Am I the only one who's thinking that the "other news" she's not ready 2 tell Peter is that this went PA a while ago?

I'm having a hard time believing that an EA that the BSs know about would be worth the effort of a horny 22-yr old.

Peter. Sorry for my harsh post, but take it from someone who wanted harder than anything 2 believe my W when she claimed she'd ended her A before d-day.

Blind trust has 2 go here. Life isn't easy, and neither is marriage. It's hard work.

Love is not a feeling, it's a choice.

Marriage is a contract. You each promised 2 forsake all others. It's time, right NOW, for your W 2 end contact with this clown forever, for any reason.

Why aren't you 2 in counseling??

-ol' 2long

somebody smart said on another post that marriage has rules.

She isn't respecting those rules or you.

Trust has to be earned. If she doesn't realize that it may be time for plan B.

Blind

Peter,

You need to get into action with your wife, right now,

Your list of demands:

1. No contact. Period. She cannot quibble or negotiate this point. She writes the letter, you read it, and YOU MAIL IT.

2. Marriage counseling.

3. She needs independent counseling, and so do you. Start saving your pennies for this one.

4. On her new job, there will be no more "friends" like this one. Or anywhere else, for that matter!

5. She tells you ALL of the details, right now, including any and all physical encounters. No holding back to protect ANYBODY. You don't need protection, you are a big boy.

In the event she doesn't get it, I do have a suggestion for her to "understand" better how you feel about this guy. Go to your computer, and print his name out in the largest font you have available on your printer. It might come out one letter per page - that would be great. Then, hang his name up where you can see it while you lie in your bed. When she says, "Why is his name up there?", you can say, "Well, since there are three of us in this marriage, I figured he needed a place too." Maybe she will get your point then. And don't take it down until she sends a no contact letter.

Stand your ground.

SB

Peter,

I think your wife is continuing to disrespect you and your marriage. If the roles were reversed do you honestly think she would put up with such crap from you?

I agree with 2 long.
1) She had a physical affair with this guy which is why she is afraid to tell you more which is so disrespectful to you by playing this game that she wants to tell you but she does not want to hurt you crap.
2) I guarantee you that the OM's wife has no clue.

For you wife to continue contact with this guy after all you have been through is sending a clear message to you. She sees you as a doormat. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. Why should she change her behavior if all you do is complain about it with no action behind it. I would insist that she take an STD test and definately contact the OM's wife. Why in the world do you believe anything the OM says or your wife says. She knows how destructive to you her contact is with the OM but she continues anyway. Let me ask you this: Why would you wife respect her spouse who allows her to continue contact with her affair partner without consequences. She is showing no respect for you. If you do not respect yourself then who will?

Peter,

I'm so glad others have joined your thread to give you some very excellent insight and advice. I am a FWW, so there is only so much that I can truly understand and say... please listen to those BSs who have been there and know EXACTLY what you should do.

JL offered excellent insight about your W's need to help others, and how this is an ego boost for her as well. Your W has some self-esteem issues, and IC for the both of you is a great suggestion. So is MC.

I know I've said this before, but your personality reminds me of my H. I also use to worry about telling H things because he was so sensitive and would "fly off the handle." The truth is, I was partially responsible for that behavior. I would hold things in because of fear of conflict, and then finally get the nerve to tell H something that I should have told him hours or even days beforehand. He would go nuts... "why are you telling me this now??" Thus reinforcing my fear. We were both responsible for this pattern, and we don't do it nearly as much anymore. Don't let your W blame you for things that she is also contributing to.

So how was your W's first day at work? Have you thought about your next plan of action yet?

Quote:

"In the event she doesn't get it, I do have a suggestion for her to "understand" better how you feel about this guy. Go to your computer, and print his name out in the largest font you have available on your printer. It might come out one letter per page - that would be great. Then, hang his name up where you can see it while you lie in your bed. When she says, "Why is his name up there?", you can say, "Well, since there are three of us in this marriage, I figured he needed a place too." Maybe she will get your point then. And don't take it down until she sends a no contact letter."

GREAT suggestion, SB! I would have DIED if my H did this to me and it would have worked, too... big time.

Peter, I am going to have to disagree with you here. Your W wants to pursue her own selfish interests at the expense of the marriage. Her ACTIONS indicate that she is not interested in you or the marriage, but her own selfish interests. She is much more concerned with getting an ego boost from playing alley cat in heat with this young boy than she is your marriage. She is perfectly willing to destroy your marriage over a "friendship" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> with a 22 yr old boy. So, please don't fool yourself into thinking she wants your marriage to work. She don't. She only wants to have you at her beck and call while she pursues this boy.


You have probably been sold a bill of goods in order to shut you up. And it worked! If she was told anything it was likely a LIE spun by the OM to make it look like an innocent "friendship." In fact, I would bet that you have already been spun as an "abusive" husband who is "insanely jealous" and imagines his W is having affairs with everyone.

Peter, you have become the affair's biggest enabler by not setting any protective boundaries for you or your marriage. Your marriage will NEVER RECOVER as long as she continues to see the OM every day at work. You will NEVER recover from the trauma [you can see this now] and she will NEVER withdraw from her affection for him. You will NEVER trust her. [and you would be a fool to trust her right now] Rather, her affection will grow and continue to grow for her boyfriend. By continuing to work with him she stays in a state of PERPETUAL withdrawal, if she even gets that far.
As it is now, she can carry on her affair anytime she wants and there will no one to stop her!

What you all are doing here is the exact same as sending a "recovering" alcoholic" into the bar every day and telling him he can only have "work drinks." Do you imagine that he will EVER recover? Of course he won't. Only complete and total abstinence will ever achieve recovery.

You are playing with fire, my friend. And I suspect you know this but are afraid to do anything but take the easiest, softest way to avoid her ire. Your FEAR will cost you your marriage and your wife's RESPECT. You can see what that gets you so far. I promise, it gets WORSE.

Are you ready to make this a WAY OF LIFE that consists of a YEARS LONG, on-again, off-again affair? That is the very high cost of CONFLICT AVOIDANCE and that is what I see happening here, Peter. I see you damning yourself to a life of he11 because you won't MAN UP and set firm boundaries NOW to protect yourself and your marriage.

I hope you think long and hard about what you are doing to yourself by taking this path. And please take some time and read a story about another man, like you, who avoided conflict so successfully that he did lose his marriage: HE HUNG HIMSELF. The high price of doing nothing: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

And what am I suggesting? I am suggesting that you start off by informing the OMW NOW. [without forewarning your W] She has a right to know about this affair. Secondly, I would tell your W that this is hopeless unless she ends all contact with the OM. Your marriage will not recover unless that happens. That is a start.

But I will leave you with this. Women do not respect men they can walk all over. They are repulsive to us. And often, our feelings of love are contingent upon our feelings of respect. Please keep this in mind when you allow her to walk all over you and give you the most idiotic excuses to maintain her affair with the OM.

Sorry you are here, my friend.

The word on high from a top professional:

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


Mimi wrote: Check this out from the How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS..one of my favorite pieces of reading material...

p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

JL, I just wanted to say that post was AWESOME! Agree with each and every word. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I really appreciate everyone's posts. Thanks for all the support. Thanks again Katie for helping out with this.

I want to try and explain things a little better because I think there is some confusion in what has happened in this whole affair. The OMW does know what has happened, and I have confirmation of this from an outside source. She is having a very difficult time with it.

Contrary to the opinions expressed that I need to get a "backbone", I think I have shown a lot of backbone, as well as the compassion and love I think I need to to help my wife get over this. While I am extemeley hurt by what she has done, the guilt and remorse that she feels is also great, and we need each other's help to get through this. I have told her that I won't accept this happening again, and if it does, that I will be gone.

As far as my wife's honesty and respect, that is still something that I am not sure about. She left a job that was basically her "dream job", to try and fix this situation. In my eyes, that was a big first step. I told her last Saturday that I don't want her to have any further contact with OM, and that this was the only way I thought we could fully heal from this EA. She was mad and I know that she is having a hard time accepting this. But she did say that she knows it has to happen, and that was the first time she admitted this. I have also told her that any time OM tries to contact her, or she contacts him, for whatever reason, I need to know about. I explained that the only way for me to trust her again completely is if we have full disclosure about OM. Then I will start to feel as if she is putting us first, instead of trying to protect her relationship with him.

I think that I do have reason to start to believe in her again, but with a lot of caution. Before this EA, she was the most trustworthy and honest person I ever knew. She would tell me everything, even when it was things she knew would hurt me. She fell away from her religion partially this winter, and I beleive that opened up a whole can of confusion for her, including her feelings and lying with this OM. She has been getting back seriously involved in church again, and I think this is another step in the healing process for her. She just has to realize that while church will definitley help her, she has to change her way of thinking about our marriage and her commitment to it as well to ensure this doesn't happen again.

As far as the full and honest truth from her, I am going to ask her to tell me everything this weekend. We are going away on a 2 night trip without the kids, and I will ask her then. I am going to explain that in order for me to get over this, I need to have all the facts, no matter how much it hurts me or her. The letter that JL referred to is basically how I feel. She has the whole picture in which to work with, and I have a partial one that I draw my own conclusions from. I have also bought the book, Not Just Friends, and I am going to give it to her this weekend.

I know that I have a lot of emotional baggage as well that I need to take care of, and am considering a counsellor for
this. In the meantime, since D Day, I have been doing a lot of things for myself to increase my self esteem and show my wife what a great guy I am. It is starting to make a big difference for me, and she has noticed. Even though I still feel a great deal of pain and anger, I am feeling much better about myself.

Thanks again everyone for your opinions.

This, I believe. It would still be helpful for you 2 contact her yourself, for corroboration of what you've been told. "Trust, but verify".


This is NOT past tense, because she is still in contact. While she is, you'd best consider the A still going on, because it IS. She can't get over the OM by continuing 2 have contact. It is that simple. Since it is still "happening", are you willing 2 leave now? Don't make ultimatums unless you are ready 2 follow through, or they won't be taken seriously.


This was an important PART of the first step. Your W will "fail" in her desire 2 "fix" the si2ation if she stays in contact with the OM.


If I had a dollar for every time my FWW said this, I could afford a case of your favorite microbrew.

2long's pos2late: "Actions speak, words don't."


Better: "I told her that any time OM tries 2 contact her, she is not 2 respond, and she's 2 inform me immediately. She is never 2 contact OM."


Trust will take a long time 2 rebuild, and you can't start until she ends contact with the OM permanently.


Something else for you 2 ponder:

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."



-ol' 2long

That is good. So she won't be surprised when you call her up and offer to team up with her to bust up this affair. She can be your greatest ally if you are both watching and comparing notes. She should also understand that her marriage will never recover as long as they continue to see each other.

Well, full disclosure about continuing contact will not help you, Peter. It is a START, but does not solve the problem. Only ENDED contact will save your marriage and rebuild trust. You should not trust her until CONTACT ENDS because she will always be vulnerable to a slip. And she doesn’t HAVE to be honest with you, she only has to tell she what she chooses. Trust cannot be restored, as you can see, until ALL CONTACT ENDS.

I think the greatest thing you can do for your self esteem is establish protective boundaries that not only protect your marriage but increase your self respect, and increase her respect for you.

Don't say this again, Peter.

This is very controlling and I doubt you'd back it up with action. I bet you will get the chance to put your money where your mouth is.

Further, is your devotion to your marriage that shallow?

What about your vows? Did you recite "in good times and in bad"?

This approach is so, so, so typical of uninformed BSs. So get informed. It is absolutely dangerous to demand anything, to cower over your spouse with dominance, and to condescend from the moral high ground to a WS. You cannot make her do anything. Trying to is doubly bad.

Yes, I'm being harsh. But I want you to succeed and playing this role is exactly the opposite thing you should be doing.

JMHO

WAT

Sorry Wat, I knew as soon as I read your post that I phrased that wrong. I didn't actually tell her I would be gone, I think I said something like I didn't think I could take it if this happened again. But that is still probably the wrong approach, since I am implying indirectly that the result next time will be different.

As far as devotion to my marriage, it means everything to me. The vows we took, while I am not a religious man, are sacred to me. I fully intend to spend the rest of this life and whatever comes after this life with my wife. She is my soulmate, and I know that I am hers.

I am a little confused about the advice here as far as demanding things from my wife. On the one hand I am being told to demand NC as a condition of our marriage being saved, but then also that I can't make demands on her because I am being controlling. I need help understanding this.

The last couple of days have been absolute ****** for me. Since our conversation on Saturday, I keep wondering what is the "rest of the story" that she has to tell me. I don't think that there is much more for her to tell, but I have a feeling that he probably has tried to do much more than what I know. The only way for me to get over this feeling is for her to tell me the whole story.

It is so confusing right now because we have a lot of good times together, but I can't seem to shake the feeling of distrust. From you other BS's out there, how long does this take to go away. I know everyone is different, but I just need an idea of when I will start to feel better, once my wife has ended contact with OM.

Thanks everybody

Peter,

It's so important that you talk about this with your W as soon as possible.

Are you still planning on discussing things this weekend?

I have a hard time understanding demands vs. boundaries as well. I think what I would say is this:

Sit her down, and tell her how you feel right now. That she means everything to you, and you want to fix this. How the only way to fix it is if OM is out of your lives completely. Tell her you want to know everything, even if it is hurtful. Tell her you need to know everything, so you can help her maintain NC. Let her know that you so appreciate her leaving her job, but you need this one last step in order to feel safe in the M. After she confesses whatever it is she needs to confess (I'm thinking it's kissing, mabye?) be very calm. Thank her for letting you know, and you appreciate her honesty. Now that you know everything, you can work together as a team to keep OM out of your lives forever. You understand this will be hard for her, but you will help her during this process.

I would not give her the book (so happy you bought it!) Instead, I would read it yourself and leave it by your bedside table or wherever she might see it. If she asks, say it is yours and you are just trying to understand her "friendship" with OM. Be sincere. Let her read it only if she asks. If you give it to her, she will resent it and think you are trying to educate her. She needs to come to it on her own.

The feels of distrust you are experiencing are normal, especially because she is still in touch with OM and will not stop contact. Even after she stops contact, you will feel this way for quite a while, in both good times and bad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

There is

NO

SUCH

THING

But there is a such thing as "@$$holemates", and your W and the OM are such.

Sorry for the cynicism, but really, the sooner you dispose of fairy-tale notions of happily ever after and hunker down 2 the hard work of maintaining a marriage, the better off you'll be.


What you need 2 do in plan A is negotiate an end 2 the A. You can't tell her 2 end it, but you can certainly tell her what you can or can't accept for you and your kids within your M. At some point, you may have 2 decide 2 go 2 plan B if she doesn't end contact with the OM. But even plan B isn't 2 demand she do anything. Just 2 give her a taste of what she's sacrificing by continuing 2 make selfish choices.


The experts will tell you that it will take from 2-5 YEARS 2 recover from infidelity. I've been at it for almost 5 years now, though my W's A was on and off for 12 years.

-ol' 2long

I understand, Pete.

This is understandable - I mean, your confusion is understandable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

IMHO, and I hope others chime in, making Demands (capital D) in Plan A, while the affair is in full swing, is a love buster. A big one. A BS is in no position to Demand anything and expect it to be met. The WS will use that as further justification for the affair. Same for ultimatums, which is just a Demand with adverse consequences if it isn't met.

Small d demands - more aptly called "conditions" - can be communicated if done so skillfully so as not to come across as LBs. Doing this well in Plan A is an artform. Making small d demands in the form of "boundaries" are urged in order for the BS to communicate what he/she deems unacceptable, knowing that the WS likely won't honor them anyway.

Plan B changes things. The Plan B letter - which you may never need - overtly sets the BS's conditions for the return of interaction between the spouses. For all practical purposes, these conditions/demands are really ultimatums: dump the WS and commit to the marriage or you get none of me.

Similar to Plan B, if the WS comes around during Plan A and makes overtures to work on the marriage, NC should be a condition for that. How a BS delivers this condition is back to the artform and needs to be done with trying to avoid LBs. How much teetering the WS is doing dictates how firmly the condition is communicated. I bet you get the picture.

Does this help?

WAT

Peter:

Don't get into the semantics of a demand or a boundary, Just do it. I have a different word for you, instead of calling it a "demand" call it a "vow". She made a vow to forsake others and if she is unwilling to do that and you allow it then "Shame on you".

It is not being controling to expect your wife not to sleep with other men. And since you are wondering what she has not told you I am telling it to you first. She probably had sex with this OM. In all liklihood this is her secret. It is a hard thing to be honest for a WS when they have had sex with another person. My wife denied it also until I had so much evidence she could not deny it.

More bad news there is no such thing as a "Soul Mate". If your wife was yours only you would not have the problem you are in now.

Some of us are unable to get past this betrayal while others seem to be able to put up with anything their spouse will do with them. You need to decide what is your pain threshold. You cannot really work on your marriage until you know the truth and deal with it.

My wife lied to me about her physical affair because she knew it was a deal breaker for me. The EA was bad but I could look past it and she knew this. I then got a ton of evidenct on her physical affair. I learned that one of us was having a lot of satisfying sex in our marriage and it was not me.

If you can deal with that and move on that is half the battle. The thing you have to ask yourself is will she do it again?

IHadEnough -

How do you propose Pete not allow it?

Please give a specific recommendation.

WAT

It really is very simple. She made a "Vow" to forsake all others and while he cannot control her there are consequences to her actions. She has free will to do whatever she wants and so does he.

Now if he is her soul mate this should not be that difficult should it? If there are no consequences then none of this will work and in my opinion it not worth working on. He has two choices he can accept her doing this and tell her not too, or he can let her know the marriage will end if she chooses that path.

I had to face this same thing. I told her she could do what she wanted but if she sleeps with the OM we are done. She told me it was only EA and I knew she was sleeping with the OM from PI and emails and stuff.

I guess I don't agree with those that say you can't make a demand. You can call it a boundary if you like but it is the same thing. It is not worth being married to a spouse that cheats and continues to do so.

If they made an error and then are honest and seek forgiveness then I can see why a person would want to work on it. Otherwise I think people are better off without this person in their life. But Peter seems to think this cannot be an option. I disagree with that view. My wife can sleep with whoever she wants but she cannot do that while she was married to me. If people want to tell me I can't make that demand then I am saying I don't agree with them. I expect it and will always expect it in the future no matter who I am with.

Without consequences to actions it is all hollow. Peter may decide he can accept this and that is his right. But he has other options than to just say "It hurts me when you cheat on me". He also could say "I am divorcing you if you cheat on me". That is not a demand it is standing up for your "Vows".

Again, just my opinion.