Well I haven't spoken to him. DD11 had to go get crickets for her toads this evening, so while I was at the grocery store. I have to rely on other people at this time to take me grocery shopping, so I'm sorta at their mercy as to where they take me. Anyway I texted him "DD11 will be down to get crickets-eta 10 minutes." and that was it. He texted back, but I just ignored and deleted.

He's a piece of work, I tell ya. He's all big and bad and thinks he can live without me for the first few days.....then, he starts flipping out. (Flipping out will certainly forthcoming).

I went to my Mom's for dinner, then I went into their backyard and played soccer with the girls for a while.

I feel absolutely fine. I have no desire to talk to him.

I don't think he gets it, I think he believes talking to her is just fine.....but you should have seen the speed at which the OW called back on his phone when I called it, to make sure it wasn't his boss, I mean it was like lightening.....so Hmmmmmmmm he must be a REALLY good friend for her to want to talk to him that bad.

God Bless,

-Caren

BTW, I'm sure he's going to talk real big in the near future....he loves me...ETC. But I'm determined not to give an inch until I *SEE* some results.

God Bless,


-Caren

Caren,

Glad to see you are back. I'm sorry the situation has not improved much since you were last here.

Your husband's behaviour is childish. The lying about the phone, the game with the wedding ring, he is a child of early teenage years trapped in an adults body (while he's in this affair).

Once he truly sees that you are done playing his little game, then you'll see the man inside takes control. Right now, the excitement of having multiple women in his life is working out well for him. Sure you both get upset at him once in a while, but the thrill of winning a woman back is very stimulating!

If he thinks you are really pissed and going to leave him? Heck, he'll send you a picture of you two together, or he'll show signs of doing something you really wanted him to do. The time to put the ring back on might be very soon? What kind of a load of crap is that?! He's got this game down to a science.

Everything... his anger, his explanations and his expressions of love are aimed at continuing his game and manipulating you and your emotions.

You've been more than kind enough to this man. I hope you stick up for yourself and take care of your well being, because he is not capable of doing so at the moment.

I hope you stick around. I know you felt down about what you may or may not have done correctly in the past, but nobody here has ever done things perfectly. If the methods we follow here were easy to follow, this forum would not be necessary.

Take care.

Caren,

As you can see a solid plan B may not stop a WS but it will help the BS and family deal with these false recovery issues with less hurt.

So this time around, you don't have to plan A, you don't have to w/hold LBs..... you don't have to try.... you just have to get yourself to a safe place....away from the OW and WS.

Keep your children with you as much as possible.

He needs t/d more than wear that ring. He needs to earn back his right t/b let back into your heart. He s/b making you feel like a queen not a rag mop.

Btw, call that OW's # as much as you need from his phone....that'll freak her out. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid-



LOL!!! I think she was QUITE freaked out to hear from me on HIS phone.

It's funny, I even held my temper with her. I actually wasn't even mad at her, it was just really pathetic....especially her reply "Ummmm I don't know who that is" LMAO WOW!! What a good comeback, yeah....how long did it take you to think of that one?!?!?

I'm not speaking to him, and he has the phone, so I can't exactly call her from it anymore.........but I hope she understands that whatever he was telling her about he and I....it was complete crap.

I wanted to say "Hmmmmmm what does he tell you when he's with me? Are you not allowed to call him during his weekends with our DD??? Do you think that's because she's there???!!! Or is it because I'M THERE"

Lord the girl is so clueless.

I haven't really told anyone what's going on, so my friend ran me to the store yesterday....she dropped me off because she had to go to the pharmacy down the street, I told her to pick me up out front, and then we'd have to pick up DD at Mark's shop. WELL.....I'm standing there waiting, I see her pull into the lot, and she goes STRAIGHT to his shop. I called her on the cell and said "Ummmmmmm I'm down here in front of Kroger's" She said "Oh, well I saw DD standing outside of Mark's, so I thought you were there" So she picked her up, then came down and picked me up.

When she brought me home and I was getting the groceries out of her trunk she said "What's going on?" I said "He's calling the OW again....." She said "OH YOU'RE KIDDING?!" I said "Nope". She said "OMG Caren, I went in there (She works at a popular candy store) on Father's Day to buy my Dad some candy.........She is GROSS, you are so much prettier than her" I said "Yeah well....you'll have that"

I had my former boss tell me, many months ago, "I went into Anthony Thomas Candy, and I saw her. I actually waited until she turned around so I could see her nametag......she doesn't look like a very happy person. I thought if she smiled her face might crack" LOL!!!

So anyway. Last night, a neighbor was having computer issues at about 9:30 at night. She lost her job, and she had written a resume, and was trying to get it posted on Monster.com, so she asked if I could come and help her. Well firstly, she somehow had written her resume in Adobe Acrobat......which Monster doesn't accept. The resume has to be in .doc format. She didn't even HAVE Adobe, so I said "Where did you type this?" She said a friend's house.

So I spent quite a while downloading Adobe so I could open it. I said "Your resume is in .pdf format......no job website is going to take it in that format"

Then she said her printer wasn't working....so I downloaded the software for it and tried to fix it, but it didn't end up working........long story short.....I was there until 11pm.

DD14 was still at our apartment, and I called her from my cell and says, hey, if Mark calls.....don't answer. (IMO he's lost the right to know our whereabouts). He called once on my cell.....I silenced it. When I walked in the door, DD14 was on the phone and she said "Mom, he's blowing up the other line" And so the freak out begins.

DD11 called him when we got home, because we were going to bed, and she always calls and tells him "Goodnight, I love you, God Bless you" and I could tell from her answers that he was grilling her on our whereabouts"

She was saying "We were at my friend Brittany's (The neighbors daughter)Dad" "Yes, Daddy, we just got home" "I don't know if Mommy had her cell phone, I was playing" ETC, ETC.

He HATES not knowing where we are...........ha ha.....you don't get to know where we are, what we're doing, and with whom.

I can't go to ADC today, Mom needs her car, so hopefully tommorrow.

I am babysitting for my great neice for a week, and her Mom paid me $500 so I can pay my rent. She's also going to leave me her car (My neice is going out of town for work for a week). I feel very fortunate that she is paying my rent, I was worrying how I was going to cover that.

So, I'm really pretty okay. In a few days I'll have a car, so I won't be stuck here, I'll be able to be out and about.

I'm still doing fine. Still not pining away, which makes me think that I'm awfully close to not giving a flying crap what he does and who he does it with.

I'm so much more valuable that he realizes..........and he will come to this realization eventually, I just hope it's not too little to late when he does.

God Bless,

-Caren

Caren:

Sounds like you are a lot stronger and wiser.

For clarity's sake, what made you decide to break your PLAN B from last time?

I am just going to come right and say I have read this post several times...and I keep checking the content...with the author to make sure I have it correct...

cause all I see is a lot of powerstruggling...
game playing...
emotional drama and excitement...

you find this out...

They got the phones on 6/29 and he's been calling OW again since 7/1.

so you respond with this...

I called him and blasted him.


then your next step is to....

I refused to speak to him.(

thens there's some silly thing about his wedding ring...and you rise to that bait...

Then on Thursday of last week, I check the records again, and what do I see......now he's not calling her home number....he's calling her CELL!!!!!!!!!!!

OK so now here's your SECOND confirmation he is in contact...
and you are currently married to someone CHOOSING on their own to be in contact with an OP...

and you....

I called him at work and yelled at him about it.....he said "THAT'S MY BOSSES NUMBER!!! WHY ARE YOU SNOOPING?!" I

which is ANOTHER yelling match..lots of drama...him defending..
turning table on you...(SNOOPER!!! etc)

then you have SF with him...

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what a bunch of mixed messages YOU send..

basically..you say to him...

go ahead dear...

contact the OP ...
I'm aware of it..
but I'll STILL sleep with you....

I don't get it Caren..
I don't..

I honestly don't...

where is your clear boundary..

where did you say on page one of day one of contact...

husband...YOU can choose to contact OP..all you want...what I know is that I choose NOT to be part of a triangle...

buh-bye.....

So an argument ensues and he's telling me some bullcrap and I say "Well lets call and ask her...." and take his phone. He takes the phone back and I say

oh good more drama...

all this drama really really diffuses the sincerity of you NOT controlling his contact...and only controlling you...
right>>>?????

is that what all this drama is supposed to accomplish...??

yes ???

power struggling contact..!!!
good idea

name calling...ie...liar.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

stuffing your feelings instead of clear communication..
that always works...

and throw in some SF which can now be used as weapon against you...
he can say..

CAREN if you REALLY meant no contact with OP..you wouldn't turned around and slept with me....

I told him not to call......

why..calling equals drama....
you need drama..
you like drama


caren..as far as I can see...and I am telling you I have read this post over and over...

YOU are creating
YOU are allowing
YOU are encouraging...

the game playing
the mixed messages
the unclear communication
the DRAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Oh yeah and where's that part where you say you are in plan B but there's no plan B letter...
AND
where was your plan A which comes before plan A...in these examples ???

I am speechless by the end of this post...
I don't what to say..
and I am mumbling and stuttering..

CAREN What are you DOING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and this post is supposed to be TOUGH..but smoochie smoochie for anyone who wants to lamb-baste me for it...

ARK^^

Well, he had written the NC letter, and was telling me how sorry he was he'd hurt me, that he wanted to try, and for a while, we actually seemed to be making progress.

I'm not sure what prompted him to start up conversation with her again, but it is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE. I flat refuse to let him hurt me over and over. I have taken that power away from him.

Everytime he does something of this nature, another wall goes up. So this time, with the exception of me getting a little sentimental the first day and crying, my heart is becoming impenetrable (which by the way, I'm not sure is a good thing, but it's a defense mechanism, it's almost automatic).

I don't trust his butt any further than I can throw him.....and I'm not sure what he can do to change that. Trust and respect have to be earned, and I know the WS is incapable of these things..........I don't know if my husband(underneath the WS) is even capable of all the changes that will have to happen in order for me to entertain the idea of this marriage working.

I haven't given up......not exactly, but I find myself very comfortable being removed from all of this. I can finally stay above the fray.

When I confronted him about this, I was not angry, I was not violent (as I've been in the past), I was actually so calm it almost scared me. I was very matter of fact.

I am finally in a position to be in Plan B. I have absolutely no desire to communicate with him. Why on earth would I want to talk to a liar?

I'm sure he thinks he will be able to bulldoze his way in again.......because this is what I've taught him. But this time, I have steeled my resolve, and Mimi, I will listen to every bit of advice you give me. I will come straight here with any overtures that he may throw my way. Because I KNOW that you know how to guide me, and I am so thankful that you haven't given up on me.

God Bless,

-Caren

Ark?

I see what you're saying...........and you are correct, I didn't handle it as it should have been handled, but I am trying to focus on what I did right (I know I did a lot wrong).

Are you saying there should have been Plan "A" at this stage of the game? Before this Plan B? I'm confused.

Also, should I be writing yet another Plan B Letter? Good lord he's going to have a ream of Plan B letters.

Should I write him another one?

I am thankful for your opinons, I don't want ANYONE to blast you for them. I respect your opinion, and I am not here to be coddled. I am here to finally do this the right way, which is why I am asking for your help.

Thank You.

God Bless,

-Caren

caren..

let's just start basics...

don't call something plan B without a letter...
and all this drama is NOT any good plan...


if you just came out of plan B because he met your requirements...
what did you communicate to him as deal breakers...
and did you communicate YOUR actions to his actions...

I suggest you go out ..
just the two of you...

tell him that YOU WILL be checking cell phone stuff..
that you will be expecting a lot...

AND HE AGREES TO COUNSELING
and if he doesn't deliver..

with out blame or yelling,,,

you will not have ANY more contact with him on a personal level...

What else is left for you to do...

ARK^^

Ark-

So I should meet with him and lay it out for him?

Counseling hasn't ever been in any of my PBL's because we do not have the funds nor any insurance, although I wish we did. I may contact my clergy and see if something can be set up through him. I assume that would be free.

Do I give him another Plan B letter? I do know that he has kept EVERY Plan B letter I've given him, I've seen them. I just assumed he could refer back to them.

So, you suggest I call him, and meet with him regarding all of this, tell him my expectations (Which by the way, he feels I'm telling him what to do, and is VERY resentful of it--I've tried to explain that it's not that I'm ordering him around, it's simply what *I* have to have in order to know he's serious.)

I did not tell him about any dealbreakers.......but I will make sure to tell him what are deal breakers.

-Caren

Caren..

I would go as far as legal seperation or divorce papers...

meet with him..

lay them on the table...

and lay your cards down...


I CAREN HAVE DECIDED THAT IT WOULD BE FAR BETTER TO BE WITH OUT YOU HUSBAND THAN TO BE WITH YOU AND PART OF A TRIANGLE...

IF YOU CONTACT HER...

I AM WALKING AWAY...

I AM TOO VALUABLE
TO WASTE ONE MORE SECOND IN A TRIANGLE..

AND I AM AT GREAT PEACE WITH THIS DECISION...

BEING WITHOUT YOU WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER THAN BEING LIED TO...

PERIOD...

DO AS YOU CHOOSE...BUT BE CLEAR ON THIS CHOICE OF MINE...

that is exactly what I would do...
his time has come...
put up or shut up...

you need a back pocket plan always...
I'd get seperation and or divorce papers...

i could not live with he who choose contact with OP at this stage of the game...period

ARK
(mimi's gonna faint...someone pick her up will ya...)

Hi Caren,
I figured I could toss some ideas out and see what you think.

Your husband is not acting right. This no secret. So what so you do now?

Focus on what you are doing right, and do more right. Maintain... and build. On you.

This man is not on your team. He obviously doesn't get, what I consider to be, the rules. If one finds themself to be a WS(find themself... good lord...) then a few 'new' rules apply. Of course depending on where you wish to go.

If staying married to the person you betrayed is your goal, then No Contact must be established. (my, haven't we seen the fruits of utter failure on this one lately). Of course NC implies that sexual contact has stopped as well... duh. The ability to say "stop snooping on me" disappears (and really shouldn't have been available anyway). Openness must prevail. passwords, cellphone records.. and so on. The usual stuff.

If staying a cake-eater is the goal(looks like your H plays here) than anything from the WS is suspect and not to be trusted. Duh.. I am sure.

But herein lies the key. And pardon my brashness.

Your H is like some of my used-to-be-close friends that act like "things are going well in the relationship because I'm banging her". Truly a college freshmen mentality. I actually talked to one of these friends just the other day on the phone... and it was really strange. How did I not see this before.. I wondered. Well... I used to be like him in some respects. He has a child with a woman and after the child, they start to have problems. The split up and then after around 3 months, they are starting to work it out, he says. Do you know how they are working it out? He's "slipping her the pipe". "Ha ha.. she is really wearing me out, patriot... I mean, man, I need a break" Now they are not married... but I really don't think he's on the right track here.

The point. Some men... not all... but some think that "If she is giving it up, then I am doing all I need to do" It is like sex is the metric that states your relationship is on good, solid ground. Or at least good enough.

Oh sure.. some men feel. ******, some men even cry and stuff... but give a man sex and he thinks things are good. In some sort of sophomoric mentality... It is really childish, but childishness exists. And your H is childish. It's all about instant gratification and right now. No long term goals. No thinking of the future. Just thinking of now. All that kind of crap.

So.. in my opinion, your husband is the kind of person that thinks sex means things are good enough. I mean... you wouldn't give it up if it weren't right? Sure.. all wives yell... the nagging bi*ches. But if they are giving it up.. then I can take some yelling and just hide the things I want from her...

Any of this make sense? Any of this sound familiar? Does it line up? It isn't really pretty and I imagine some folks with christian morals reading here might even be offended or surprised. But, the real world is an ugly place and better to know the evils than to be ignorant of them.

I really think that your single greatest weapon, is plan B that includes no sex. I also think you need to start being prepared to manage that this might not work out. He might really freak out about the no sex thing... and that may turn out bad. But it is the right thing for YOU to do. No sex until the A is stopped(including all contact) and STD tests and defined boundaries with appropriate consequences are established and understood.

Praying for you caren. Please take care.

Thanks Ark and Patriot.

Ark-

I will check into how much it would be to get a legal separation. I already know that starting divorce proceedings is too rich for my blood, as I am unemployed.

I was told to never mention divorce, nor file for divorce unless I meant it. And while I am rapidly approaching a time where I will mean it, I am not at this point just yet.

I am going to file for child support......which I haven't done thusfar, which will put a serious cramp in his style....as he can barely afford to feed my SS16 now. According to the child support calculator that Ohio has, he would be paying $331.00 per month, His monthy salary is only about 1200.00, and out of that he pays $150.00 car payment, $675.00 rent, now about $80.00 for his cell phone and then you take out the child support and he has about 200 to 300 dollars to live on for the entire month....not counting utilities.

I think divorce papers would wake him up, but I don't want to do it for the shock value, I want to do it because I mean that I no longer wish to be married to him.........and as I said, I am rapidly approaching that place in my life.



I do believe that I need to tell him these things. But I don't know that I can even get legal separation papers or any of that in order, I will check into this, I believe it would expedite child support if I did it this way.

I am completely open to all suggestions and I will await any and all input. And Ark, I am so grateful for yours.

Patriot, I understand what you're saying, mixed signals......I'm mad that you contacted her....but then we have sex, so he perceives I'm okay with it.

God Bless,

-Caren

Mimi-

Waiting for your take on all this................lemme have it girl.

Don't spare my feelings..........lay it out, because I know that you had problems staying in Plan B initially, so I want your input.

Thank You Dear, and God Bless,

-Caren

I don't know you Caren ...

Here is my assumption about you ...

One of your top 3 ENs is CONVERSATION

which is why (perhaps) you put much stock in these conversations you imagine will have great impact on your H's choices ....

and I believe your need for conversation is also why Plan B seems so difficult for you ... you have a need to talk

well, if you want to make an impression on your H that you mean business ... may I suggest (with love, of course) that you just shut-the-heck- up !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Impress him with your silence and dazzle him with your bold actions and deny him the opportunity to fill YOUR EN of conversation.

Just a suggestion.

Arkie's suggestion of laying PAPERS on the table is most excellent.

No more "conversations" about your "demands" .... demand something from yourself, not from HIM ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Demand action not words from yourself.

It's the UNexpected which will speak loudest to him and scare the bejeebers out of him. He's expecting you to verbally berate him & make demands.

Deny him this. He will be confused.

Pep

Caren:

You are so blessed with receiving counsel from the wise women who sooo helped me.

I certainly agree with them.

At this point, in my FIGHT, I did as they have suggested with some variations.

I got a copy of LOVE MUST BE TOUGH by Dobson and actually prepared a "speech" for my H based on what I learned from that book. I recall him being AMAZED. I, of course, was dying inside but I appeared resolved and resolute...saying, CALMLY YET ASSERTIVELY something to the effect (GET THE BOOK).."I will no longer be a part of this triangle. I am letting you go into you come back to me. If you love me, you will come back, etc."..No matter what he said or did that day, I had reached the point when I would no longer be a part of it...This takes developing TOUGHNESS...

So I agree with meeting with him face to face and then I would hand him the PLAN B LETTER....This is starting PLAN B AGAIN..getting back up on the horse..back in the fight..as you know, I did this more than once..with more than one PLAN B LETTER and more than one NC LETTER...

I also agree that before this meeting that you have the information that you need regarding LEGAL SEPARATION and child support. I think you can pull up legal separation agreements on line...

Also, have your PLAN B in order this time, Caren...with an intermediary..with planned visitation and times and ways to call that YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH..disallowing him to call your daughter each night in your company...

THE KEY IS TO GAIN HIS SELF-RESPECT.

Make a resolve to no longer allow him to DISRESPECT you.

Using a phone that you got in your name to call his woman?..UTTER DISRESPECT...

This is not new for him is it? I'm recalling him calling you an ugly name in your daughter's presence..CORRECT?

I'm not clear on the specifics but BOTTOM LINE..you need to be DARK, DARK, DARK as possible..with no communication with him whatsoever..no way for him to reach you without GREAT, GREAT EFFORT on his part...

He needs to come back this time BEGGING AND PLEADING...

IMO, counseling is not worth it right now...he will likely use this as a stalling technique to eat more cake...making promises that he won't keep...allowing him to have a taste of you...

My opinion on this...

So how do I lay papers on the table without seeing him, and therefore talk to him?

I will maintain my silence.....I will move forward with my own life.

God Bless,

-Caren

I was suggesting in my post that you do see him..ONE LAST TIME...

That you do not make demands but that you speak with him CALMLY AND ASSERTIVELY...

And that you do LAY IT ALL OUT..with resolve and no expectation of conversation or discussion with him...

THEN POOF..YOU ARE GONE..LIGHTS OUT...

Maybe this should be in a public place...given his DRAMA-MAKING..

You can talk to him ....

just don't tell him anything important right now until your Plan is ready to launch!

Pep