Mel -

No, not really. This is not work travel, her job is in Houston and my job is in Ohio. When she took the job I was told it was 3 months in Houston and then back home. Then I was told there's been some changes and I'll be back home in 3 more months. Then I was told more changes, a couple more months. Then I was told, couple more changes and I'll be home in July and if there are any more changes, I'll quit my job. Then when July showed up, I found out there was still contact and MT said she wasn't ready to move home, didn't want to committ to the M and felt like she was rushed into the MC. Now I've been told, I'm so close to year end bonus, I don't want to do anything drastic until after the end of the year.

I'm supportive of MT's career, but I didn't sign up for this.

rprynne, huh? She is not living there for work? She is living there for PLEASURE and not business? Now I am even more confused!

But I think my point is that you have agreed to living apart to accommodate her career and have set that precedent. When I had mentioned earlier that living apart was an invitation to an affair, you had responded that you had agreed to this to support her career. You rejected my suggestion that she find a new job because that wouldn't be supportive. It looks like to me that you have signed on for this.

I disagree that I set a precedent. Her job was with a Houston firm that she said had plans to open an office here. I rejected that she find a new job under the premise that her office location would be here. If MT had said I have a new job in Houston and I won't ever be located in Ohio, I would have certainly agreed she should quit her job.

Orchid - I don't know if its WS virus or not. I do understand your question and have asked MT similar ones. She usually says, I don't know I've never thought about that. Which, I have a hard time believing.

So you didn't agree to live apart in support of her career? I must have misunderstood you; my bad.

It may be too late for this now, but I will leave you with a Harley article that you might find helpful:


Entire article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

You have already shown her that you are okay with how things are. Maybe not by your words but most certainly by your actions.

She is after all still there, and you are still in Ohio waiting for her to come home.

Mel - I don't know how to characterize our current living apart. I guess it depends on how one defines temporary. Did I agree to living apart on a temporary basis with the assurance we would be back in the same town again? Yes. Did I agree that temporary should be defined as two years? Nope.

Anyway, I 100% agree with the article you posted. Wish I had seen it before my M got in the mess its in. Now that I know it, I just don't know how to get the horse back in the barn so to speak.

Isn't life ironic sometimes. When you think your are doing the right thing and it turns out to be unimagineably the worst thing.

I can remember back in 2003, when there was a dramtic shift in MT's overnight work stuff. At first, I was trying to be supportive of MT's career and accepted it. Then it just kept getting more and more. Then I start complaining about it. Then somewhere along here MT starts the A and is gone even more. I complain even more. On and on. When she quit her old job, I was relived. I thought maybe we could sort some things out. At this time I didn't know about the A or that MT was unhappy with the M. Then three months later I get ILYBNILWY. A week after that the new job. I think I'm doing the right thing by agreeing to her move, but it was the worst thing I could have done. Couple of months later I find out about the A. I look back and see all that we were doing, that we thought was the right thing was bad for our marriage.

What I really struggle with on these boards is how some people can read the above or look back on there past choices and some people see it so clearly as the bad marriage, the unromantic marriage, the loveless marriage, etc. was caused by our choices. While other people seem to completely reverse this and say we have a bad marriage, a unromantic marriage, a loveless marriage, etc., which caused us to make those choices.

But MT and I seem to be on oppossitte sides of this perspective. MT waiting for our M to become good, romantic and full of love, then she will move home, employ PORH, POJA, etc. Me saying, move home, employ PORH, POJA and the M will thrive.

Its my birthday today, so I'm getting caught up in evaluating everything.

This is why I said earlier that MT is be driven/governed by feelings as most WS's are.

Someone who is driven by feelings reacts to feelings. ie the magic with OM with no effort

If you appeal to her feelings, not using your logic which won't work, but with acitons designed to invoke the feelings you want to prompt a certain action on her part.

The 180 comes to mind again. Try doing the opposite of what you are doing now, and see what happens.

Weaver - So what do I say when she asks why I didn't get her any flowers? Or what do I say when I don't get her an anniversary gift? Do I not talk to her when she calls me?

No, I would talk to her, by all means but start to act a little mysterious, like this:

Cut the convo's short and be the first to hang up (unless this is what you have been doing and if so, do the opposite)

Return her calls after she calls three times - the old three to one ratio but not so obvious that she catch's on.

Be upbeat for no reason.

Stop asking her to come home.

Be somewhat evasive.

Go out
, if you are usually a stay at home kind of guy.

Get a new hobby, something fun where it's possible girls may be.

In other words, shake things up in her mind and provoke some feelings of jealousy in her, but in a very covert way.

Appeal to her feelings.

I don't care what anyone says on this board, there is no more powerful an emotion as jealousy and or worry that you may be losing someone (the cake might be disappearing, oh no!) and in your sitch I think it is time to employ it, before it is too late and she decides she can live without you just fine in Houston.

And then after you have gotten her attention, you bring in the boundaries - i.e. Not wanting to be married but living separately any longer.

Hot dang! I almost forgot to sing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> -

Happy Bday to you,
Happy Bday to you,
Happy Bday to you,
Happy Bday to you!

Weaver - Thanks for the Birthday wishes and the advice. I'll see what I can do to change things up.

This is kind of an update and then a request for any advice.

MT came home over the weekend. She actually drove her car back from TX this time, so I view that as at least symbolically she intends to stay for a while. She says she will be staying at home from now on and only making occassional business trips. According to her, she would like us to "try and start over and see what happens" She has agreed to going back to following the plan SH set up for each of us before she end the MC, but does not want to go back to MC.

So, I am viewing this as an oppourtunity to try and get our M on the road to recovery so to speak, but I have some questions that I hope people can provide some input and or perspective. These are in no particlar order.

1) I'm viewing this as an opportunity to for us to reconnect. For me to start "wooing" her so to speak and for her to do the same. Should I view it this way? What do I do if she doesn't do her part.

2) There are still several open questions I have from the past. I know she wants to just "move on", but there are little things I would like some answers to. For example, I know she bought a gift for OM (right after d-day) but she denies she did. I don't care so much about the gift, but why continue to lie about it? I'm afraid if I don't get answers to things like this and I wait, then when I do bring them up she will act like, "I thought we were all through that" Is there any chance that if I just leave it alone for now she will come to me and clear these types of things up?

3) She is still not open and honest about things. She is still not transparant about things. For example, she changed her password to look at her cell phone bills. If I ask her for it, she will reply, oh I thought you had it. If I say how could I you changed, she will say, I thought you would have some way to get it. If I say I don't she will offer to provide it, but then delay in some fashion until I let it go. The thing is, I know even if she was still in contact, she wouldn't use her cell phone for it. So why give a care if I have the password or not. How do you approach this dilemma? It also makes me not want to be open and honest with her. Should I be open and honest with her even though I feel she is not doing the same?

4) MT still tries to "manage" me. Very much like when the A was going on. Avoid conflict, just get along, try to keep every thing very superficial. Should I go along with that for a while?

5) Last, EN's. I don't think MT has been honest with me about her most important EN's. I think she has listed what she thinks sounds right as EN's for her, or the EN's she feels she has a right to ask to be met. As an example, she lists affection as very high, yet doesn't seem to care at all when I show her affection. This creates problems because I feel like I work my tail off to meet the needs she listed, but it doesn't matter to her. Alternatively, she seems to be working very hard to meet EN's that I listed at the bottom of my list, while ignoring the ones I have at the top. Should I just ask her to go over the EN's again, or is there something else I could do?

Thanks to all for your help in the past.

I know these may seem like stupid questions. But she has been away for so long, I'm not really sure what next steps to take and the roller coaster of things has got me confused. I think I'm pretty clear on the big picture, but I seem to be a little lost on details.

Any advice is appreciated.

rprynne, is she home to work on the marriage? I would ask her directly if she is. You need to know what she is willing to do to repair the damage from her affair and what her intentions are. It may very well be that she intends on doing nothing. If that is the case, you need to know this up front.

I would set up an appt with SH even if she won't participate so he can help you take steps to protect yourself.

I will post the link to Recovery from an Affair. It is an outline of what it will take to restore your marriage and fall back in love. You might also show her Joseph's Letter in order to convince her of the importance of honesty.

In answer to #5, I suspect she may have been honest about that, but she may have been getting that need met elsewhere. She was likely DETACHED from you when she answered that, which would explain why she wouldn't allow you to meet that need. I get the sense that she does not feel close to you at all.

Hope this helps, rprynne. I am very happy for you that she is back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Recovery after an Affair: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2739000

interesting...


isn't this conflict avoidance just another way to avoid intimacy?

intimacy is, by nature, filled with conflict opportunities

if you agree to this, it will be a very dry marriage

RECOVERY is HARD because of necessary conflict resolution


Pep

The words "intend" and "intentions" are somewhat the difficult part. I'm quite certain she intends to work on the marriage. If I asked her the question she would say yes. Converting those intentions into actions seems to be the sticking point. Where I go from there is where my confusion lies. I once got 2x4'd here for not appreciating what MT does. I guess someone thought I was too demanding or had too high of expectations. Maybe I am just wired wrong, but for example, if someone never lied to you when directly asked a question, but still keeps secrets from you, do you thank them for not lying or ask them to quit keeping secrets. And doing both doesn't work because when you do both, all they hear is the negative part.


Most likely will.


That is a very good observation that I had not considered. Do you think its also possible that if a need was being met elsewhere, that when we did the questionaire she would answer it in a fashion sort of like her are my top needs that aren't already being met. For example, maybe conversation is high on the list, but OM was meeting that need so she did not feel like she should list it very high. Would you recomend redoing the EN questionaire?


It does help. Thanks. I am happy she is back, but it is also stressful for me.


Absolutely its conflict avoidance. Its somewhat why I'm seeking advice. I've never avoided conflict. I like to get it out there and see if it can be resolved. But MT is very much the opposite. So do I modify my approach to things for some period of time waiting for I don't know what, maybe waiting for MT to get more comfortable or relaxed. I don't know, its what I was seeking opinion on.

if you can both get onboard with POJA ... things will get a ton better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ask SH for help with POJA

I've found it is the holy grail in marriage

Pep

hi rprynne,

i am very happy to hear she is back!!!

food for thought:


do YOU want to CHOOSE to be the type of person you want to be or do you want the type person you are DEPENDENT ON HER???

in other words... <insert 2x4 here>

Of course you should do your part and be open and honest!!!

your job is easy - just be a great guy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

regarding:
how do you KNOW? i mean do you have 100% clear cut proof?
if not, then you don't "know" and you should possibly let it go.

if you do have solid proof, have you told her exactly what you know? i mean it is either clear cut proof or not. if it is and if she knows you know, then how can she sit there and deny it, unless it is not really clear cut proof and then i suggest you re-read item above.

if you have solid proof and you are not telling her, then you are not being open and honest.

and if there is a chance you are wrong and she did not give him any gift, you could be causing damage by re-asking over and over.

see what i mean?

just be sure the issue is worth the fight.

i'm not saying if it is or not, only you know. just saying, think about it.

regarding her password...

if you want/need it. keep respectfully asking for it, DON"T BACK DOWN!! what good does backing down do? ok, so you might say, it avoids a conflict. but that's not the goal!!! does backing down give you the kind of relationship you want?

of course you don't want a superficial relationship but you certainly do want times when you guys are just enjoying each others company without heavy talk occuring. just be sure there is balance between fun time spent together and working on the relationship.

please dont JUDGE her reaction to your efforts. ask her!!!

sometimes it just takes time. you may not SEE the impact you are having on her, but that does not mean it is not occuring.

trust that if you honestly trying to meet her needs, occasionally seeking feedback (accepting the feedback she gives you at face value!!) and then respond to her feedback, it will work out.

once again, i am very happy to hear she is home and i wish you much success!!

I'm on board. She's on board too. If its the holy grail, we need some work on it.


Fair enough.


As solid as you can get without photographs or actually being there with them. Its not really this individual thing. It more relates to the bigger picture of her deciding what I need to know.



Asking just won't work. At least not right now.


Thanks and best of luck to you.