Star,

I was wondering if I could get some sage advice? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You posted to me on another thread:





You make some wonderful points about how ethical it is to tell the OP’s Spouse, and I agree with all of them. I’m not here saying that it’s ethical to keep the information from them. (I’ve struggled with this issue for years myself, by the way). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

However, I know you counsel couples that are dealing with affairs, or have dealt with affairs and other marital conflicts.

Let’s say you’re talking with a couple where one has had an affair. The affair is now over, and both spouses are committed to try and recover. After you have presented the arguments above to them, and one or both of them still refuse, or do not want to expose or have anything further to do with the OP or their family, what do you do then? You’ve given your arguments and they still say no. They understand the ethics. They say they tried to POJA the issue. They brainstormed, but in the end they could not come together in an “enthusiastic agreement” to tell the OP’s Spouse for whatever reason.

Do you stop counseling them? Or do you at least keep working with them on the “Basic Concepts” and “4 Rules” etc. so that they can make their marriage stronger?

I’m not debating whether it’s a moral issue.

I’m more wondering if a couple doesn’t want to do it (or one person in the marriage doesn’t want to do it), does that ban them from ever having a strong and healthy marriage?

Does their marriage not come first, since they are the ones here now getting help? Or are they just bad people and don’t deserve any more guidance? Does that truly make them evil? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

And I know people here have given the analogies of crime, embezzlement, abuse, etc. I just feel that those are completely different issues altogether. Of course, if you see a crime take place you should report it, but breaking the law and infidelity are two separate things in my opinion. I know some people feel differently, and they are entitled to their opinion. But I just don’t feel that way. (One of them you can go to jail for, the other you can’t).

I just want to know straight from a counselor here (Star, if you may... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), if you would still work with this couple to help them make their marriage better despite their refusal to tell the OP’s spouse?

I guess, to get to the crux of the matter, am I an evil person for not exposing my wife’s affair six years ago to the OM’s wife even though it was over and done with by the time I found out? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I was so hurt then. I fell into a deep depression, and my wife was so remorseful. She ended the affair with him and told me about it even when she didn’t have to. We wanted to recover, but we didn’t want any more “outside” problems to interfere with that. I thought I was protecting my wife at the time because she would be, in the eyes of the OM’s wife, the “other woman.” I didn’t want that woman to come roaring into my wife’s office and make a huge scene, call her a “slut” or “home-wreaker”, or do something even more drastic like trying to hurt or kill her.

My wife, by the way, told the OM about Marriage Builders, and suggested that he look at it and also suggested that he tell his wife what had happened. He replied, “I don’t think my marriage would survive if she knew.”

I then made it clear to him that if anything ever happened again between them that I would tell her what happened. He was so scared of his wife finding out (especially from me) that he has not had anything further to do with my wife. I, in effect, used it as a tool or weapon to keep him from trying anything else.

And it has now worked for almost six years. The affair is over. It has not rekindled. My wife no longer has any feelings at all for the OM. We feel we have recovered. We are closer, stronger, and more intimate today than we have ever been in the nearly 17 years we’ve been together. Every so often we actually do sit down and talk about our needs, whether or not we’re love busting each other, etc. We also do talk about and try to follow the “4 Rules” as best as we can – although the Rule of Time is always tough for us! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

But I guess I’m now wondering. Am I a bad person? Is my wife? Do we have no place here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

-HD

Bump for Star*fish...

Or anyone? Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller?

Well HD this is a pickle.

Put yourself in the OM's BS shoes for a minute.

Their M is damaged and she may not know why. It may be because of the A.

She may have had suspicions and has been agonizing over how to find out.

You and your FWW have the pieces of the puzzle that she does not have.

Not to be harsh but his poor W is a BS and may not even know it. You were able to use her as a bargaining chip for OM to leave your FWW alone.

The question I always ask myself is how would I feel if I was the other person.

So now I ask you how would you feel if the OM's BS knew and you were clueless?

They have problems you can bet on that but she probably doesn't know what the real problem is.

So Hurting Deeply, to be really calous for just a moment if I may, you have sacrificed the other BS using them as a bargaining chip so to speak and you want to ask this question?

I don't think for a minute either of you are a bad person but you have sacrificed another person for your own gain. You have justified an immoral position and an immoral choice at someone else's expense.

Hurtingless and BigK,

Thank you for your responses.

And to Star,

Sorry I called you out so publicly. I didn't mean any harm! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I am in a pickle. I have put myself in the OM's Wife's shoes a thousand times. This is the one last chapter in this whole mess that I have gone through that has still not closed.

I know in my heart, one day, I will probably tell her.

I just have to figure out myself when and how...

-HD

HD....I never saw this post until just now. I have to take my little boy to a golf camp, so I can't respond at length right now but I will later. I just wanted to clear up one point....I am not a counselor. I completed most of my training as a marriage coach and passed IAC exam....and I mentor some couples. I hope to finish my training and get my final certification or MSW at some point...but that's been put on the back burner for now because of my recent move.

The short answer to your question is: No, I don't think you're an evil person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Yes, I would continue to coach a couple who didn't expose, though I'm sure I would also continue to encourage them to get full closure. I honestly believe that restitution and recovery for both marriages requires transparent honesty all around. That doesn't mean there are no exceptions....but they are rare.

HD,

I've got a few minutes....so let me speak to some of your comments:

You make some wonderful points about how ethical it is to tell the OP’s Spouse, and I agree with all of them. I’m not here saying that it’s ethical to keep the information from them. (I’ve struggled with this issue for years myself, by the way).

I'm sure that it has been difficult for you, and you wouldn't be asking questions if you weren't struggling about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Let’s say you’re talking with a couple where one has had an affair. The affair is now over, and both spouses are committed to try and recover. After you have presented the arguments above to them, and one or both of them still refuse, or do not want to expose or have anything further to do with the OP or their family, what do you do then? You’ve given your arguments and they still say no. They understand the ethics. They say they tried to POJA the issue. They brainstormed, but in the end they could not come together in an “enthusiastic agreement” to tell the OP’s Spouse for whatever reason.

No coach or counselor can "make" a couple follow their advice. In the end....the couple has the final decision about where they follow through or do not. Now a coach could refuse to guide a couple who chooses to ignore their advice....but both the coach and the couple is free to make choices. Personally, it would take far more than just refusal to expose *for me* to drop somebody.

Do you stop counseling them? Some coaches might....none of the ones I know would probably. Most coaches don't even suggest exposure at all....even to the BS....this is one of the controversial portions of Harley's strategies. It's one I think is highly effective and that I believe in....but it's by no means the standard that most (even sucessful) marriage coaches/counselors/clergy use.

Or do you at least keep working with them on the “Basic Concepts” and “4 Rules” etc. so that they can make their marriage stronger?

If you're asking me *personally*....I'd say "yes"....I'd keep them working on strengthening their marriage.....and I'd probably keep on bringing up ethical issues surrounding exposure too.

I’m not debating whether it’s a moral issue.

Me either.

I’m more wondering if a couple doesn’t want to do it (or one person in the marriage doesn’t want to do it), does that ban them from ever having a strong and healthy marriage?

No....I don't believe it does because at least that marriage has the benefit of honesty and openess. Both spouses know the truth and both have made an informed choice about being together. However....I think it does prevent the *other* marriage from being strong and healthy. You might ask why that's a concern? Why should anyone care about the affair partner's marriage? I can think of a couple of good reasons. One is that if the OP's marriage is strong, it protects not just your marriage, but other marriages that the unfaithful spouse may threaten along with more pain that might be dumped on his/her spouse. Infidelity can become a habit....especially when there are no consequences. As a marriage advocate....I know the effects of infidelity are far reaching (spouses, children, families, communities). It would be nice if we could "contain" it so that it didn't hurt so many people but I don't think secrecy is the way the do that.... secrecy is what feeds infidelity....keeps it alive....fuels repetition....silently enables it. A long time ago....victims of sexual abuse never told...they kept it a secret because of shame and fear of retribution. Many even wanted to protect their abusers because they were friends or relatives. That secrecy was responsible for many more children being abused because the abuse was never "outed". The dynamics are not that different with infidelity.

Does their marriage not come first, since they are the ones here now getting help? Again....no coach will "make" someone follow advice. But here's the thing....I don't think it's an either/or proposition....exposing doesn't mean someone isn't putting their marriage first. Every couple gets to make a choice about how they'll handle this issue. Again....make an informed choice....and that means taking a look at both sides of the issue.

Or are they just bad people and don’t deserve any more guidance? Does that truly make them evil?

Well not by my thinking.

And I know people here have given the analogies of crime, embezzlement, abuse, etc. I just feel that those are completely different issues altogether. Of course, if you see a crime take place you should report it, but breaking the law and infidelity are two separate things in my opinion.

I know some of the analogies about crime do seem very far removed from infidelity. Let me try something a little closer and see if you feel the same way. What happens when you protect a child from the consequences of their actions or bad choices? Are they more or less likely to repeat the same destructive behavior? We start out as children with small trangressions and poor decisions. As we grow...and the stakes become higher, the consequences grow with us. What is amazing is that whether you're talking about not doing your homework....or embezzlement....the learning process...the raising of consciousness....is frighteningly similar. Life is designed that way so that we learn and grow through recognizable patterns. If your child harms his sister....how do you respond? You might punish them. You might ask them to pray for forgiveness....but you're also likely to ask them to apologize to their sibling. why? Because facing your victim is part of the learning process. It's part of what prevents you from doing the same thing again. It's ALSO part of what allows you to overcome shame which can be crippling. And it has some value to the person that you hurt. By the same token....if your child had a partner in "crime"...he and buddy egged a neighbors car....would you go to the other's child's parent? Would you want both of them to face the neighbor and clean his car? Yes....adult issues are more complicated and generally carry heavier penalties than children's issues....but is the restitution and recovery process really that different?

I know some people feel differently, and they are entitled to their opinion. But I just don’t feel that way. (One of them you can go to jail for, the other you can’t).

In the end though....aren't they all destructive decisions? Don't they all have natural and sometimes legal consequences? Is the learning process after any of them really much different? Yes....they are different on one level....but they are also the same too.

I just want to know straight from a counselor here (Star, if you may... ), if you would still work with this couple to help them make their marriage better despite their refusal to tell the OP’s spouse?

Once my certification is complete....yes! I would absolutely still work with that couple. I think there are very few counselors who would reject clients on those grounds alone.

I guess, to get to the crux of the matter, am I an evil person for not exposing my wife’s affair six years ago to the OM’s wife even though it was over and done with by the time I found out?

No....you aren't evil. That doesn't mean I agree with your decision....but I respect your right to choose even if it goes against my belief that it really "ends" the affair. It ends YOUR end. Not their end. And as long as their end is "open" it doesn't have enough closure to me.

I was so hurt then.

I sure know how that feels.

I fell into a deep depression, and my wife was so remorseful.

Yes.....I was in bad shape...couldn't eat, sleep....my husband had remorse too. In my case....there was no spouse to tell and I knew nothing about the dynamics of infidelity anyway. It was an awful time that I can understand having no desire to revisit.

She ended the affair with him and told me about it even when she didn’t have to.

I think that's very cool....and is evidence of remorse.

We wanted to recover, but we didn’t want any more “outside” problems to interfere with that.

When someone goes "outside" of their marriage....one of the unfortunate consequences is that the invite the outside INTO their marriage.

I thought I was protecting my wife at the time because she would be, in the eyes of the OM’s wife, the “other woman.”

She was the "other woman" chere. You can hold that in secrecy but it won't change the reality...yanno? I completely understand the motivation behind wanting to protect someone you love from censure or punishment....especially when they appear to be suffering. But think about how we learn, how we make restitution. As a parent, if my child forgets his homework on the kitchen table....I can protect from facing the consequences of going to school without it by getting in my car and dropping it off. But what I've taught him....is NOT that he's responsible for his homework....but that I will "protect" him from his own carelessness.

I didn’t want that woman to come roaring into my wife’s office and make a huge scene, call her a “slut” or “home-wreaker”, or do something even more drastic like trying to hurt or kill her.

If the OPS is a known mental case or violent person....then that would be one of the exceptions I'd be willing to consider. However, she'd probably be within her rights to face your wife....even at work.....and give her a piece of her mind. If your wife is entitled to destroy the sanctity of another marriage, as well as her own.....why isn't the OPS entitled to say "I hate you for this and you hurt me! How could you?"

My wife, by the way, told the OM about Marriage Builders, and suggested that he look at it and also suggested that he tell his wife what had happened. He replied, “I don’t think my marriage would survive if she knew.”

Nobody thinks their marriage will survive. I sure didn't. It's amazing how many do in spite of those dire predictions. Marriages survive infidelity....but they don't survive neglect.

I then made it clear to him that if anything ever happened again between them that I would tell her what happened. He was so scared of his wife finding out (especially from me) that he has not had anything further to do with my wife. I, in effect, used it as a tool or weapon to keep him from trying anything else.

The only thing "missing" from that tool....is honesty for everyone involved. I'm so very glad it worked for you....but I admit that I feel badly for the OPS because she didn't get the same choice that everyone else got. Her marriage is vulnerable, her husband is a liar and she doesn't even know which makes her twice as vulnerable...that would bother me...and keep me from completely healing...for me. *I* would have some trouble putting that information in an ethical framework. I'm not saying you should feel the same way...I'm expressing why it wouldn't work for me.

And it has now worked for almost six years. The affair is over. It has not rekindled. My wife no longer has any feelings at all for the OM. We feel we have recovered. We are closer, stronger, and more intimate today than we have ever been in the nearly 17 years we’ve been together.

This is great news and I'm so glad to hear it. But obviously....it's still somewhat triggering for you...still bothers you....if it didn't....you probably wouldn't be posting about it.

Every so often we actually do sit down and talk about our needs, whether or not we’re love busting each other, etc. We also do talk about and try to follow the “4 Rules” as best as we can – although the Rule of Time is always tough for us!

Yeah....that pesky rule is hard for us too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But I guess I’m now wondering. Am I a bad person? Is my wife? Do we have no place here? Do we have no place here?

Gosh....no....I sure hope there's a place for you here....otherwise this space is not being utilized for it's purpose....to help people recover their marriages and heal from infidelity. Good people make bad choices all the time HD. We're imperfect, vulnerable and fearful. One of the things that helps us create the most happiness is to care for each other....not just the people we love....but those around us too. As I mentioned earlier....infidelity has a broad wake and is destructive on a larger scale than just one BS and WS.....the families, the community, the children.....all in some way suffer. There's nothing wrong with putting your marriage first....but I honestly believe that children are most protected when we protect other marriages as well as our own. Honesty doesn't destroy marriages....lies do...selfishness does....neglect does.

Recently, my cousin was struggling with this same issue. She asked me...."What right do I have to ruin this woman's life? Or cause her unnecessary pain?" My answer was "Laura, you already did that....intruded into her life, her marriage and caused her pain. She may not yet know why her husband doesn't kiss her or spend time with the children....but make no mistake....being ignorant of why is no blessing!" Most of the time HD....the reason for not telling is less about the OPS....and more about avoiding shame and guilt. The question is whether avoiding shame or guilt....which have a PURPOSE (learning to make better decisions) is a necessary part of our learning process as human beings. If my little boy takes something from a store....I wouldn't just put it back....I'd march his scared little body up to the manager's office and let him face the people he affected. If he hits another child....he's going to tell that child he's sorry and see their tears or the censure of that child's parent. I want to protect him....I desperately want to protect him....but I know that I'm responsible for making sure that he's compassionate towards others. We aren't islands....our ability to relate to other people in compassionate ways is what creates the kind of "non-contradictory joy" (joy without guilt or consequence) that is the fruit of real happiness.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

star*bump for HD

Thanks Star, for your reply. It was very informative and insightful...as always! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The child analogy you give is a good one...one that I haven't thought of. Interesting...

I know one day, in order for me to bring closure to this, I will end up telling her...

I just have to figure out when and how.

It's just so hard under the present circumstances. You see, they still work together in the same office (but in different departments). They occasionally will "bump" into each other at times (the elevator, etc.) but they really have nothing to do with each other any more.

What if his wife were to leave him, and he would no longer have the "fear" of going after my wife again? That went through my mind all the time when I was debating with myself whether to tell her.

I do feel bad at times "using" the fear he has to keep him away, but at the time I was so confused and hurt that I thought it would be the most effective means in making sure the affair was truly over. I now know that it is over, but back then I was, of course, very concerned that it would start up again.

I feel bad for her. I know she has a right to know (if she doesn't know already), but on the other hand I feel that the consequences of me telling her now could easily spin everything out of control.

My dilemma in telling her now is this...

My wife is a VP in the company, and has worked there for 14 years. I started a business a few years ago, and while it was profitable for a while, this year has been a struggle. I just simply cannot afford anything that would jeopardize her employment there at this particular time - we're doing a major remodling of our house ($400K +), and if she were to suddenly lose her job over something that happened six years ago (this probably would be a job-killer for her) would just really put us in a bind right now financially.

Her job gives us a steady income (six figures), medical benefits for us and the kids, 5 weeks of paid vacation time a year, and she enjoys a great amount of "flexibility" when it comes to her hours (ie - leaving early to pick the kids up from daycare, etc. when I can't).

If she were to have to start a new job now, that would probably entail a 60 or 80 hour/week commitment for a position that is commiserate with her salary level. That would one, kill us in the "time" department, but two, would make it harder on me when it comes to making sure the kids were picked up on time and also getting my business back to where it should be.

She's been carrying the load (financially) for the last year or so, and I'm trying my hardest to change that. Up until recently, I was the major "bread-winner" in the family. One of the reasons I changed careers was that my "old" position required a tremendous amount of travel, which had the effect of keeping us apart, which led to us not meeting our needs as well, which...led to...well...you know...

I was giving her great "Financial Support," but I was not there to meet her other needs. Now, I'm in effect, starting over. I'm home now, which she likes a lot, and she has been tremendously supportive of my new venture. NOT ONCE, has she nagged me or harped on me for the lack of income that I once had. She knows and understands what I'm trying to do, and she supports it 100%. She's just glad to have me home and being there for her and the kids.

But that has not stopped ME from putting a great burden on myself to produce the same amount of income that I used to do on my own. I know I can get there, but I fear that if I mess things up now it could create a certain amount of chaos that could easily spin everything out of control!

This last May, I was hospitalized with a "minor" stroke (a TIA). After a battery of tests (MRI, CAT Scan, EKG, Cardiogram - basically the works), there is no lasting damage to me (thank God!), but still at 37 that's an awful young age to have that happen! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I have been under a lot of stress lately. My wife does say I put a lot of it on myself unnecessarily -- I should probably listen to her more when it comes to that! (duh!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I think Suzet's thread really struck a chord with me, and I probably shouldn't have gotten so emotionally involved with it. Being here for almost six years now...I should have known better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This issue of contacting or exposing the OM's wife is the one chapter that has never been closed for me. I've kept it hidden and removed from my consciousness simply because, well, life has moved on. We recovered. Our marriage is fixed - I still have these "personal" demons, but our marriage is strong. (By the way, I know and understand that my wife also has her own "demons," ones which I cannot fathom or even relate to - but that's a separtate issue).

I don't know if it will take her (or him) leaving the company before doing it, or if, (God forbids) the affair were to re-ignite, but I know I will probably in some manner let her know what happened sometime in the future. I know she has a right to know. I just wish it didn't fall on my hands...

<sigh>

Thanks for your reply. Sorry for the my long-winded and totally incoherent reply! Hope you didn't getting a headache reading all of this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I really do appreciate it.

All the best,

-HD

HD~~

I've known of your situation (of course, after all these years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) and have read this thread and I am left with a sense that you know, somewhere inside yourself, that in spite of all the best intentions, this is not settled.

First of all -- Thank God you are healing from your TIA. ((((HD))))

HD, I am a firm believer in your body sending (sometimes very strong) signals, often by way of illness. I'm not saying you cause it in ANY way, but that your body is only acting on the information from your brain. Do you believe that, too? Please, be very careful and listen to what your body is trying to tell you. I don't profess to *know* what it is, by the way. But I think you do.

In my opinion, HD, your wife is playing with fire by staying in the job where the affair took place, ESPECIALLY with the affair partner still there. I have made no bones about my feelings of working with the OP - since my affair was with a co-worker, as were several of my ex-H's.

I believe that you should NEVER continuing working with the affair partner NO MATTER WHAT YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES.

HD, my life has been very, VERY difficult over the last ten years -- most of it is because *I* made some very poor decisions immediately prior to, during and after my affair. I wasn't in my right mind, that's for darned sure. I stayed at a job I'd waited seven years to get permanently. Imagine that -- I worked temp in THAT PARTICULAR job and FINALLY got it permanently, at a nice salary with benefits. I was set for life. Except... I ruined it by having an affair (remember, a very short affair with one time of intercourse). There are consquences to having an affair, and when the affair is in the workplace, one of the consequences is that you must leave your job. I stayed for months after and my first marraige had not a hope in ****** of healing while I was there. Just the act of getting in the car to go to work ripped my (then)H's heart out daily. We both believed I had to stay - that the OM should be the one to go. But the bugger wasn't going anywhere ... and isn't it ironic that when I finally left, he applied for and got MY JOB.

As far as exposure: I believe you should ALWAYS tell the OP's spouse. If it's that scary (a fear of violence, for example) I would advocate an anonymous letter (the worst choice, but better than nothing).

And listen, I have no desire to beat you up, and I certainly don't think you're evil or bad. What I hear from you, though, is that you are holding the weight of the world (emotionally) and that you are doubting the way that you've handled the ending of the affair.

After six years, I'm sure your wife is sincere in saying she harbors no residual feeling for the OM. My concerns are not about her sincerety, and certainly not about you, who I have oodles of respect for... as you know.

But this situation, the whole darned thing, is NOT SETTLED for you. If it were, you wouldn't be asking for our opinions. Please don't hear this as any kind of attack. I'm honestly worried about you and your family.

What is your gut saying, HD?

Thanks for your kind words, NB.

(WARNING – this is a little long…) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I think you’re right about my body sending me some signals, but I’m not sure that what happened to me was completely about my wife’s “affair” per say, or the issue of closure on it. There were other factors that caused me to essentially “break down” as it were for a while.

My father told me earlier this year, in April, that he had recently learned that his father (my grandfather) was NOT his biological father. He was, in fact, the child of another man that my grandmother was married to at the time. My grandmother ended up leaving this man for my step-grandfather, and moved to America in the 40’s with my Dad and they raised him as their own. (My Dad was born in Ecuador, as were my grandparents). They immigrated to the United States in 1946. They also later had 3 other children, but my Dad is the only one that was not actually my grandfather’s biological child.

This hit me like a ton of bricks. My grandfather on my mother’s side passed away before I was even born, so my grandfather on my Dad’s side was really the only grandfather I ever knew. That, coupled with my business problems, I think just pushed everything over the edge. It’s hard when you go your whole life thinking you are of one “bloodline,” only to learn later that you’re not. It was even harder on my father, as you can imagine, because he had gone 61 years before learning the truth. My true grandfather, I learned, passed away many years ago in the late 70’s.

My step-grandfather used to be very special to me. Growing up I had a very special relationship with him because I was his only “grandson.” The rest of his grandchildren were girls, so he would always treat me a little different. Later in life, after I got married, he was thrilled when I finally had a son so that I could “pass on” the family name, his “heir,” etc. All this time I was thinking that I was passing on his blood, when in fact I have now come to realize that this is not true.

I felt a little “duped,” “betrayed,” etc. And I guess I was partly thinking that why is it that I keep having betrayal hit me throughout my life? It’s not fair! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My step-grandfather confessed to my Dad partly because he was dying, and he wanted to, I guess, finally “clear the air” and get this secret off his chest. He passed away shortly after telling my Dad this last Spring.

My grandmother does not know that my Dad knows. My grandfather made my Dad promise this, and he has decided to respect his wishes. She’s 91 now, and has alzheimer's. She still remembers me and most of her grandkids, but she sometimes has trouble remembering her great-grandkids like my son and daughter. My Dad would just like his Mom to live the rest of her days in peace. She doesn’t have much time left anyway. She is mourning the loss of her husband deeply, and I feel her will to go on is not very strong any more.

A week after my grandfather’s funeral, I started feeling tingling sensations and numbness in the right side of my head, arm, and leg. I was having dinner one night and my wife looked at me and asked, “What’s wrong with your eye?” It was drooping, and I suddenly realized I could barely see out of it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

She took me to the hospital, and after a battery of tests and exams over a few days with a neurologist they concluded that I probably had a minor stroke, or TIA. Fortunately, there is no lasting damage, but now I do have to watch my stress levels, and they got me on some medications that make me very tired at times. I also have all of these follow up appointments now, etc, just to watch a make sure nothing else happens.

I’m rambling way too much here! Am I giving you a headache yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Telling my life story over the internet... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Maybe it’s somewhat therapeutic, yes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Maybe all of this it is tied in some way to what my wife did, and the issue of “closure” that you discussed. Maybe it’s just tied more to the issue of “betrayal” in general. I did feel a little hoodwinked at the secrecy that surrounded my grandparents in their early years. I had no idea that my grandmother was married to another man, had an affair, left her husband for my step-grandfather, and then had other kids and stayed married to him for 60 years!

I can imagine the OM’s wife feeling that same level of betrayal. I’ve felt it, and I’ve felt it now for a few times. I honestly don’t know if she knows or not. I don’t know if he’s had other affairs. I don’t even know if she’s had affairs of her own! I know nothing about their marriage.

When I first came here, I remember you, K, Just Learning, Kathi, HGBrawner, Oswald, WAT, Peppermint, Lor, and many, many others helping me out a lot with useful advice on dealing with our recovery. Back then, I remember that Dr. Harley’s material was not as clear on “exposure” to the OP’s spouse if an affair was already over and done with.

I know his thinking has “evolved” over time as he counsels new couples and comes to new conclusions. Back then, I know “exposure” to the OP’s spouse was used as a tool if you were dealing with an “active” affair and were trying to negotiate the end of it through “Plan A.”

But I wasn’t in Plan A. I was already in the recovery process. Oswald and I were actually going through the same thing at the same time. We both went round and round in many threads about whether to tell the OM’s wife (or in his case, the OM’s fiancé). In the end we both decided to remain silent – to respect our wives’ wishes. Were we cowards? Maybe. It’s a question we both struggled with for a long, long time. I remember this Thread from WAT on dealing with exposure way back in 2001 – by the way, you “agreed” with me on that thread back then, young lady! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

There is also this quote from K on exposure and “Marriage Building” in general that I found very useful:



K has posted many similar things like this over the years, and I’ve always treasured the advice he’s given to me and to others.

Oh well. This novel should end somewhere.

If you’re still reading I congratulate you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know I have some “unfinished” business as far as this exposure thing goes. I know that my gut says that she should know.

I just wish I didn’t have to be the messenger.

I’ll figure out something someday.

But for now, I guess I’ll just have to be a little like Scarlet O’Hara – “I’ll think about that tomorrow…”

<sigh>

-HD

Isn't K great? I just love him! Yes HD....there are some great ethical reasons to expose affairs to the OPS....but the idea that one size fits all....is one that I'm not on board with. Even most staunch supporters of complete exposure will tell you that there are "exceptions". That doesn't negate the general "rule".

It's problematic to say here on the board "you're an exception" (and I'm not sure you *specifically* are) because folks who are new may surmise "So am I!!!!". However.....YOU and your wife alone have the final say so in decision making for YOUR marriage.....even about this.

I admit your situation scares me mightily (for you) because your wife still works with this man. I understand the financial challenges....and still....I think....Hey....this guy was willing to change jobs to spend more time with his family....why can't his wife change jobs to preserve the marital safety/his peace of mind.... even if it means a little financial belt tightening. For years my husband stayed in a job that kept him away from home at great "expense" to this family. When he finally LOOKED for something else (while he still had a good job) he discovered he could make substantially more and be home too!!! Why can't your wife look? Are you really enthusiastic about her being there? If not....why are you tolerating it?

I am so angry, HD. I wrote a loooooooooooooooooooooong post that somehow got **poofed** out of existance.

::::::

I admit, I don't have the time or the energy to recreate it.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR..................

In the meantime, HD, just know that I am sorry about your health issues and totally understand your family issues... I wrote for a half hour on deathbed confessions, the blood that's running through your veins (why, YOURS, of course!) and finding out secrets from before you were born.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, again!

I'll be back...

Yes Star, K is great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know that new people coming to the board should NOT follow my example (especially without counseling from the Harley’s or someone else familiar with their material). That’s usually why I don’t bring up the particulars in my situation when I’m posting with new members -- simply because I don’t want to give them the wrong impression or think that my way will work for them.

My way does not work in the vast majority of cases.

My road was a very long and arduous one (mentally) – longer than it would have been had she left the company right away.

At the time, however, I really felt that my job was the one that was most damaging to our marriage simply because I was never there (I was sometimes gone from home 2, 3, or even 4 nights every week). It was just too much.

I was also the Master of Love Busters during the times I was at home! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I really learned a lot about myself coming here, buying and reading the books, and learning about all of the concepts and how to become a better husband -- how to better meet her needs, and not do things to deplete her Love Bank. My wife, thankfully, also “bought in” to the concepts. She’s become a better wife, and in the process we’ve built a very strong and successful marriage and recovery.

Yes, I still in some ways wish she were not working with him. I know the risks...

However, at this time, yes, at this moment I AM enthusiastic about her being there simply for the reasons stated above (money, flexible time, medical benefits, etc). She did interview with a couple of other places a few years ago, but didn’t find anything that came close to all of the things she has now.

Right now, medical benefits mean more than anything considering all of the things I have going on (as well as the peace of mind in knowing that my kids are covered if anything were to happen to them).

I’m hoping that one day, when I’m able to contribute more financially to the family, that she will be able to leave and do something different. We’ve discussed this before, and even now she’s starting to feel a little “burned out” in her current position and company.

She’s hoping that my venture will pay off, and when it does she can then say “goodbye!” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We’re working towards that.

-HD

You would think that after, what? 6-7 years you would learn how to post without it going **poof**? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Waiting for the reply now...you're officially on the clock... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-HD

HD - I asked you this on another thread - maybe you never saw it, but can you confirm once and for all that Harley himself told you it was OK for your wife to continue working with OM and also that Harley himself told you exposure to OM'sW was a matter of POJA?

On the clock, eh?

Funny... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Well, HD. First of all, I'm not sure that I can recreate what I said... and sometimes I wonder (when weirdo things like that happen) if I *should*... you know, "everything happens for a reason" and all that jazz.

What I want to say to you about the deathbed confession, in a nutshell, is this: Deathbed confessions, to me, are often cowardly and built by fear -- I would guess mostly fear of going to ******, or something along those lines. I hate the havoc they bring, and think it's very unfair to those left behind.

Also, this story of yours leaves me feeling like a straddler on the fence, because I really do believe and practice honesty with everyone I know. But there are times when brutal honesty brings more harm... like in this situation (in my opinion). It may have eased grandpa's conscience, but at what cost? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

At the same time, your relationship with him as you were growing up STILL REMAINS. Those memories are tarnished now, but they are still there if you'll let them be. I hope you will be able to find a way to hold on to the good memories because they were so precious to you at the time.

I understand about family secrets. My family has a doozie and it's still being hidden in some respects. My place in the dance is solid - I am in the middle. I'm between one person who is dead and one person who is living... and I am afraid to tell the living person (my mother) what I know. It's a long, convoluted tale that I won't bore you with and it has nothing whatsoever to do with infidelity - it's about MY identity... which is why I said to you: The blood that runs through your veins is YOURS. Not your dad's, not your grandpa's, not your biological grandfather's... YOURS. Do you get that distinction? It was a hard one for me to grasp for awhile, but it's the truth.

I am sorry too, for your health issues that sound quite serious. It reminds me of a woman I once knew who had a situation very similiar to mine (second marriage, living out of the country, sacrifices made, regrets, etc.)... just one day - pop! - stroke. Like yours, a small one, and also like you, young, and the doctor said - "no more stress"... but how do you stop the stress in a horribly stressful situation? She said to me that she just HAD TO stop the stress - whatever that meant. And so she did. She no longer ALLOWED the stress. How does one do that, I wondered? I think I know now, though I still have problems DOING it.

HD, I would hate to see either of us (or anyone else in stressful situaitons with health issues) succumb to the worst case scenerio when we had the POWER all along to change it. I am speaking to myself, too, as I am awaiting a very scary medical test within the month. When we're alone, all alone, what do we believe, and what are we willing to do to make our beliefs reality? I'm not talking about Tony Robbins 'get rich' stuff -- I'm talking about our core beliefs and how we let "stuff" keep us from doing what we KNOW to be the right things to do.

I did read that thread, by the way, and you may have noticed that I *did* say (under my alter ego - BWAHAHA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) that I believe that the OP's spouse should ALWAYS be told. It's the others that we tell our secrets too that sometimes have no reason to be in the loop...

Ideally, you and your wife would have agreed (or would agree now) to end her job and tell the OM's wife, yes even now so many years later. A POJA is the ideal and one which I really believe in... but I have, at times gone outside of the POJA myself and said, "Sorry honey, but I don't care what you think, I'm doing it" (whatever "it" is). I have done that when I've felt very strongly about something, especially concerning my children.

I agree with star and am concerned for your long-term recovery, HD. I don't doubt that both of you sincerely feel you have recovered. I don't doubt that right now you are doing what you think is best for your family.

I just don't agree that it's the best course of action. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And I think by virtue of the fact that we're discussing this, that there must be a little seed of doubt in your mind, too.

HD, you've had a lot to contend with over the last little while. Take care of your health and your family but please keep an open mind about the possibility of somehow letting the OM's wife know about her H. I'm glad to hear that you're working on other employment opportunities. I really, REALLY hope something works out for you guys on that front, too!!

BigK,

Of course he did not say it was "okay" for my wife to continue to work with the OM. That's not the ideal situation for...well...really anyone. I don't want to give you, or anyone here, the wrong impression about that.

As to your second question, I was wondering...have you read everything on this thread? A lot has been spoken here about the POJA...

Marital conflicts, in general, like things such as exposure with the OM's W, was something that should try to be POJA'ed first before doing anything else. Then, as you can see in the post above with the quote from "K" (who also counseled with the Harleys), if you are still intent on doing it even after you can't brainstorm to an "enthusiastic agreement," at least you tried to follow good "marital behaviors" that will help you down the road. You are being honest with your spouse without going behind his/her back, and giving your reasons (in a thoughtful, non-LB way) why you still feel compelled to do something (like exposure) even if you can't reach an "enthusiastic agreement." (Radical Honesty). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As a general rule, it's usually a good idea to start with the POJA first before taking any unilateral actions that can cause further damage to the marriage.

Practicing good marital behaviors (even during bad times), helps you down the road in strengthening your marriage and making you a better spouse.

-HD

I understand HD and yes I have followed this thread.

I guess I am SPECIFICALLY asking whether or not YOU PERSONALLY counselled with the Harleys? or have you just gleaned your opinions by reading his books and this site?

NB,

Not much time – so I’ll have to make this short. (Gotta get home – you know, Family Commitment)? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah...deathbed confessions. Ugh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You know, while it hit me hard at first, when I saw my grandfather for the last time in the hospital, the day before he died, I knew that I still loved him as much as anything. I hated to see him go.

My childhood memories of him are filled with a lot of joy. He was exactly the kind of lovable, likable, and laughable grandfather any kid would want to have. Plus, he had a really cool swing set in his backyard when I was little. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

He took me on many trips when I was young. He took me to Ecuador to meet some of my relatives, also Spain, Mexico City, Acapulco, Miami Beach, Disney World. He will always be “grandpa” to me even if he’s not my “blood” grandfather.

You’re right. The blood that runs through my veins is mine. No one else’s. I’m more and more coming to peace with it. I even gave one of the eulogies at his funeral.

My wife, I think, was also a bit shaken. She’s very much into genealogy, and wants to one day research my Dad’s side of the family for our kids’ sake – so that they can know where they came from. This new revelation just throws a little wrinkle into the whole thing because of the “secret” grandfather. And, also, it being in Ecuador makes it even harder to trace. We also have relatives in Spain, but they are more distant.

I know, on one hand, that we have “recovered” as a couple. Our marriage is strong. We follow the “4 Rules”, etc. There’s no doubt in my mind about that. She is actually my “rock” right now.

It’s more of a mental recovery on my end. While I can sit back now and think and talk about my wife’s affair with a somewhat “detached” emotion, I can still remember the pain and the hurt even if I don’t feel it now. I can post and help others going through their initial phases of recovery and not feel any type of “hurt” or “pain” that I once felt – even though I can remember what if feels like. Does that make sense? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think this whole episode with my grandfather conjured up some of those “betrayal” feelings – that and Suzet’s thread, which I should have probably stayed away from. (Even though I wish her the best, and I hope she and her H continue to work together to resolve their issues).

As you said, I have a lot to contend with right now. No stress? Yeah, right! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

As a matter of fact, this Sunday I’m actually flying back East to Philadelphia for a few days to meet with one of my suppliers (I live in Southern California). I still do travel occasionally, but not nearly as often as in my previous job. I just gotta keep the stress level low – and keep taking my medications.

And just take some deep breaths every now and then….

All the best, NB! And thanks for all of your wise words and support!

-HD