Katie,

Sometimes I feel so absolutely lost in this situation, I have no idea what I'm doing. Lately, as I think we are really close to NC, I am feeling awful. I don't know if it's because I'm worried about my wife and how she's feeling, or if it's because I just have to think about it more. It's tearing me up, but I know I have to be strong for her, and for our marriage.

last night we were at some friends of ours who just adopted a baby boy, and my wife was just beeming when she held the baby. I could see in her eyes the joy, but also there was sadness. She has always wanted another child, and I didn't think I could handle more than the 2 we have. This is one of the problems in our marriage the last few years. We/I had agreed that we would only have 2, but it has caused tension and resentment ever since. I had been seriously thinking about talking to her before this EA happened, and talking about having a 3rd baby. Now I don't know. When I saw her so happy last night, it was tearing me up inside knowing that I had denied her of this happiness. Maybe once things have been fixed between us, I'll bring it up again.

As far as sleeping and eating, I've lost some weight and lots and lots of sleepless nights. I always seem to wake up during the night, and can't get back to sleep. This has been going on since the beginning. I don't think my wife realizes how little sleep I've been getting, but it is starting to wear on me. Since the emotional and mental strain has been so hard, the lack of sleep is just adding to it. Work has been really hard to concentrate, but the job I'm in has no supervision, so I have been lucky. But I know I can't keep this up, and have to find a way to focus.

We talked again this morning about NC, and I think it will happen either today or tomorrow. I feel so bad for her right now, but I know it is for the best for our marriage.

Peter...

[2long stands in doorway, tapping his foot]

Why don't you call for an appointment? You and your W need help, and right now, when she's as receptive but vulnerable as she is, is when you need it the most...

I'll stop badgering you now,

-ol' 2long

2long, thanks for all of your "subtle" encouragement in this. Just kidding. I really appreciate it. I have asked my wife what she thinks of counselling, and for now it is not an option. I think that she really feels that she needs to do this within the boundaries of her belief system, and counselling is not something she believes in.

I am thinking about getting myself into IC just so I can work through the issues in my head a little better. Finances are always an issue though, so we'll have to see.

Take Care,

Peter:

That's a very common response from a WS.

The Harleys are experts at getting the WS involved, AFTER they've had a session or 2 with you alone.

And unlike many ICs or MCs, they WILL coach either of you alone or both of you 2gether, and switch around at various times.

So, if you call, it's for YOU, first. Then possibly her (and like I said, they're very good at getting her involved at some point).

It's money very well spent, believe me.

-ol' 2long

I have been following your story for some time. I read quite a bit here, and usually sit on the sidelines, but your story has really stuck with me, and I feel I need to respond. Even though I do not consider myself an expert, and I may not be qualified to post here, but this is an open forum. I have been there and survived and affair as a BS.

Everyone here knows it, you know it, and I am going to say it.... This is not only an EA. You have got to come to grips with that and get yourself out of this denial.

NC has to start now!

Peter:

One more thing about coaching/counseling. I haven't always practiced what I'm preaching here. But it's because of that, and what I went through, that I think I know what I'm talking about - particularly relevant 2 your "place" in this process at this time.

My d-day was January 02. I started IC with a counselor at my work in February. She recommended I work with an IC in-person after the free 5-visits were up (but she gave me more, because I was such a mess at the time). My W would only agree 2 go 2 MC at our HMO, because it was only 5 bucks/visit at the time. My IC was 80bucks/visit, and I had a bunch of them. Probably spent a couple thousand bucks on him. He was helpful in some ways, but believed in "measured honesty" - he would have ac2ally advised my W 2 keep the A 2 herself rather than tell me about it if I hadn't found out on my own. I jettisoned him.

My W went 2 a couple ICs, again at our HMO where it was cheap. I may never know whether any of it helped her or not, because she says she went 2 them 2 find out why she was so "giving", not 2 help her end her EA (Her A was primarily an EA for 12 years, though the were physical on occasions as well - sort of a "same time next year" kind of thing, BARF).

I had one session with Steve Harley. Wish I had had more. But at the time I was in a "giving up" mindset. I was focusing on myself and detaching with love, just hadn't quite been as successful at it as I thought at the time. I had a number of sessions with Penny Tupy - trained by Willard Harley. They were helpful for me, but at some point I had 2 decide 2 stop "unilateral marriage coaching" because it wasn't doing the marriage any real good.

I haven't coached or counseled in well over a year now, but I've pretty successfully detached with love now. There's good and "bad" sides 2 that approach, though. Good, is that it's an emotionally healthy thing 2 do for yourself. Bad, is that a WS in the state your W is in needs all the pro-marriage help they can get, and since they're not willing 2 seek it out, you have 2 try 2 find ways 2 interest them. That's where one of the Harleys come in, and where they shine compared 2 your run-of-the-mill therapist.

Bottom line, you need some support in the form of a PRO-MARRIAGE coach or counselor. And sooner rather than later. You don't want 2 be like me - 4.5 years after d-day - and still not knowing whether your W wants 2 be or can be faithful 2 you.

-ol' 2long

Peter,

I think it would be helpful to visit your doctor and talk to him about getting on some ADs. I understand finances are an issue, but if you get to the point where you can't sleep, eat or perform at your job, it will affect your ability to earn those finances.

You just sound so desperate and sad in your posts... I think you really need some additional help. Medical help.


Please don't get down on yourself about the other child your W wanted so badly. I don't have children, and this was an issue that pushed me away from H initally (I wanted kids, he didn't.) The truth is, the way I dealt with that issue was MY CHOICE and the absolute wrong way to go about handling things. I feel terrible that I used that as an excuse for my A, when I could have easily continued to address the issue with H directly. You had a reason for not wanting a third child, and that reason was just as valid as the reason your W wanted it. You just didn't work out the issue constructively, and your W instead made a bad choice. Never, ever blame yourself for this, Peter. Ever. That being said, I think if it's tearing you up inside, it's an issue you both need to readdress when you feel ready.

Also, please listen to 2'Long. He's been where you are, and I agree it would be beneficial to get the Harley's involved. I know money is tight, but do you have a major credit card? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Peter- I wanted to echo Katie's comments about the 3rd baby. It is not the reason your wife had an affair. Please don't blame yourself. Babies are absolutely a POJA topic!!

Your wife is only 36. She can have another child, when your marriage gets stable. Maybe that could be a carrot for her?

Best wishes Peter.

I haven't posted for a few days because I think I feel even more confused now than before.

I was not aware of your ongoing situation 2long. Sorry to hear that, but it sounds like you have got things pretty well sorted out in your head. That's impressive after 4.5 years of uncertainty. I don't think I could make it through that long.

So on Thursday night my wife phoned the OM, and I was sitting right there with her, and she told him she was very sorry for her part in this whole thing, to me to him and to his wife. She told him that she couldn't remain friends with him and that she was ending things as of now. There will be NC between them from now on. It was very hard on her emotionally to do it, and for me as well. But I was very proud of her for doing it, and I thanked her and told her that I love her.

The feeling I had after I can't describe. It was very sad, but also a sort of sense of relief. I was glad that it was done, but also unsure of what comes next now. I still have all the same feelings, and good and bad times. I had one of the worst dreams I've had about my wife and the OM last night, and so today has not been good.

So what happens now in recovery? I know we need to work hard on our marriage, but I feel like this isn't over for me or her yet. I feel like if we just move on, that it will be forgotten, and all the pain that I've gone through will just be brushed aside. I know this is selfish, but that's how I feel right now. Is that normal? I also feel like there is more distance between us right now, I feel anger from her towards me, and it makes me more angry and confused. How can she feel anger towards me?

I'm just having one of those days, and need a little encouragement I think that things will get better.

Take Care,

Peter,

I don't have a lot of time to post but I wanted to let you know that I read your message and will respond more in depth tomorrow.

I'm so glad your W called OM with you there... that's fantastic news! It's been three days now... how is your W doing?

Now comes the hard part.... recovery. It's tough, but if both spouses are committed, rewarding. It's a constant up and down... H and I have been on a "down" swing recently. But it does get better... much better.

Keep your chin up and I will post more tomorrow morning. You're doing well, Peter!

God bless,
Katie

Peter,
I am not as experienced as others on this site: My husband had an EA where he was not expressing a romantic attachment to OW, just enjoyed her attention and kept it secret from me for 3 weeks--he felt at the time--no romance, no sex, tell her I love my wife--no foul. He went NC as soon as I discovered their large volume of contact and he was very remorseful. So that's my only experience with this. This experience has given my H and I a lot of information to improve our M.

Did you tell her about your dream? It seems like if you were able to tell her about it and how upsetting it was to you that this would continue to help her see the situation from your perspective.

I did a lot of LB during my recovery and I hope that that part of it is over. I feel like it is finally over. So hopefully, you will be able to talk to her without LB. My H put up with the LB because he felt he deserved it.

He did not deserve it. I don't know if there was cause and effect involved or just a correlation but right after I was able to acknowledge my bad past behavior towards him in the M, I felt less like the wronged saint and more like a human being with faults of my own within the M. My faults do not involve any type of EA but I have had my faults.

Do you know yet what her ENs are? You might want to print out the questionnaire and show it to her. Maybe that would be a way to get her started. If you just talk to her about the questionnaire, she may be negative about doing it. But if you just have it there, ready for completion, maybe she will take a look at it.

It must be hard to feel anger coming from her. I give you credit for being able to face that and continue on with interacting with her. You must love her and want to build up that love.

I always knew there was no such thing as "true love" It took this situation of the EA and this web site to help me know how to increase the behaviors of love in my M.

It is great news that she called OM and went NC. I have been concerned for you and her. This is a good step for your relationship.
Take Care
Lake

Peter,

Your W is feeling angry because you are withdrawing her from her drug.

H and I changed my cell phone number together, but H contacted my internet provider and closed the email account I used to correspond with OM. I told H he could do this.

As soon as the account closed, I was absolutely furious... at H! Who I asked to do that for me! It was my last outlet for contacting OM... and it was gone. I was very resentful of H for at least a week. Then I came out of the fog and was grateful he did it.

Your W will eventually feel better... OM made her feel "good" and you are taking that away from her.

It is very sick, but it's the way it is.

What will help your M in recovery is to keep talking. Never brush anything aside, ever again. Everything is discussed and you now come to conclusions that you both feel good about.

Lake offers great advice... the EN Questionaire would be a very good thing for you both to do. H and I waited to do ours, and I wish we had done it sooner. I think you also should tell your W about your dream, as Lake suggested.

Things WILL get better. They will also get worse. H and I are starting MC again this week. We have been spending lots of time together, have been talking and getting along very well, but there is this underlying sense of disconnect that just isn't going away. We can't seem to figure out what it is, so we are seeking professional help again.

Recovery is a rollercoaster... from what I understand, it can take up to two years to recover from an A.

KM

Peter,

Rinderella posted a link to a wonderful site a couple of weeks ago:

www.coping.org

It has a lot of very useful information, including self-improvement and helping exercises. There is even a section on relationships that you might want to take a look at, and maybe share with your W:

http://www.coping.org/relations/content.htm

How are things going today?

Katie

Katie, thanks for the congratulations on the NC. Things do feel different now. My wife and I had a great talk last night, and really felt connected again for the first time in a while.

I was a really stange day though. I could sense yesterday that there was something wrong, and she was annoyed with me. I asked her about it last night, and she said that she was just having a bad day, and that it had nothing to do with OM. I told her I just naturally worry right now that eveything has to do with him. That is my own problem though, and I think it probably doesn't do any good to tell her this.

I asked her some more questions that I had last night, and she answered them without getting upset. She told me that on Saturday night,(I was out with a friend at a football game), she had a bit of a hard time being at home alone with the kids. She thought more about OM, and wanted to call him but didn't. When she tells me this stuff, I know that she still has a ways to go. She used to love having quiet time at home where she could do some of the hobbies/crafts that she loves, and now she worries and gets bored at home.

I was sorry to hear that your having a "down swing" right now Katie, but like you said, things will get better.

Take Care,

Lake, thanks for the suggestions. I have been following your posts and am happy for you that things are getting better for you. I think if my wife had been able to do what your husband did, and establish NC back when I first found out, it would have made a huge difference in how I feel now. Instead it went on for 5 more months. That is probably the hardest thing that I'm dealing with right now. The how and why she could have continued. We have both always said that we had a great marriage, but there were obviously things that needed work.

My wife means the world to me, and I will continue to try my damndest to fight throught this, and be as loving as I can. It is very hard when she is angry at me, and I just want to say to her that she has no right to be angry at me after what she has done. But I know that would be a LB, and right now I have to try and be understanding of her feelings, and make her feel safe in talking to me.

The EN's questionnaire is a good idea. I don't know if she's ready yet, but I think I will ask her to look at it. I will fill it out for myself as well.

Take Care,

Peter, It is really good news that she was able to tell you this--the fact that she felt safe in sharing it with you. It sounds like you must be doing a good job in making her feel safe. My FWH had a very hard time right after the EA exposure with being away from me. I don't really think he missed OW because he very quickly gave her up. But he needed to be connected to me. Maybe it is that they need to be connected to someone at this vulneralble point in their processing of all this.

If you go away from her again--can you call her? Same as with when you are at work or whatever--can you call her? I know that my H was calling me all the time after D week and he needed it and I needed it. We did lots of lunches together, and our mutual hobbies together. He needed it and I needed it.

Could you talk to her about her craft projects? Are there some that she has completed that bring back fond memories or are there some that are left unfinished that you could motivate her to finish in some really positive way? Like, remember when you bought this lace, you told me you wanted to put it on ____ and I thought this was very innovative of you. I look forward to seeing it-or whatever.

I know my H did not want to talk about the EA and I did. He put up with it ad naseum. Sounds like your FWW is not quite at this point. Maybe you won't need to go over it and over it like I did. I hear that Dr. Harley promotes focussing on the present relationship and future relationship--not on the past.

I'm just that kind of gal--going over and over the past. We did do a lot of activities together--partly because my H was on vacation for 3 weeks and i was also.

I do think it helped me to acknowledge to him that I am not perfect--he had been talking to me about how honest and forthright a person I am and how he did not feel worthy of my affection. He also said he was having a hard time with not viewing himself as worthless and a very bad person. I think he felt so bad in part because I took it all so hard. It has been very hard for him to see me in great pain.

How is your W feeling about all this?

You two can get through this. Have faith. I am doing much better--I'm sure you can too.

It really can be a dark gift. I have learned what I need to be doing and not doing in my relationship with my H. I think I am a better person and he is a better person now.

Take Care and I am relieved that you seem to be on the road to recovery

Lake

I think I'm similar to you Lake in that I like to go over things in my head. I keep asking questions to try and make sense of things in my own head. My wife is usually pretty good at answering, but she thinks that I torture myself by trying to figure things out and always asking questions.

I still wish that she saw things the way I see them. I don't think its fully sunk in yet how much she has hurt me. I don't know if this is just my own pain speaking and wanting her to feel the same way I do. I know that she is feeling a lot of guilt and pain over what she did, she just shows it differently than I show things.

I am working on the things that I know that she needs from me, and trying to meet her EN. The biggest EN I think that I haven't met yet is the number of children we have. We have 2 wonderful daughters, but when my wife and I first got married, we made an agreement to have 3. She had always wanted 4, I wanted 2, and we compromised on 3. When we had the 2 girls, I didn't think that financially or emotionally I could handle another one. This has been a huge resentment of her's for a few years, and while she tried to hide it, I always knew that it was there. Now I have been able to see that I was wrong, and want to try again. I was at this spot of telling her just before I found out about the EA. Now I want to wait until things are better, but I know that this will be a huge thing for her and our marriage. I just wish that I had known this a few years ago, and not tried to change her mind back then.

Take Care,

Peter,
You are probably aware that the R with the other man was about her and not about the other man. The R with the OP is an addiction and is about your spouse, not about the OP. I can clearly see that with my H and he is very aware of it also. Maybe your wife is not fully aware of the addictive nature of the R with OM yet--and that it was all about her, not at all about him.

My H was really in a fog about how much he was contacting her. He had no idea that he was calling her one to three times a day and e-mailing her on average three times a day during that last week leading up to D week.

He is not at all an addictive personality--but he was addicted--not to her but to the lift he got from the correspondence which reminded him of youth.

Sounds like your W is really in a nurturing mode. It sounds like she still thinks her R was about him needing her. She doesn't realize that it was not about him needing her. He does not need her. It was about her desire to nurture and to feel good about being such a good nurturer. Don't feel bad about not jumping right into having a baby right now. I am sure she has plenty of ways to feel good about being such a good nurturer.

I have experienced magical thinking through my recovery. I have thought in a vague sort of way that maybe I would find the answer somewhere that would erase the pain, or make me realize that it did not really happen, or that it was only a dream. Along with all this, I was trying to figure out--what really did happen?? I think I am finally coming to a balancing point about what actually happened--an addiction--that was only about him, not about OW.
Take Care,
Lake

*sniff*

That was a beautiful email, Lake!

I'm a little teary.

Peter, Lake is DEAD ON.

Have you thought any more about sending your W here?

That was a great post Lake. I know that the R was all about my wife and her needs. It is just hard to understand how that can lead to what happened. I have been trying, like you, to figure out why this happened.

There must be some logical reason for it that we can fix. Maybe it will all go away eventually and we won't even remember it. I just want the pain to go away. Are some people able to get over it easier than others? Why is this? Is it the inner strength of that person that helps them. I keep tormenting myself with self doubt, and I know it is still early. Is this normal for the first while after NC is established.

Katie, I have mentioned this site to her a number of times, and have told her some of the stories. I hope you don't mind, but I shared your story with her. She has asked several times since then some questions and how you are doing. Most of the time I think it would be very helpful for her to look at this board. But I also think it will be very painful for her. I think she is still in denial about how serious it was what she did. The most important thing for her is that she didn't cross the physical boundaries, and I don't think she sees how deep the emotional hurt is for me. She can't understand. I am so proud of her for not going any further, but I think if she saw that she was one step away, it would really help her in the future to make sure it won't happen again.
I don't want to hurt her again by having her look at this site, but I also think it will help us work through the issues together. I think that her big worry is that she is not ready yet to handle what she will be told here.

Take Care,