WG - Yes, self-esteem is certainly a part of it. MT does rank admiration very high.

Even with all that has gone on, I don't really have any trouble showing my admiration. There are many things I admire about MT and I let her know it.

The snag seems to be, my admiration doesn't count. MT doesn't seem to accept it from me. The same is true for affection.

I don't know how to describe it, I guess it is like a compliment you get from a life long friend or a family member. Its nice, you say "thank you", but it doesn't have the same impact, because somewhere inside of you, you are questioning the sincerity of the compliment. You devalue the compliment, because its something they are supposed to say.

It has been this way for years and has been very hard for me. After many years like this in our M, I quit doing it. It just seemed like MT didn't care about it. After D-day, I realized I was wrong and that obviously, she did care about it. I try to meet that EN, but most days, I still feel like she doesn't care if I do it or not.

Maybe because her family is very closed off emotionally, she has learned to not believe compliments from people who are obligated to compliment.

One of the things she told me was that when she started going out alone with her friends, she really liked all the attention she was getting. I understand that. But I don't understand why she doesn't like the attention I give.

I really don't know if this is my problem or hers. Do I do it the wrong way, or is it something she has to change about her self? But it really puts a strain on things. I think she really likes these "unobligated" compliments. I think in her mind, OM is still "unobligated" so his compliments mean so much more to her. But, that is chalked up to "sparks" rather than the fact that she has not placed him in the "obligated" category. When I make a compliment, I imagine it gets chalked up to he's just following the MB program.

Its very hard to talk to MT about this. How do you say to someone, he's saying the things you want to hear. Without hurting there feelings. I mean, I'm sure OM, says some things to MT that are true. MT is worthy of praise in many areas. But I'm also just as sure that he says things to her not because he really thinks that or believes that, but because he has an objective.

People try to all others on this forum, they are just saying what you want to hear, but its hard to convince them.

Best of luck to you

Just two more bits.

(1) Compliment/praise your wife in front of other people. It
counts more than affirmation/admiration in private.

(2) Always be sincere and not trying to 'manipulate' a response towards yourself. You compliment because it is true and she deserves to hear it.

- WG

Well, its been a few weeks, so I'll give an update on my sitch. Things are mostly the same.

MT is home now, so that's a nice thing. She didn't bring her car home, so most likely that will mean a trip away again in the near future. She got home about a week and half later than she orginally said due to work.

Not sure about continued contact. I'd say its probably 60/40 that there's still contact. Although MT did tell me that she would not have contact with OM.

I've had my own sort of personal breakthrough in the last few weeks, so I'm doing great.

well stay strong and keep us posted

So last night I told MT I thought she was acting selfish, was being very prideful, and basically had her head up her a**.

Also told her that while I did my fair share to contribute to the way our M was, I have doubts that her unhappiness was caused by the way I treated her, but more being caused by something in her.

Also said that while she will say thay the A was a mistake, I don't think she has really deep down internalized that, and that IMO, she seems to feel like what she did was okay and she did "what she had to do" to try and be happy. I asked her if she ever really took a moment to actually think about what changed in herself to go from someone whose actions were consistent with a strong moral compass to someone whose actions aren't. Also told her that I was pretty sure she was still in contact with OM.

I told her that it looked like her solution to this unhappiness was avoidance and worse that she knows this, knows it won't work and just doesn't care. At least doesn't care enough to do anything about it, and that attitude seems to have translated to how she feels about making me unhappy. She care about my well being, but not enough.

I told her that I did not know what I was going to do, but felt pretty sure that if her action plan was apathy and avoidence that a D was inevitable.

I told her it seemed like she was experimenting with different things to try and feel happy and she views getting a D as just another experiment.

I told her I really wish she would try and get some help for herself, but I was done bringing up the topic, but was willing to talk if she wants to.

I told her all this in a calm and as respectful as I could manner.

Her response was to say very little, we had a pleasant evening, SF in the morning and then she took the first flight out of town for work and to see if "she could get her head out of her a**.

Anyway, dear friends, she seemed to take much of what I said as a LB. Could anyone let me know your opinions as to if what I said was an LB?

Sounds like a huge O&H session to me, Ryp...

The only LB I see (without my glasses) is this...

"seems to have translated to how she feels about making me unhappy."

You seemed to say that she's responsible for her own happiness...and I didn't understand your statement that she COULD make you unhappy.

Looks like from your post you owned all that you perceived, thought, believed and felt...other than this.

Radical honesty, with ownership, (using those true "I" statements) isn't an LB...though it may feel like one. Being true to yourself and your marriage, respectful through sharing all you are, is intimacy. Can feel threatening--it does threaten distance, avoidance and fantasy.

And am I reading you wrong or not...sounds like you stated from your intent to be honest and connect, not to get her to do or feel anything...

(I don't know how to call the getting her head out of her derriere part...so I'm not touching that one. You already know all of this...so you tell me if that was respectful or a DJ.)

LA

LA - Thanks for the feedback.

On the part about translating to how she feels about making me unhappy, I can't remember if I said it that way or not, but what I was trying to convey was more about meeting my EN's. Her apathy towards taking care of her own self has shifted towards an apathy towards me.

Yes, it was my intent to be honest, and I was not trying to get her to do anything. It was just to let her know that it looked to me like our M was in a decaying spiral and I just did not see how there was anything else I could do about it.

About the location of MT's head, yes maybe that was a DJ. But I just don't have the vocabulary to express it another way. I had said to her that I thought I was now beyond the tragedy of the A. That the A would not be a roadblock to me for recovery. I said that I thought the real tragedy was that now, we were at a place where while the work would be hard, what we needed to do was so simple. Just a few things needed to be done to even see if our M could survive. She replied (and this is what makes me define the location of her head). "Like what?" After over a year of this.... I said, NC, honesty, time together, and to actually care about each other. Anyway, maybe me thinking that way is a DJ.

It looks like I've lost some of the support I used to get from these boards. I guess most just disagree with my plans or think I'm delusional about my situation, or am too stubborn to listen to any advice. I really don't think I am, but I do miss the advice.

FWIW, I know that continued contact is a real possibility. I know if contact is going on, I'm just being played with and I'll need to file for a D. What I struggle with, is 1) I don't like making decisions with incomplete information, and 2) I would hate to give up on my M if the problems are solvable and other than contact, I don't see any other problem that does not have a solution.

I don't have any hard evidence, but just a few things here and there. The hard part for me, is that there are always other legitimate explanations for MT's actions.

What I am really struggling with is just deciding whether all this time apart is really for her work, or is all that a ruse just to continue contact and/or her to get a head start on her new life. I could make a long list to support either. I mean is she just scared to quit or lose her job because things may not work out with our M, or is all that just a convienent excuse to avoid or delay. I can't help feeling that she won't be happy until she makes her work her second or third priority, but she won't make her work her second or third priority until she is happy. Until then, she is just chasing her tail, and our M wastes away. Or maybe those feelings I have are just wishfull thinking.

I know you said this almost a month ago ....



... and feedback might be a moot point at this time .... but here is feedback anyways....

it's not that she doesn't LIKE attention from you

attention from YOU is expected .... and therefore she discounts it as a ~sure thing~

you are always at her beck-and-call ... she can rely on you to give her a lift ... without much effort on her part

this is, in short

being taken for granted as in failing to appreciate what you do because it requires zero effort on her part....

think about it

Pep

Pep - I understand what you are saying and I agree.

I don't think the feedback is moot, I just think it is incomplete. No offense.

I get that I'm viewed as the safety net, that I will always be around and give, etc. I understand that even though I have told MT these things are not true, it has not registered. Nothing seems to create a sense of urgency for MT.

Its not that I miss that point. But the advice I receieve is either go to plan B or plan D. Which is directly opposite of the advice I get from SH. Which makes matters very confusing. SH basically says because we have no kids, because MT does not need a place to live or financial support from me, because MT and I have lived independent lives rather than interdependent lives for the last 5 years, and because MT has a very long history of taking a very long time to decide on things, that a plan b or the like isn't going to have any positive impact on my M. He says it will have a positive impact on my own mental well being, and then asks how am I doing. I say fine. Then he says, well, keep up with plan A until you aren't fine. I ask isn't it unusual that I'm fine. And he says, not at all, and its basically because of all the reasons same reasons. We don't have kids, I don't need MT for financial support, and we've been independent for years.

So, with regards to my M, it kind of leaves me in a take it or leave it position. But once I leave it, I better be sure, because it will be gone.

So most of the advice I get is you've done enough, so leave it. I believe I have done enough to satisfy my own desire to feel like I've done all I can. But, I'm also not ready to throw in the towel today. So what do I do in the interim. Doing the same things I've been doing doesn't seem like the right idea. So, like I said in another post, plan B or plan D is the nuke, what are some less destructive weapons. Maybe their aren't any, I don't know.

My plan A is definately backed off from what it was before. In fact, when I first started it was a plan to get her to come back to the M. Now, I just do what I feel like doing.
When she looks nice I tell her, when she's home I make plans about what I'm going to do and invite her. I don't make plans for something she likes because she is too inconsistent on actual showing up. I only call her during the week to see how work is going because she said she liked that. She calls me about 5-6 times a day. She talks to me for about an hour on about half of those calls. I don't sit around waiting for her to call, but I don't ignore her calls. I send her flowers about once a week, a card about every other week. I tell her ILY at the end of our phone calls. etc. All, pretty normal things that I like to do. All things I did early in the M, things I had quit doing before her A.

So what do I do different? Do I do anything different? Or do I just wait until I'm sick of it and file for a D.

R

I was not giving advice

I was attempting to answer your question ....

... are you really wanting a response , or is this a rhetorical question?

How are you doing?

Pep

Pep - I know you weren't giving advice, it was feedback. My response was more of a "yep, got that, but what do I do about it" All the extra fluff was more around is there any advice out there that is not "go to plan B", cause I ain't doing that today and want to understand what else can be done.

So, its not really a rehtorical question. It's more of a does anybody have any good ideas.

How am I doing? I'm doing quite well. A friend came up to visit me and we had a good weekend. I keep busy with all kinds of stuff. I'm not stressed or depressed. Just would like to make sure there are no other things that could have a positive impact on my M that I could be doing.

Well, it's been about four months since my last update so I thought I would provide one.

I'm about 99.99% sure NC is in place. I don't have any evidence of contact. The main things that keep me from 100% is 1) that MT has still not moved home and committed to at least giving the the M a try and 2) Occassionally, MT still is not truthful about some things.

MT comes home about every other weekend and we have a good time. While she is gone we talk on the phone several times a day.

On the positive side, I have seen several changes in MT that are for the better and help to improve our R. I keep trying to improve myself, as well.

On the negative side, we don't talk about our M or where its going very much. If we do talk about it, I have to bring it up, and the answer from MT is generally the same. She basically says sometimes I have feelings for you, but its not enough for her to to make a big committment. (i.e. move back home, no matter what happens with her job).

MT says she doesn't think she has it in her to be good in a R with anyone. Basically saying that whenever she cares about someone, she can't help herself but to start doing whatever it takes to make them happy. In the process of this, she becomes miserable. Because of this, she thinks its best for to never have a long term R with anyone. My proposal to this problem is that perhaps she would be happier correcting that desire to sacrifice and try to find some balance.

Anyway, we are at somewhat of an impass on this. It seems that MT is waiting for some "romantic" rush of feelings to overwhelm her and make her want to come home. I'm of the opinion that this isn't going to happen via phone calls and weekend visits. (perhaps I'm lacking in wooing skills).

As the time moves along, I can feel this situation is slowly eroding away any chance of recovery. My emotions seem to go up and down and range from sadness to rage. Most of the time I'm okay, but I'm nearing a string of events (my birthday, our anniversary, the holidays, New Year), that make it hard for me to accept not having a "plan" in place to address the current situation.

Anyway, that's where we seem to be. If anyone has any ideas about how to breakthrough our impass, I'd love to hear them.

I don't know of any way to force Margie to do anything against her will, but I am glad to hear she is doing well. Take care, friend.

Thanks Mel.

Would it be acceptable to you if this was the way it always stayed?

Is her moving home and resuming a traditional marriage important to you?

I have a girlfriend who lives in a house across town from her husband (no infidelity on either side) and they seem quite happy together. Finances was their big problem (she's an accountant, he is careless with money) and now they have separate everything.

If it is not what you want I might try a 180 to see if it snaps something and cause the reaction you want.

She seems to be ruled by her feelings, so if the 180 gives her the feelings she may be losing you, it might be the ticket.

Unfornuately people ruled by feelings respond to what the rest of us might view as manipulation.

I don't know, just a thought.

Its an interesting question. I don't think I would accept the current situation as how our M would always be. However, I would have been okay with it for a while if the A had not occurred.

What do you think about trying a 180 plan? ...in answer to your question about changing the impasse?

She sounds like she still has the WS virus stuck in her craw. That is a selfish statement.

Move forward and ask her in the future if her lifestyle depended on someone who would be there for her only short term and then she had to go find another caregiver, how often would she like to go through all that trouble? If she can't comprehend that question, you know where you stand and it may be best to cut the ties.

RE: You have the same question to answer. I would not put my life in the hands of someone that fickle.

JMHO,
L.

rprynne, didn't you ENCOURAGE her to pursue her traveling career? And weren't you averse to my suggestion that she quit her traveling job because it would interfere with her career aspirations?

It seems to me y'all fully agreed on her career, which means living apart, so I am confused about the nature of your complaint. Isn't this just the life you chose?

Weaver

To some extent I already have and have had a 180 plan going. Not by proactive choice so to speak, but more from exhaustion, I guess.

IMO, for whatever reason, MT has become comfortable with deprioritizing me or our marriage. This is not to say she doesn't feel bad or guilty about it. She does. It just doesn't mean enough to really change anything. MT and I have a different view of this. She would say that she faces many opportunties every day to choose me or our M, and most of the time she chooses me. I just have a difficult time seeing it that way.

Another difficulty is that MT does not believe that she put any effort into her A. According to her, the OM was not exceptional in terms of finances, looks, etc. He just listened to her and had drinks with her. It was just magical I guess.

I guess ultimately I feel like if I was going to do a 180 plan, it would be intrepreted by MT as "oh, he's okay with how things are".