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*ahem*
sacrificing one's conscience is anti-POJA poison
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Trying to POJA moral obligation is like trying to POJA abuse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> "Okay honey, you can hit me on Tuesdays". Not everything can be POJAed. Some things are non-negotiable (boundaries, values etc) and your sense of morality must be one of them....otherwise....morality becomes negotiable and consequently means nothing.
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So what is her (2BN and Suzet)'s GREATEST moral obligation to? Their H's (who insist that they do not contact OMW), or the OMW themselves? Since this appears to be a moral dilemma, where does their greatest allegiance lie? Which is the best choice of the two...for everyone involved?
Should they violate the trust that they both have labored to rebuild with their husbands after the affair? IF so, why? In order to salve their own consciences (as it sounds like some of the reasoning is alluding to)? Or because it's the 'greater good'?
Or should they follow the allegiance that they swore to their own spouse? Should they focus on maintaining their own marriage first?
It's a moral dilemma...period. There is no "one size fits all" answer here. You can't condemn anyone for making EITHER choice...IMHVO.
Now...if either of them were refusing to contact OMW after their spouse insisted that they do so...that would be another matter entirely. But this isn't a clear cut choice that is a simple one...otherwise we wouldn't all be looking at this.
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Owl, they do not have a "moral obligation" to not anger their husbands. They do, HOWEVER, have a moral oblgation to tell their victims what they have done to them. POJA does not ever mean sacrificing one's morals to avoid upset. POJA was never intended to be a sacrificial lamb for the duties of conscience. They still have a MORAL obligation to tell their victims.
Let's say I steal some money from my neighbor's purse. My H insists I do not confess; just let it go. Does that somehow absolve me of my moral obligation to make amends?
Of course it doesn't and it would be silly to argue otherwise. But that is what is being argued here to my amazement.
POJA was never intended to be a sacrificial alter for morals and matters of conscience.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I see your point Mel. But I've also got to say that your 'stealing money' wasn't a betrayal to your H...just to your neighbor. He wasn't directly hurt by your actions...he wasn't betrayed by your lies. You're not working on rebuilding your relationship with him.
It's not about 'angering' their H's. It's about betraying their trust again by going directly against what the H's have asked.
They have a 'moral obligation' to help their H's recover and heal from the affair. ANY kind of contact that has to do with OM that the H does not agree to can be a setback.
But I do see your point too...like I said...this isn't cut and dry.
And personally I don't see any sense in anyone berating them...they're simply caught between two difficult choices with (to them at least) no clear path.
We've all given them excellent reasons to take various plans of action...and they've asked for clear guidance from SH. That's all we can do...from here it's up them to sort out and make the choice and act on it.
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Trying to POJA moral obligation is like trying to POJA abuse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> "Okay honey, you can hit me on Tuesdays". Not everything can be POJAed. Some things are non-negotiable (boundaries, values etc) and your sense of morality must be one of them....otherwise....morality becomes negotiable and consequently means nothing. [color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]
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What about this: Ephesians 5:22-23
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. When a wife submits to her husband, she comes under his covering and protection. I feel my greater obligation is to submit to my H.
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... after you submit to God 2B
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Owl, making amends to the betrayed spouses is not a "betrayal" of their husbands, the affair was a betrayal. If my husband demands that I violate my conscience, he is betraying me, though. There is no conflict of interest here. NOT telling the wives would be a betrayal of their own conscience and moral obligation. And they can't hide behind that obligation under the guise that their husband doesn't like it. That does not absolve them.
Of course it is difficult, but not because there isn't a CLEAR PATH. There is a clear path that is only muddied with rationalizations and excuses. No one would argue that it is EASY to do the right thing. But, if we only do the right thing when its EASY, then we can't really claim to have principles at all.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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As is often the case Mel...we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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... after you submit to God 2B And I HAVE submitted to God. I have repented of my A and turned from my sin. Again: Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
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And I HAVE submitted to God. I have repented of my A and turned from my sin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and make amends with your victim .... I get the feeling you are really getting close to something wonderful in your life 2B .... but that it will require you to be very brave ! just a feeling Pep
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Acts 3:19
19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, Repent ---- turn to God. Repent---- Turn from sin. Sins-----wiped out.
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do you apologize when you step on someone's toes in a line? "OOPS... sorry." or <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> do you repent silently? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Pep,
Stepping accidentally on someone's toes in a line is not sin.
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so, it is ok to apologize for not sinning but when you screw the OM, and betray his wife- you don't have to make ammends?
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When you steal money from your neighbor's purse, do you return it and confess your sin OR do you pray silently and go on your merry way?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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you apologize for a simple accident but not for sin? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If this were the sin of gossip ... and you found out I had spread gossip .... would you advise me to stop gossiping or would you advise me to stop gossiping and confess & apologize to my victim? My victim might be able to stop some of the damage if he knew....???? PS ... I am not kidding about the "something wonderful" comment ... I have a little fore-knowing once in a great while (embarrased to admit this) go buy a lottery ticket, SOMETHING is coming your way .... and it's GOOD !
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Suzet,
you said next time you will tell her- so did 2B. Next time happened for her- did she tell- of course not- she is not planning on it. I doubt she would tell if her husband said ok.
But, you can tell that next time really means nothing.
It didn't for 2B will it for you?
I seriously doubt it.
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there was a story about a guy...
who hit a little girl with his car one afternoon after leaving a little happy hour...
on a busy city street..
though he was not drunk nor impaired....
it was HER 'fault' she ran out in front him ..
he did not see her
he could not see her......
it was totally the nine year old faults
yet she was paralyzed....
through the grapevine he heard of her injuries...
even though....
everyone said you did'nt do ANYTHING
it wasn't your fault...
the police cleared him...
the insurance company cleared him...
his associates at work told him not to worry about it...
his friends said...silly girl....not your fault....
yet he came to the point that he could not function to well anymore...
no sleeping
no eating
no rest
no peace.
he went to his finance...
she said go to the little girl...
he retaliated in anger..
why I didn't DO anything..
everyone says so...
I am innocent.....
he raged...
go see her said the woman ....
and he did...
he went to the hospital and in the hallway he met two angry parents ...though they couldn't say ANYTHING to him..
he really hadn't done ANYTHING to her....
he saw them...
he begged them to let him see her....
they stepped aside...
he went to the girls side...found her paralyzed in traction....
she looked at him...
she said...
I KNOW YOU
and I know why you have come....
why? asked the man...
To tell me you're sorry....
the man started crying and told him how very very sorry it was...
the little girl said that everyone had told her that he would not come,....but she knew he would....
she said that she knew that he would need to come...
he said I'm sorry...I didn't MEAN to hurt you...
she said ...
I know you didn't....and I am glad you came....
I want you to be at peace...said the little girl....
the title of this story is penance...
and it is cheesy...and sappy...but this post has lead to some deeper issues...
it is an ACT of penance....
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