your wife is still in contact with OM, with no intention of changing this. you are not in recovery, she's still basically in the affair. it's just on "keep warm" heat.

It's not about how much is "enough".. ANY contact is fatal to your marriage. especially DELIBERATE contact like she is doing.

the "start over", sounds just like the usual pre D-day "I need space to think" junk.
oh and definately, the "freedom to do whatever she wants to do" screams that. That says, "I want to bring my relationship back with the OM, but I dont feel free enough to do that while you and I are still living together."

Techie - Thanks for the post. I've known for a while we are not in recovery.

I've always known that contact and our time apart is the issue or the roadblock to us even starting any kind of recovery.

What I'm having doubts about, is does the continued contact really matter in our sitch. I guess FWS's could help answer this for me. Since D-day over a year ago, I've known NC needs to happen before anything else. And I've kept thinkin if MT will just end contact, we can see what will happen. Now, I'm starting to wonder if the damage is so great, if what is wrong inside of MT is so bad, that even if she ends contact, it still want do anything towards M recovery. I say this, because the continued contact is minimal, and it is hard for me to grasp that doing away with that is going to clear things up.

rprynne...

Can an alcoholic have just a small drink every now and again and be considered a recovering alcoholic? UM, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Yes, in your situation or any other, contact matters...MATTERS MAJOR...Any contact...What part of No Contact doesn't MT understand? She will NEVER withdraw if contact doesn't end and therefore she cannot make a clear and rational decision when it comes to you and your marriage...IMO, you must draw your boundary on this...Something like I can't be the husband of OM's girlfriend, because the reality of the situation is that is exactly what you are...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W - I know and I get your point about a recovering alcoholic.

I get a little lost for words to ask the question. I guess I'm asking, does no contact make that big of a difference in the WS's attitude or willingness to work on the M?

What part of no contact does MT not get? First, that "feeling" like working on the M and contact are not mutually exclusive. I would not call what she is doing is cake eating. I would call it hedging her bets. OM keeps contacting her and she doesn't want to burn any bridges. Just in case things don't work out between us. She wants to maintain contact until she feels like ending it. She does not see it as sequential (end contact, then you will feel like working on the M), she wants to see it as simultaneous (maintain contact, placate in your M, and eventually one will win out).

Good to hear from you, rprynne...



This precisely what it is...you have nailed it. As long as she holds on to this "safety net", she'll never commit to doing the hard work of recovery.

That's why NC is going to be critical...she can't work on your marriage otherwise...she won't. She will sabotage those efforts...consciously and unconsciously.

Sounds like you are still in Plan A at this point. How's your love bank balance?

Yes rprynne, contact and a desire work on the marriage are VERY connected...She is still attached to him...Why in the world would she wish to work on the marriage when she is still involved in a fantasy relationship? Think about her rationale here, she comes back to you, and there are pieces to pick up, amends to make, REAL WORK...Ah, but if she chooses him, everything is "clean", she continues in the fantasy, no apologies, just "smooth sailing"...and yet, somewhere I believe that MT suspects that we are right, that she will NEVER find another you, that she will always be herself whether that is with you or OM-you can't run from self, and that eventually she will get to the same type problems with the OM relationship, only worse, because he will NEVER see her as you do...She's torn I suspect, part of her wants the fantasy, part of her wants the security of real...The catch is she must give up OM entirely to find out how much value there is in you and the marriage...Trust me, as long as contact continues she won't see the marriage as a viable option...And yes, she is cake eating...call it whatever you choose, but that bridge must be burned in order for your marriage to stand a chance...Basically that is what marriage is, a burning of bridges for OP's...A marriage doesn't allow for OP's in the picture, it is intended for 2 people only...nowhere in the vows does it say, "until someone better comes along"...and know this...HE ISN'T HALF THE MAN THAT YOU ARE RPRYNNE...He is a predator that is in the business of dating married woman...the lowest of low...And if MT is reading here, she would be wise to read what's going on on the boards lately...Affair marriages are producing a whole new crop of BS'-and it is sick, because now they want help to recover their sham marriages...So MT, you should know, no matter what baloney that OM tells you, there is strong proof that what he will do with you, he will do to you...END CONTACT!

What blows my mind rprynne is that MT is a very intelligent seeming woman...It seems that she could grasp the concept if you work the program, the program works for you...Especially since she claims to not be a romantic...the logic of it all should appeal to her...and yet she continues to try to do it her way...over and over and wonders why she keeps getting the same results...I'm certain that this baffles you too rprynne...I don't know what the Harleys are counseling you to do, but I'd say that it is time for you to draw your boundary...me or the OM...not both, not ever!

Mrs. W

Low - Good to hear from you. Hope you are doing well


If only MT would realize this. Its the unconscious part that's the killer.


Still in plan A. My love bank balance is good. SH always ask that question. I always answer the same way - "Steve, I'm a machine" He laughs cause he knows its true.


IMHO, you shouldn't find it embarrasing. Its human nature, its risk management, etc. But, as you found out, its a catch 22. MT does exactly this. With her new job, the OM, etc., if I blow up and say get lost, voila, she's got a prepackaged new start. The problem is all the work she is doing to protect that "bridge" burns her bridge to the M. And all this bridge building, maintaining, and putting out fires, does not allow her anytime to get IC or even do a little introspection.


Spot on - I agree.


Agree again. And it kills me she will not recognize this about OM. MT and I are 37 and OM is near 60. There A involved getting together whenever he was in town. She says we are a lot alike and he didn't do anything special. But he is okay with her doing whatever she wants and has no expectations about how she treats him. Argh!!!!! Like this is not a guy saying whatever it takes to keep her around. She says OM has another GF now. Again, though, don't want to burn that bridge. I did tell her this weekend, "look, I'm not argue with your emotions, but I think your emotions are leading you to make some bad choices. MT, I'm not saying you can't find a good man, but you aren't going to find one better than me."


MT is very intelligent. She grasps the concept of the program, intellectually. She just lacks faith in the program. I suspect there are many reasons for this.


Harley says keep plan A'ing until I don't want to anymore and the go to Plan D. I've drawn my boundary, its enforcing them that I seem to have trouble with. Any advice on how to enforce them is much appreciated.

I would file for divorce on the grounds of adultery...Name the OM in the paperwork...That is enforcement of boundaries...Me or OM, make your choice MT...It's sad rprynne, but your hand is being forced here...The way I see it, your Plan A is done...How much more abuse can you take? You've done all that you can, IMO...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W - I hear ya. I guess its just some advice I'm not willing to follow right now.

For what its worth, I don't feel abused. Just frustrated.

that's weird ... I was thinking the same thing about you !


Pep

rprynne...

I agree with Pep on this...MT has both of you exactly where she wants you...What is her motivation to choose? Sounds sick to say, but I think it's time for you to "bring the pain"...JMVHO...

Remember, if you change nothing, nothing changes...

Mrs. W

rprynne...

During my affair, my GREATEST FEAR was that Mr. W would file for divorce-Woulda knocked me off a fence into a pile of cake batter...REAL QUICK LIKE...There are, of course, no guarantees, but no matter what, you could begin living your life again...Think about it...

Mrs. W

Pep - Ouch. But can you be played if you know you're being played?

It is very hard to distinguish between being played by someone and someone who is indecisive. Do you disagree?

I just don't know which it is with MT. SH thinks its indecisivesness. Some days I agree, others I don't

MT fears that I will file for a D. If I did file, she would cry a little and then say, oh well, time to start over with my new life. She my regret it from the very first day, but it would take her years to act on that regret. Just like it took her years to say she thought anything was wrong with our M. She just isn't wired that way.

This is why SH does not advise filing for D or plan B as a plan to knock her off the fence, etc. He advises doing that when I no longer want to married to MT. So, I'm not ready to go there until, I decide I don't want to try to recover the M. Once I file, there will not be a recovery.

I'm fully aware of what this position means in terms of me being able to live my life. But the only thing I can't do right now is start another R with a woman. I'm okay with that for awhile.

Mrs. W - right after D-day, were you indecisive? If you were, don't you think that is a possibility that MT is indecisive. Wouldn't you think that the reason why she stays indecisive is because she moved out?

It's not my business what you do & why you do it ...

what I hope is

you are learning the life-lessons you are supposed to be learning

and I wonder ... what ~are~ you learning? (about yourself .... NOT about WW)

In what ways has this experienced profoundly changed you and made you a better/worse _____? (what?)

Why does she fear this???

The reason that MT is indecisive is because contact hasn't ended...She has NEVER fully withdrawn from this affair and worked the program...

Of course, I am not going to go against the advice of SH...But rprynne, how long will you continue to tell SH that you are doing okay, that your love bank still has a balance? It isn't some exercise in masculinity...You need to preserve some of your love bank for the hard work of recovery, if you ever get there...Again, JMVHO...

Mrs. W

Pep - I've learned a lot. The single biggest thing I've learned is that you can't control someone else. Next biggest I've learned is to not derive your happiness from someone else. Third I've learned their is no point in spending so much time planning on the future that you forget the present. Probably a lot more stuff. I've also learned a lot about R's.

Mrs. W

Why does she fear it, cause in some twisted way, she doesn't want to decide, but also doesn't want her options taken away.

I agree with you about contact and never fully withdrawing. I also think it is because of her job. Its like I said above, she still does not view it as she is risking everything by contact and staying away. She views it as should she risk everything to come back to the M.

I'm really not doing some exercise in masculinity. I don't know if I have the words to describe it, its just I'm not burning through the cash in my love bank very fast.

rprynne,

I think your wife and my ex-wife are alike in some ways.

I definitely believe that indecision is a factor. And, indecision in my ex-wife's case comes from wanting "everybody to be happy" and "everything to be OK". She cannot chose A or B because she really wants A AND B. It is very difficulty for her to let go of any person who has ever been close to her.

Part of it relates to a fear of death - that irreversable (on earth) break of contact. She (my ex-wife) says that she is fears abandoning somebody just as much as she fears abandonment. So, she searches and searches for a solution that will allow her to keep everybody, to avoid abandoning and being abandoned. She is tormented by this choice.

Is that what you see in your W, rprynne?

-AD

Yes, I see...Do you?

Mrs. W

AD - I think yes and no. Not sure if it is a fear of abondment or not. I do know she is afraid to disappoint people. And I think this does drive her indecision.

I also know that she thinks she has lived her whole life doing things she does not want to do for fear of disappointing someone. I believe this is why she struggles with much of the MB principles and any advice she recieves here.

Generally people say "fake it till you make it". However, she feels she did that for most of our M and it didn't work.

Mrs. W - Not trying to be obtuse, but I don't follow you on this last post.

You mention MT's fear of disappointing people. And elsewhere about guilt and not being able to 'say no'. And she says she doesn't want to feel awful anymore. Seems like a lot of self esteem issues there.

In this thread, you didn't mention what her main ENs are? How about admiration? In your 'Plan-A' are you meeting that? My WW has bad body image, pitifully low self esteem, and a gigantic need for praise and compliments, and being the center of the universe. There has been so much damage done in our M, and she is making so many bad choices, admiration is particulary hard for me to give now.

Wishing you the best,

- WG