Peter,
I was putting the last sentence on a long post to you and lost it.

So the shortened version:

Logic--Given: Humans are capable of addiction, Humans have emotional needs, Relationships are not static.

I felt the kind of pain you describe. Self doubt was a biggie early on.

I'm certain no research can point to inner strength that helps a BS get through this. I imagine that getting through it has more to do with both H and W's desire to get through it and the amount of productive effort they put into getting through it. Relationships are complicated.

The pain will decrease. My pain is at the moment more a memory of pain. I went through a rough roller coaster ride and I hope I am at the end. It ranged from trying to prove to my H that we are great together all the way to anger and everything inbetween.

I found out all the detail I could and he shared some detail with me recently that gave me great pain as he shared it. But in retrospect--it wasn't what I was afraid it was.

He did not want a physical relationship. He drew the line in his own mind early on--nothing physical---just ego-boosting fun. He got hooked. He put himself in a position where theoretically, he could have had a physical relationship. He didn't and he didn't want one.

Maybe your W is similar. She didn't want a physical relationship and she drew that line for herself. She got hooked on the type of EA that she had. She put herself into a situation where theoretically, it would have been easy to have a physical relationship. But if she drew that line, and did not do it--it does not mean she actually considered becoming physical. She had drawn that line. I am not certain that I am explaining myself well. I suppose it is just a journey you have to travel like I did.

I hope your journey is short and that you and she make some good discoveries about your R along the way. Like I have been told by one very smart poster: This EA could be a dark gift to you and your W. My H and I have had good times during R as well as trying times.
Regards,
Lake

Lake,

I have thought the same thing as far as this being a "dark gift" for my wife and I. I was under the impression that things were fine between us, with a few of the normal marriage problems that everyone has. What has happened has really opened my eyes to reality. I have always known that marriages take a lot of "work", and have never been one to shy away from that. But I think when my wife and I couldn't reach a compromise on the 3rd baby that we were both happy with, things changed. We had always had problems as far as religious differences, but were willing to accept those. The baby was the straw that broke the camels back. As part of what I am calling my "rebirth" after this EA, I want to meet that need of my wife's. I know now that I have the strength in me to handle having 3 children, and I have the love and caring in me to be happy and joyful when it does happen. I didn't always have this, and I am grateful now for that gift.

As far as drawing the line on a PA, my wife has always been very firm on this. She drew the line very early, and didn't cross it. She gets very upset when I say anything that could even suggest a PA. I know that she would never have done that, and I believe her totally. But in the back of my mind, there is the thought that won't die yet. I never would have said a year ago that she would have had a EA. How long will it take for this feeling to die? I just hate having this doubt about the future in my head. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get rid of it, or just to find a way to live with it and accept it?

Take Care,

""She gets very upset when I say anything that could even suggest a PA""WHY!! She dident do anything

As a said before i firmley belive it was a PA two.

I dont think a 24 year old would settle for a EA with a women that is 12 years his senior..And risk his own marriage

For simpley an EA..Sorry but you are to trusting

Good question, how long does it take for the feeling to die. Suggestions on how to get rid of the pain? Mine is fading, but can anyone else who has dealt with an EA help with ideas?

I have found that asking questions and getting answers helps. Also, spending quality time alone with S helps me--activities where we plan something as complicated as a week-end get-away to as simple as a take-out dinner and drinks.

Any other insights from those who have dealt with this for a longer period of time than Peter and I have?
Lake

Lake,

Here is an example of the wild mood swings we are experiencing right now. On Tuesday night we got an email at home from the gym where my wife used to work. It was from a former coworker's email address, and it was just passing on some information about some friends of my wife's. But as soon as I saw it, the tone and the way it was written, I knew it was from the OM. I was mad. He had written an email a month ago saying that he would never email again, and yet he sent several after that, including this one.
Anyways, my wife then responded to the email and said that while it was nice to get the info, she would prefer it come from someone else. I was so proud of her for doing this. But what I didn't know was that I had left our email open, and I had been doing some comparisons with previous emails sent from this work email address. I just wanted to see if he had been using that email before to send. He hadn't, and I had already figured that out when she confirmed it. But she was so mad that I had been doing some digging. It lasted until yesterday afternoon, and we were both mad at each other. She doesn't mind that I am watching her, she just doesn't want to know about it. I told her I will be more careful to not let her know, and she said she would try to get less upset about it.

Then last night, we didn't bring it up and we had a really enjoyable evening. The ups and downs right now are amazing, and I thought once NC happened, things would be better for me. They are better, just not the way I thought. It's just going to take time, and we both know that.
I am so grateful to have MB as an outlet where I can chat and just talk about my feelings without worrying about what repurcussions there will be. It has been very helpful to read all the other stories, and so many successful recovery stories.

Take Care,

Peter,

I know... thank goodness for MB!

I'm sorry OM continues to disrespect you and your W by sending sneaky emails... typical OM. Be aware that your W may in some ways construe this as "romantic" (in that he just can't keep away from her, *sigh*) instead of the disrespectful behavior it is. She might think of it this way or she might not... I just know the first few times I tried NC with OM that's what I felt when he tried to get in touch with me... "boy, he really cares about me! He can't live without me!" It's a bunch of hooey, and the truth is OM doesn't give a rat's $#@ about your W and he demonstrates that by not honoring her request. I'm glad you were able to figure out it was him sending the email. Next time, she should not respond at all. This contact, unfortunately, will bring her back to the beginning of withdrawl. Scumbag OM...

I'm sorry your W was upset with your snooping... she's right though, you shouldn't tell her! Lol. You need to snoop... as you can see, OM is still trying to contact your W. He even sent the email through a friend's address! He will now try to get sneakier. He might even email her at work. Don't tell her what you are doing... it will make it more difficult to find anything... you might want to install a keylogger.

Peter, I hope you know when I tell you what your wife may be thinking/doing I understand that your W is a good person and she is trying her best. It's that little addictive part of her brain that she has a hard time controlling... even if she has the best of intentions... that I'm referring to. I highly recommend contacting OMW and letting her know what her H is up to. This will make your W mad, but you will do anything to protect your M and she will see this once she gets over the initial anger.

Things with my H and I are getting better... yesterday he brought me flowers... the first time since before D-day last year! When he gave them to me, he said "these are the first flowers I've bought you since that day... I just want you to know how much I love you." I was thrilled... I cried. We're starting MC again on Monday. It certainly is an up and down, isn't it?


KM

Peter -

A suggestion you may or may not act on --

Injunction against harrasment.

My OM was a huge pain. Text messaging, emailing, calling the home phone. Even more infuriating was that he'd go 1 1/2 to 2 weeks between contact. So we'd think he was over then we'd hear from him again. Last straw for me was when he texted my W's phone during a lovely conocert that she and I were attending. I acted as if I were my W responding and made him feel pretty bad about himself. Childish I know.

The following week I filed an injunction against harrassment. That was about a month ago (6 weeks?)and all has been quiet since.

I would have preferd that my W file but that's another story.

An injunction - the ultimate in protection.

I had a rough day yesterday--just dredging old information and feelings back up--don't know why--no real triggers. Like you, I keep trying to make sense of it all and keep coming up with slightly different versions or view points of what happened. Also, have a small injury that has prevented me from running over most of the summer. Took up bicycling but not taken the time to do it this past week. Guess I'd rather spend the time perseverating and wallowing in self-pity (sarcasm).

I read this post this morning and it helped me--was similar to some thoughts that I had had a few days ago about how I better stop the martyr attitude. I am re-posting it just in case you haven't read it. Hope this is a legit. thing to do:

QUOTE
Will he read anything you print from here?

Would he read this? I copied it from a post by Mr. Goodstuff. It really spoke to me and my WW.

I want to paraphrase an old post by a fellow named 2ofakind. I always admired him for his candor and logical way of thinking. He was a wayward spouse that rebuilt his marriage (with the help of his wife) into something really great. He helped me to take a step back in my marriage and view it from a distance. When I took a step forward back into the marriage I was better prepared to recover.

I was at month two and my wayward wife desperately wanted to save our marriage just as Honeygirl wants to save yours. It was me that was slowing the process. I was hurt, betrayed and crushed. I felt little hope or self-encouragement to move forward yet I stayed. I needed something more, something that would allow me to act instead of idly standing bye while my wife tried to soothe my damaged ego. I could not bring myself to accept her overtures.

It was 2ofaKind that suggested that it was ME who would decide whether of not I was willing to ALLOW recovery. He said something like,

“You CAN choose divorce and not even God will blame you, but you are staying and your choice to stay has consequences just like your wife’s choices. It means that you do not get to hold on to the “you are bad, I am good” trump card indefinitely. Ouch. Sure, in the initial phase of recovery you can expect her to do all of the heavy lifting and you can afford to be a bit self-righteous in your indignation. After all you were the good spouse and she was the bad spouse. Unfortunately as you are discovering, this is not a tenable position because if you are going to go from a walking trauma case back to a healthy, secure and happy human being in a solid relationship you need to get back to being equals. You might say, “I didn’t do anything to deserve this, she had the affair, it’s not fair”.

No, it isn't. It sucks actually but that does not make it any less true. If you choose recovery then you both must be responsible for it's success or failure. Obviously, if she keeps up contact or other destructive habits (privacy concerns, hiding things, unhealthy behaviors) all bets are off. If however, you have a horrified, repentant and desperate to reconcile wife and are unwilling to participate in the work then you are to blame for YOUR actions. While all of your choices may currently SUCK in a really big way, they are your choices. Your acknowledgment and acceptance of your choice to choose recovery makes you a responsible party to its success or failure. Further, it gives you back a little control over your life and that builds self-esteem.

For the first few months it is AMAZINGLY convenient to pull out the affair whenever an argument is going awry, isn't it? “Honey, it's your turn to do the laundry” ... “Well that may be true but YOU HAD AN AFFAIR!” Helluva trump card, ain't it? Putting it back in the deck will be a lot easier if you remind yourself that you are choosing recovery for the same reason your spouse is choosing to be faithful and repair the horrific damage she has done to the marriage - because all things considered, being happy and having a happy family is more important than being right.”

You have made note that your self-esteem has been wiped clean by your wife’s terrible betrayal. Believe me when I say that I know how you feel, unfortunately from firsthand experience. You may not have thought of this but you are not alone. There is another person whose self-esteem has taken a direct hit. You guessed it, your wife. Here’s the worst part. While yours gets better, hers gets worse. Remember this as one day it will fall to you to help her along. She wants to be a good person and she will look to you to legitimize her once again.

Please consider these words as you travel your road.

Mr. G
END QUOTE

Heal, Heal, Heal,
Lake

Huge congratulations on the good news about you and your husband Katie. I am very happy for you. You're a great inspiration with the success you've had in rebuilding your marriage. I am very grateful to you for your words of advice and compassion. Thank you and congrats again.

Take Care,

I don't know, Peter... if I deserve congratulations, it's for marrying a man with morals, decency and integrity... I suppose I have grown and learned quite a bit, but I have a feeling that all of the sadness, anger and heartache are long from over. I'm just very blessed that H and I have agreed that we are in this for the long haul... I will not leave him, and he will not leave me... the pain will help us grow and hopefully heal with time.

I just wish I never, ever did this to him. I wish I never did it to myself. To OMW and family.

Anyway, how are things going with you? Are you and your W still talking about all this? Any more breach of NC attempts with OM?

KM

We are still talking Katie, but not nearly as much. I have pretty much stopped asking questions, even though I still have some more. I will probably still ask at some point, I don't if I am just asking for more pain, but I always feel a sense of relief to get things off my chest.

We had probably the best weekend we've had as far as not fighting and having any tension between us. I am making more of a concious effort now to not do any LB and to try and concentrate on myself as much as her. It is so hard though, since she has been the focus of my life for most of the 15 years of our marriage. But I know I need to take care of myself more now, as we start to build our new marriage.


There is something that I know will cause me more pain that I have to do. OM gave my wife a birthday present back in June that she still has. I found out a couple of weeks ago that he gave her 2 presents, and 2 cards. She showed me the first present on the day of her birthday, and I lost it when I saw it. The card didn't say much other than wishing her a happy birthday, and the present was a carved angel friendship statue. So she put this away and asked if I would consider letting her keep it. Then I found out about the other present 2 weeks ago, and my wife told me that the card has some things in it about his feelings, and he signed it Love OM. I asked her if I could see it and she said yes. So far I haven't pursued seeing it, but I want to do it soon, and then I want to burn both of them. I know that this will hurt my wife, but I can't stand the thought of her keeping any mementoes of this relationship in our house. And it hurts to think that she would still want to keep anything that could cause me any more pain. It would be a constant reminder to me and her of what happened. To me, it would be like me keeping some of the porn magazines that I used to buy, and telling her that I will only look at them once in a while. I know how she felt when she told me that she couldn't stand having anything like that in our house.

I know that things are getting better between us, and the NC has been solid for 2 weeks now. It helps so much to know that they are no longer in contact. I still have doubts about how long it will last, but I think that is just because it is still early. I have a lot of hope now that our marriage is going to be stronger than it ever was. There are still going to be ups and downs, but we are both 110% committed to our marriage and our family, and that is why it will succeed.

Take Care,

Hi Lake,

That was a great post on how recovery will work. I have read it a few times and it has helped me each time.
But the last few days I have been feeling really low again. I just want her to say that she's sorry over and over and that she will do anything to repair our marriage. But I know that is just the "taker" in me, wanting to be soothed. And these feelings come and go.

On top of how I've been feeling about her, I also have to go to the doctor today to get some test results back. I am very nervous about this, and that has probably been clouding my thinking for the last week as well.

On the good side, we are going out on a date on Saturday, first real date in a while. We are both very excited and
looking forwared to spending time together and having fun.

I am thinking about saying something to her on Saturday about the 3rd baby that she wants us to have. I really want to get this out of my system, it is something that I wanted to tell her before I even found out about the EA. I think that when I tell her, that I will be meeting one of her biggest EN, and it will make both of us very happy.
Do you think this is a good idea now, or is it better to wait still?

Take Care,

Peter,
It is great that you have a date for Saturday. I know I really look forward to our dates and they help me tremendously.

Saying something about the baby she wants--that is a very heavy question and I don't know that I feel competent to give feedback on that. I hope others will also respond as this is a very important question.

My humble and somewhat uninformed opinion:

I feel strongly that children who live in an intact family have a greatly increased probability of being better off than children who's parents are divorced or separated. Having a baby creates tons of joy as well as stress.

Of course, radical honesty is also from my view an issue here: You are feeling the need to tell her something that is on your mind about having the 3rd baby. I understand your desire to share with her information about how you are feeling about that 3rd baby.

I guess my question to you is--what is it that you want to share exactly?--that you want to start trying for a baby, that you feel you have enough love and nurturing ability to have a 3rd baby?, that you want to try for a baby when you are back together emotionally? What is it you want to share with her?

I don't think it would be a good idea to start trying to have a 3rd baby right now while you are still in the emotional roller coaster.

However, I can understand your desire to share something with her.

What do you more experienced marriage builders on this site have to say?

I shared this question and my response with my H as I value his thoughts on this subject.

I think I am coming out of the most difficult part of my journey and am relieved. I feel a better sense of calm and a better understanding and acceptance of the fact that he is only human and that his mistake was one that a truly good human being could make. His remorse and conduct since NC has been exemplary.

We indeed do have a far better M than we had before the EA.

I hope your test results bring you some relief from this worry.
Lake

It's really encouraging Lake to hear that things are so much better for you and your husband. We are getting closer to that day as well, but still have a ways to go.

As far as the 3rd baby, I just want to tell her that I am so sorry that I took that decision away from her a few years ago, that it was wrong of me to do that when we had previously agreed several years earlier. I want to say that when things are better emotionally for us, that if she still wants to I would like us to try for another baby.

How do you think that sounds?

Take Care,

Peter,
It sounds like this is something you really want to say to her. My only reservation is that you do not jump the gun and start trying for another baby too soon. You have a lot going on right now in your life and everything is very emotional. Just be careful to make certain that when you do start trying, you are both truly ready.

Any thoughts on this from anyone else?
Lake

You're right Lake. I do want to talk to her about this badly. Like I said, it was something I was going to bring up 7 months ago, and I was actually going to tell her on our anniversary back in February. But that idea got shot to ******. So now it has been on my mind all these months, and I know that it will help her in terms of our relationship. It is something that she desperately wants, and has never truly forgiven me for going back on my word. If I tell her that I am sorry that I ever made that decision, and that I know that I was wrong, it will go a long ways towards healing some of the things that need healing in our marriage. There are of course things that she needs to do as well, and maybe this will be the first step.

Just so everyone knows, I only want to tell her right now, and not start trying until we are further along in recovery.
So my question is this a good idea or not?
Thanks everyone for your help with this.

Take Care,

Hi Peter-
I've been silently cheering you on. I keep reading your thread, I keep hoping things go well for you.

So I will chime in here:
Yes, I think it's a good idea to tell her. I agree with Lake- don't get pregnant now, but it's a very nice healthy connection between you and your wife.

I think I told you this before: it's a terrific "carrot" to motivate her to buckle down and get to work with you on your marriage. Even more importantly, she will see that YOU can give her something that OM can NOT- this third beautiful baby she (and you) have always wanted.

Good luck Peter!

Hi 09,

Thanks for the good wishes. I agree that I think this will be a good connection between my wife and I. I keep thinking about how beautiful she looked to me when she was pregnant with our first 2 children, and it gets me very excited to think of her carrying our child again.

I have been following your story as well, and wish you and Messdup all the best. I was really touched by the love and effort you both seem to want to put into your marriage. It was obvious right away that you 2 love each other. I think our stories are very similar in some ways. Good luck in your recovery.

Take Care,

So last night I couldn't wait any longer and I asked my wife if I could see the present that OM had given her for her BDay in June. She had already told me when I was ready she didn't have a problem with me seeing it. So she brought it up to me and I read the card and opened the box. It was one of those angel carvings that you can get in card stores, and it said something about holding you close to my heart. The card talked about all the fun times they had together, and he closed it off by saying he would always be ther for her, and signed it Love OM. The part that bothered me the most was the I will always be there for you crap. I have always been there for my wife, when she needed me and when she didn't. How dare OM say something like that to my wife. I was pretty furious inside about this, but I didn't say anything. My wife asked what I wanted to do with the gifts, and I said I would like to return them to OM. I didn't think she should have accepted them in the first place, and returning them would finish that. She agreed that would be okay.

Then I told her about how I felt about having a third child. She was stunned. She cried, I cried, and we both felt very close to each other. It was a good healing time. We agreed that we won't do anything about it now, and just continue the process of healing. I said that I want to be in a better spot before we go ahead and start trying. She has been in a great mood since then, and this morning I felt for one of the first times since this happened that she let down her guard and just wanted to be with me. She was very affectionate, and it was so nice to feel that.
We still have work to do, but I feel like the recovery process is moving along. I just wish that the nightmares and bad feelings in the pit of my stomach were gone. I get them a lot less now, but they are still there.

Take Care,

Peter,
When the OW came to my house, she brought a "gift" in with her--something she happened to have with her--not really something for me. She gave it to me. After D, it hung around the house for awhile. I finally asked H to take it with him when he was running local errands and to give it to a relative as I did not want to see it.

He simply threw it in the garbage and I think that was a good idea. He did not want to actually hand it to someone--it had repulsive memories for him also and he did not want to think about or engage in any of it. I do think this was best.

I encourage you not to give that gift back to OM. He has nothing to do with you and your wife now--I think you are hanging on to the fact that he has nothing to do with you and your wife--you are re-living the fact that he has nothing to do with you and your wife and reminding him that he has nothing to do with you and your wife.

Let it go--don't re-involve him by giving it back to him. You don't have to remind him that he has nothing to do with you and your wife. The act of giving it back to him re-engages him in your life even as you are telling him that he has nothing to do with you and your wife.

Let it go. If you and your wife can't throw it out, give it to Goodwill or Salvation Army.
Lake