AWESOME! This is what I've been getting at. That we BOTH show love and respect (or atleast respect). It makes perfect sense to PlanA H and Plan B WH. Great! I feel a sense of accomplishment today; I DO get it! I thought I was all wrong. I don't expect bright, shiny miracles, but I do expect respect and love. I was thinking of trying out him wringing the door bell first, and waiting to be allowed to enter prior to changing the locks. If that doesn't work, I'll get a new lock and install it. I'm much more patient now and am able to be more still. This is going to be interesting...

I have a deep respect for everyone's opinions here, as you have all ridden your own path through purgatory, so I thank you all.

Any other gems of knowledge that I can work with are greatly appreciated!

Temp (C.)

Answer Faith's question:



I still say that it is important for you to focus on yourself.

I understand what Orchid is saying. I want to make sure that you do.

You cannot do PLAN A and PLAN B at the same time.

That is not part of the MB SYSTEM!!!!

So please don't go down that road.

It's important to focus on the changes that YOU NEED TO MAKE IN YOURSELF. YOUR PLAN...

The point I've been trying to make is that it will get you NOWHERE to focus on what you want him to do...

Does this make sense at all to you? I'm not sure that you are getting this.

Perfect example. How are you going TO MAKE HIM show you RESPECT.

Faith knows all about this issue. It is VITAL for a man to FEEL RESPECTED in order to FEEL LOVED. So RESPECT AND LOVE cannot be demanded from him if you want him to feel loved by you. He will LOVE the WOMAN who RESPECTS HIM.



It's either PLAN A or PLAN B, Temp. If you are doing PLAN A, don't change your locks. If you are going to PLAN B, write the PLAN B letter and then change your locks.

Either PLAN A or PLAN B.

Follow the MARRIAGEBUILDERS PROGRAM!!!

I'm sorry...sounding frustrated.....

Ok. You are coming across sounding demanding and controlling of him....

Is Admiration a top need of your H's? If so, this is a MAJOR PROBLEM because he will feel disrespected by your approach.

Your PLAN should be a function of your WH's particular needs and the particular problems in YOUR marriage.

You see, Orchid's approach would have been disastrous for my marriage because ADMIRATION and RESPECT are such big issues for my H and I had spent years disregarding him.

You see? What are the particular and specific issues that YOU need to work on? That YOU, as a marital partner, need to change?

Thanks Mimi,
good 2x4. He requires admiration and respect, sexual attention, recreational fun, conversation. This is what I've learned about him over this year. I require respect, affection, conversation, recreational fun.

It is Plan A for me. I am letting go of trying to figure out what his plan is. I don't want to shut him out.

I need to work on respect. It has been very hard to respect someone who disrespected me, and didn't think that I could deal with us having problems in our marriage. The problems in the marriage that led to the A were some of the following:

1-disrespectful judgments
Examples
H-I need more sex from you
Me - I can't just perform, I'm not a porn star, and it seems like you expect a porn star (not adressing the real issue)

Me - I could really use more help around the house and with DS
H - why is that the only thing you ever talk about (we talked about many things, but my need was not fulfilled, it was ignored)

Also, we spent a lot of time apart having fun with our own set of friends; didn't reserve enough time to have fun together; always vacationed with family, never ran off--just the two of us (after son was born). We both longed for this, but neither one of us brought it up or really addressed the problems.

I withheld and he withheld until one of us made the wrong move.

I can no longer live in a world of REaction. I am learning to understand that I have no control of him, and that it is ridiculous to try. I will follow the golden rule and hope to see a ray of light. IMO, WE need to agree on US, which means that we have to have MUTUAL respect. I feel like a doormat right now, and maybe need some time to get straight in my own head. I am not going AGAINST MB principles. I am trying to find my OWN way of dealing with him.

I'm looking for my own way, focus on me, my problems; My H is lost also. I am not focusing on him; I'm trying to find a way to remain in a M with him while he treats me with disrespect. I have been in Plan A for over 6 mos now, and he has not shown signs of improvement. Maybe I'm worn out--I've been thoughtful and giving, sexual, and respectful. I've been initiating fun downtime together ALONE, I'm not judging, I'm stating what I have been trying to do to show love and respect.

I want to live within the parameters of POJA, radical honesty (especially for me). I'm not demanding anything. It is a NEED for me to feel safe. Am I supposed to feel vulnerable? I feel very vulnerable, and have since last October. I don't feel any more protected or close than when the A occurred. I feel a lack of trust coming from him, and I cannot make this go away. H has not addressed any of the reasons why he left, or had EA/PA. No counseling. He does things without telling me, and isn't open and honest about his friendships and time. I've asked him to go to MC with me, and he refuses. I then ask him how we should proceed and he says I don't know. I'm frustrated too. I'm sorry that you are, I'm really trying to let this all click. I'm no expert.

I need to work on forgiveness; resentment

I am working on abandonment stemming from childhood, and my need to overanalyze and project what I infer from conversations and actions. I am learning to take people as they are; they're ACTIONS speak volumes.

I want to be the best me I can be, I want to exercise and have fun with son and friends, maybe learn to play my guitar that I've had for years. I want to let things happen as they come, more naturally, no force. I've always been a upbeat, quirky one, and have buried it. I want that back.

....and u should have it back. It was very wrong for any of that comfort and joy t/b taken from you.

Mimi and I disagree about my plan A your spouse and plan B the WS.....here's my experience with this (pay attention to the character communicating with the BS because that controls how the BS responds (same subject, different characters):


H: You look lovely tonight. Dinner was good. I would love to hold you and make love to you.

BS: Ok. (plan A response)


WS: I'm full (burp). Let's go to bed. I want sex.
BS: No. (plan B response)

Now why would a BS want to plan A a WS in this situation? Here's another:

H: I would like to get a new bike. Can we afford it?
BS: It will be a bit tight but we can try. We need a few things for the kids and house 1st. (plan A response)

WS: I have to have a new bike...... An HOG!
BS: Sure, after the kids gets their braces, dog gets his flea dip and we get a new sink. (plan B response)

Think about it, what message does it give the WS if you are nice to the WS when he is a WS and nice when he is your H. What incentive will that give the WS to STOP being a WS?

Check out the experiences of many here.....and find out, the nicer they are to the WS, the _________________________ the WS becomes.


JMHO,
L.

I'm saying that your terminology doesn't fit with the MB principals and for someone like Temp this may be confusing.

She needs to understand the difference between being in PLAN A and being in PLAN B...so that she can do an effective PLAN A....which is essential prior to going into PLAN B...

Orchid, are you saying that a BS can be in BOTH PLANS?

I also was saying that for a WS whose Primary Emotional Need is Admiration this would not be a good PLAN A approach.

PLAN A then PLAN B is what is recommended.

Are you saying that you don't agree with PLAN A as recommended by the Harleys? You say:



It sounds like you don't agree with the principals of PLAN A.

It is confusing to me what you are trying to say here. Are you introducing a new theory? A WS is a WS until there is NC with the OP....

My H was not at all himself until after WITHDRAWAL from the OW....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My dear Mimi,

I believe we discussed this before. For the benefit of all....it is like this.....

Let's call him Bob and her Lisa.....

Bob is the WSH and Lisa is the BS.

Bob sometimes acts like the WS and other times like Lisa's H should.

Lisa is the BS struggling t/b the W at all times. This is hard.

After the shock of the A wears off and Lisa's mind and heart are in sync, Lisa learns to distinguish between Bob when he is being a WS vs her H. At first, she doesn't see or hear much from the H side of his character but at times, her real H is allowed to peek out and when he does, her heart jumps for joy.

Lisa wants to see her H more often but her H is kidnapped by the WS in a deep dark pit within the soul of Bob.

In Lisa's case, the classic WS lines babble forth from the mouth of Bob. Confusing everyone who ever knew the nice, kind, fatherly, and loving H that Bob used t/b. The WS Bob now spews venom that berates Lisa at every chance the WS gets.....it hurts, stings and stinks.

Now you have accused me of going against MB principles in the past. I will state again that I am not against MB principles. I am against the BS being manipulated by any WS who tries to use plan A principles for the benefit of the A. RE: There will come a time when the BS will not need to plan A (make positive changes or be nice for the just anyone). Because, Plan A is NOT about being a doormat.

Sometimes, there comes a time when plan B (refusing to deal with the WS antics) and implementing boundaries becomes a necessity in order to survive. If your H keeps popping in, why plan B him? He is your H? Be flexible so you get the same consistent message to both sides of his persona. It isn't easy but it is doable.

Who else would you plan A while they are spewing venom such as comes out of the mouth of a WS? Your child's teacher? The mechanic? The grocery clerk? Your neighborh? relatives? Friends? Workmates? Boss? Hm.....

However if treating your WS in plan A all the time brought u 2 to recovery, then that is great. I know it didn't work in my case.....and that's ok for others to see different resolutions.

I don't expect all to agree with me. I post and am confident that all will come to their own conclusions and take the best parts that can benefit them and their situations. When they make their own good choices, I have no qualms which method they take....as long as it works for them.

Peace,
L.

Dear Temp,

Didn't mean to detract from your thread with my last post. Please know we want to help you as best as we can. We hope that through our experiences it will help you in this crazy journey to survive through this A mess. U R NOT alone.

We have been there, done that and SURVIVED!!!

take care,
L.

This is from the article: "What are Plan A and Plan B?"

Notice what I have put in Bold...

[quote] So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.

But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. quote]



Temp, I followed this as closely as possible to a T..with dotted I's and crossed T's along with the counseling of Steve Harley who encouraged and supported this system as it is described here.

Orchid:

You know me..it's me..I'm a stickler for the system...

I do respect your right to have your viewpoint and want you to know that I experience you as having a HEART OF GOLD...trying to help heal the pain like most of us here...

Temp seems to be getting so confused so I wanted to help her understand what the MB principles say if she chooses to follow them like I "tried" to do....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

Here's where most of us are when we have to implement plan B. But plan B s/b for the WS not the H or W.

Further in what you quoted are these words of wisdom:

[color:"blue"]....But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. [/color]

Many a BS gets stuck in plan A and basically wear themselves out. Not necessary. By reading the entire info, plan A c/b done. If the WS is still the Ws, then plan B c/b a necessity for the BS. When it is, it s/b used for the WS not the H or W.

L.

Correct. I absolutely agree with this...but PLAN B IS NOT done during PLAN A as you SEEMED to be encouraging Temp to do....PLAN A THEN PLAN B...

Okay if I say something now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I want you both to know that I am working in Plan A, but want no DJ's from him and will speak up when he does. I am working in Plan A, but agree that I will not be a doormat. I was being that footwiper on and off during my Plan A while he was home, and yes I did ask him to leave, but no fuss was thrown up about it. This leads me to believe that I am on my way to PlanB. He has always had the support of his friends and family, while not giving that support in return. I am not angry, I am just at the point where I feel he has to make his own decisions about what he wants, and being in the home hasn't seemed to work.

We are meeting to discuss finances and visitation with my DS on Sunday, and I will be able to get a guage on him at that point. I am focusing on myself now, and my son. I have a life to live, and want happiness. I have stated that my M is important to me, and having my DS father in the home is important. I understand PlanA and have been doing that for over 6 mos; It wasn't perfect at first, but within a couple of months I got the hang of it. I began detaching from the fog and supporting him in the best way I know how, love, affection, attention, conversation, fun. He just didn't 'connect'.
I can only make decisions based on H actions, and his actions say that he CANNOT do this, at least right now. I CANNOT continue in this vain, so Plan B seems to be on its way.

I agree that it is good to stick to MB principles, but I'm not a stickler for how quickly I progress from one stage to the next. Plan B, no matter how long you take to get to it, is sudden when it is implemented. I take comfort in that idea. I am almost pooped out, and will make the decision very soon.

You two have really helped me to see where I am. I feel so much more clear on where I am headed. I have to concentrate on my family and my life. H needs to decide if he is a part of 'my life' or not. I cannot make that decision for him. I'm finished making decisions for him. When he takes responsibility for his own thoughts and owns them, he will make better decisions. If he never chooses to look inside himself, that is his choice. I now know that happiness awaits me, with or without H.

Just to let you know that this is lovebusting..can't do PLAN A and lovebust..just can't...SORRY...

You sound demanding...like a General...like the expectation is for him to say..YES SIR..you might not mean to sound this way..or to come across this way...

I think you need to SPEAK UP FOR YOURSELF..and clearly make it ABOUT YOU...not sounding like you are telling him what he needs to do..Get the difference?



Did you read the part in the above information about THE RISK OF SEPARATION?

I'm smiling but you do wear me out, GIRLFRIEND...

I'll be back later..got to go do my "OTHER JOB"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My communication skills are lacking, I guess. I certainly will do no love busting. I will say that I hear him, repeat what he has said, and ask him if I'm getting the interpretation wrong. I have worked on this one a lot, as I am known as 'bossy carole' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> round my friends and family; so I do recognize that I go into this mode. I'm what you might call a strong personality.

I do understand the risk of separation. I don't want a 'yes sir' man, I want a man who can speak to me what he needs. H has not. I have asked him, 'could you take this emotional questionnaire' 'NO!'. 'could you tell me what your needs are in a relationship'. The responses I get vary, but they have generally been that he doesn't understand why I ask, that he feels like I am trying, and appreciates it, but I'm just not hitting the mark. I ask what he thinks that mark could be, and he says he doesn't know.

I agree that separation was bad; it was a bad move on my part; a decision made from an emmense amount of grief. I cannot change the decisions I have made, only try to repair them. I have sent him an email saying that I love him, I want to be in a M with him that is happy and fulfilling, and do my part to get us there. When someone stands in your face and repeatedly tells you there's nothing you can do to stop the bleeding, you eventually buy into it. It's not a pretty thing, but it's the reality of my situation. No progress has been made, and I do feel it is best for myself and my son to have some peace. Son has always asked, 'where's daddy' since he came home, because he tends to come home after me, and works out two nights a week. His daddy has never addressed this either. Now son is saying that he wants daddy here. I agree that I want daddy here too, and I will ask him (H) so. I have asked him (H) so much. He has not responded. I'm sorry that I exhaust you, This is the biggest challenge I have ever faced. I want him home, have told him that, have said we can work it out, have said I will do my part, have shown that home is a nice, comforting, warm place.

I read my posts and do sound confused; probably because I am. I am rereading SAA; especially Plan A. I already understand Plan B. Again, I have read this website up and down and read books and articles about recovering a M after an A. I am not saying I want H to leave and fail miserably. I am saying that I feel he doesn't show interest in working on the M. He may be utterly confused himself; I do not know. If I have plan A'd and he has not responded, what should I do?

I'll say again..

I know it's a play on words.

It cannot be about getting the response that you want from him. He and everybody else are free to be who they are.

You have to love him for whom he basically is, Temp...

You can't make him be the kind of man that YOU WANT HIM to be...

If he feels that you are trying to remake him, he will feel UNLOVED AND DISRESPECTED by you...

He will find someone who LIKES him...

Maybe you don't..that's OK...

Maybe you can find someone that you like...

But you can't remake him..unless HE CHOOSES TO CHANGE...

That's why I say that it has to be about you...

My H, for example, has a number of personality flaws that rub me the wrong way..if I could change him into the person that I want him to be, that would be great..but HOW DISRESPECTFUL OF ME...

I had to get this and it was an important lesson..

I spent years trying to change him...lost him..and learned that I wanted HIM the whole time...

He found himself a PWT (pretty young thing) that liked him and respected him for who he is and he basically is a WONDERFUL person despite all his flaws...

The PWT was playing him as OW do..she was a phony...I REALLY LOVE HIM...STINKY FEET AND ALL...

I really love him, I respect him. I like many things about him; there are things I don't like. I have never denied that. There are things about me he doesn't like, I am aware of many faults that I have. I do live in reality. I do know that M takes work, and that I stopped doing that work, and allowed the water to seep through the cracks. I do not take blame for this affair. I take responsibility for my actions that brought our M to a place where he felt unloved and cared for. I felt the same and didn't know how to communicate that. I have learned to communicate with him better. He doesn't speak, quite literally.

I know that he is free to be himself. I AM making this about me. I love the man, have told him so, have given love and respect. I'm not here to justify myself, I'm here to get guidance as to what to do now that things are where they are. I don't agree with everything that you say; that's okay. You don't agree with everything I say; that's okay. We are two distinct human beings with our own faults and weaknesses. I expect advice on proceeding. I expect to be confronted with what I have said here, and go within myself to find if I am progressing. As you have said, I cannot change him. I asked him if we were okay, if we needed to talk, he said 'No, I'm not happy.' I asked if he wanted to talk about this, he said 'No, I don't think there is anything that you can do'. I said, 'Do you want to go to counseling?' he said 'no', ' I asked how he wanted to try to work this out. He said ' not right now'. I asked what he saw as the problem, he said ' I can't like you, I can't love you'. I understood that to be that his truth is that he CANNOT love me. I repeated, ' you don't like me, you cannot love me' He said 'yes'. I asked if he wanted to move out, he said 'okay'. That was it.