St*rfish, I've read your post to believer. I know you've been on for a while (as MB member for some time) and I find your advice to be very helpful. The same for you Orchid. You've answered my questions sometimes and been very helpful.

I wrote today about the book I read about the proper feeding and care of husbands. In the past I made a lot of mistakes with my H. I treated him in ways that disresepcted him and I've gotten a chance to see things more from his point of view. I'm ready to show him unconditional love. And I do.

However there are loose ends to tie up. I've talked to the Harley's about our M twice. They told me boundaries need to be established and a recommitment on his part needs to take place and I need to work on building intimacy with him but without SF until he recommits to our M.

My story is in my sign. below. He had 1 EA/PA and 1 EA.
When he was confronted and his boss notified the A was ended. He was somewhat transparent but somewhat hesitant on some things. The OW recently left his job and there is no more communication between them.

However he kept contact with a woman that he talked to when he had problems in our M. He stopped that earlier this year also. However, recently she has tried to contact him. I told him that I would like for him to let her know that he doesn't want anymore contact with her but he doesn't see it that way. I don't want to issue an ultimatum. I don't feel it would help. Especially since I'm wanting to show a different, new side of me.

So I'm wondering how I can make the next step and how I can handle the matter without pushing him away. It is difficult being intimate and affectionate without SF. And it seems that our relationship now has been nicer than it has been in some time. So I guess I want to keep steering in the right direction and not push him away.

LLG,

Harley talked about boundaries....and that's what jumps up at me too. What do YOU think the difference is between an ultimatum and boundary? What would a boundary statement surrounding his continued contact with other women look like?

BTW....I think there is some great stuff <even astounding stuff> in Dr. Laura's book. I've listened to her radio show and I think some of the stuff she says is brilliant. Unfortunately....I'm unconvinced she likes women very much. I see some evidence that she tips the scales and blames women for most of the ills associated with marriage. What women do badly....they do VERY badly. However....I'm waiting for the book about caring for wives....then maybe....I'll feel her view is more balanced.

Also btw.....please don't feel to bad about not loving "unconditionally". It's a myth. Romantic love (as opposed to parental or spiritual love) comes with conditions (and I think it ought to)....Harley's stuff is entirely based on that reality. If you treat me badly enough (or in your case....if your husband disrespects you long enough by continuing contact with other women) I'm going to stop loving you because that kind of love HURTS.

((((((((((((((((((LLG))))))))))))))))))))

I guess an ultimatum and a boundary can be similar. However maybe the difference is that the boundary is stated with as much safeness or safe words as possible. Whereas, an ultimatum maybe angrily stated.

Maybe a boundary would sound and look like:L Honey I'm concerned with continued contact with past friends that you've shared our personal affairs with. Friedns that you've told me you wanted to be closer to but understood that you were out of place because we are working on being closer to each other. It is important to me that you inform ____ that you will no longer be in contact withher and that you are working on your marriage.


Is this what you've bringing out?

No chere. There are distinct differences between boundaries and ulitimata. Boundaries are about YOU....ultimata are about HIM.

Ultimata imply punishment....IF YOU don't do _______, I'll do _________. He either does things your way....or he will face retribution, shame and punishment. That's what's implied by an ultimatum.

Boundaries are designed to protect you. They define what is or is not tolerable to you. They talk about what the consequences (what actions you'll take to protect yourself...not punishment) will be if something crosses those boundaries.

So an ultimatum about his contact might look something like this:

*If you don't stop communicating with this woman, I'm going to (insert threat) cry/yell/smash your windshield/leave you/divorce you/expose you/hurt you/have an affair.

A boundary might look something like this:

*I hurts me too much to deal with your continued contact with this woman. I hope you understand, but after the affairs, I'm far more fearful and sensitive about that issue and realize that I may need to protect myself and separate from you if it continues.

The problems is....if it continues....you need to ENFORCE the boundary, otherwise it's just an idle threat and all your husband has learned is that your boundaries are fuzzy, mushy and don't really mean anything.

I think Harley was telling you to protect yourself....stop tolerating his bad behavior....stop teaching him that you he can trample your feelings....and stiffen up that backbone chere!!

I posted something a while back....I'm going to repost it for you:

It is the fear that paralyzes you, sends blood rushing through your veins, sours your stomach, and interupts your sleep. It is the fear that gives away your power, your hope, and your forgiveness. It is fear that robs you of the active self and traps you in the role of patronizing enabler who will take them back at ANY cost...even if the price is too high. It is fear that keeps you from confronting and exposing. And fear that prevents you from enforcing your boundaries and having compassion for yourself.

Fear of abandonment.
Fear of rejection.
Fear of reaction....yours, theirs.
Fear of future...the unknown.
Fear of destitution and want.
Fear of failure.
Fear of losing.
Fear of loss.
Fear of solitude.
Fear of settling.
Fear of change.
Fear of lack of change.
Fear
Fear

Infidelity creates FEAR....and fear is crippling. Research shows us what we already know in our hearts....when we are fearful....we are unable to fire up the parts of our brains that "process" information on a logical, rational, spirtual level and create solutions that increase the odds for success in crises. When we are fearful....we don't use our neocortex....but instead, it is our limpic system which lights up our MRIs....our animal brains wired for "fight or flight".

There is no HOPE in our animal brains....because our indentity, our souls, our compassion....don't reside there. You are only capable of conflict or escape when you are there....so you must find a quiet place to deal with your fears so that you can confront, expose, do all the things that overcoming infidelity entails....all the things that happiness entails. You must value yourself as well as protect yourself, without fear of losing your WS or enforcing boundaries.....because if you don't....all your fears will be realized anyway.

MB is not designed to trap you in a marriage where your feelings are crushed and disrespected or the vows of marriage are meaningless. It's designed to help you overcome fear and give you hope that marriages CAN recover from infidelity....but you must be brave and be willing to risk losing your WS in order to regain trust, fidelity, security.

You must be willing to see beyond your pain and take logical and systematic steps to undermine the affair and increase the stability and security of your marriage. That takes courage above pain. It takes the peacefulness of knowing you are strong enough to lose a self indulgent and unrepentant spouse or recover with a flawed, but motivated one.

Don't let your fear take back a spouse who isn't ready to do the hard work recovery after infidelity entails. It is an invitation for misery.

If you don't believe you CAN survive without your WS....you cannot do what you must do to ensure success.

Stop being fearful of their threats...they are just excuses to leave or be selfish.

Stop being fearful of their reactions....their reactions arise from their guilt...not your boundaries.

Stop being fearful of taking a stand....it's the only way to gain respect or trust.

Stop being fearful of being alone.....until you can stand on your own and risk losing them, you will NEVER know if they remain with you by choice. And you will never know if you want them or you NEED them.

And if you need them....even if they return....you are in trouble chere.

thank you for the posting. It is very insightful. Yes, i am concerned or have fears about how to move forward. But I realize that we can't really recover if people are between us. I tried to reply earlier but my PC was acting weird. Excuse my delay. Thank you again.

LLG,

I can't add to much more to Star's post. It was great. At this point why wouldn't there be boundaries and ultimatums? This is a marriage arrangement with 2 parties involved, NOT 3.

When my Xws came home for good, there were boundaries and ultimatums. When both weren't met, plan B kicked in for me instantly. The stakes went up not down.

See for me an ultimatum is not necessarily a bad word, you just gotta be able to keep your word and NOT back down once the ultimatum has been made. Same with boundaries. So consistency is important and of course the BS can't use either (ultimatum or boundaries) as a threat. You either mean it or you don't.

What was and is important is what I have defined as acceptable in my life and that of my family. That is a boundary.

L.

Thanks Orchid. My situation is difficult because my H isn't in the affair anymore. My problem is him letting the old friend know that isn't going to communicate with her anymore. Since he hasn't talked to her since earlier this year, according to what he says he feels that it seems weird to tell her no contact. However I find it very important because of their history of him and her coming in and out of each other's life and him telling her this and that about our personal affairs. And also his sneaky attempts to try to work up a relationship with her when we were rocky.

I talked to him last night and told him that I would like for him to send her NC letter. He agreed and we will work on it this weekend. I anticipate that he may reconsider when the time comes. But I will see.

Even if there isn't a full fledged OP, anyone in any R can be a triangle to your M.

The point is you have an M that makes you feel safe, cared for and loved. You make it the same for him in return. You remember the verse which says......'that is why a man will leave his father and mother and stick to his wife.....what God has yoked together, let no man (or woman) pull apart.'

When the A rears it's ugly head.....this verse really hits home. No longer is it just a verse to recite. It is the reason why NO one s/b allowed into the M outside of the H & W. Children are part of the family and even they have their place separate from the R between a H & W.

take care,
L.

I totally agree with this. One of the things that hurt me deeply is that when I tried to break up my H's A with the 1st OW and 2nd is that he told me that I coudln't tell him who to be friedns with. What added insult to injury was that these women (when I read them royally) had the audacity to tell me the same thing.

It was like they wanted to act as if the friednship which had crossed from friendship to an A was more important than our M. Often times I cried that my H had more loyalty to them in this regard but actaully thought it was ok to try to be with me sexually and any other way.

I hope to establish that other peopel coming between us is a problem for me. Recently we visitd his family and I got criticism from several of my in-laws on one thing or another from how to discipline my kids to my weight. As if I hadn't wanted to tell them that they raised a very, childish acting immature man in the broken, abusive home that he came from. And even in all my heaviness my MIL is hardly prettier (smaller yess, lol) now or even back in her day than I am.

When I expressed to him that it was uncomfortable for me to hear it, he actually got mad at me. Oh boy my anger is rising thinking about that.

I feel he is adverserial toward me and it is hard to accept it but I realize the errors on my part that may have influenced it. None-the-less, I intend to discuss the matter with him.

Ok, so u r ready to tackle this monster....kinda like an elephant in the middle of the room syndrome, eh?

Hm..... howz about getting better prepared so that not only will you expect t/b knocked down but you will have a bounce back plan that will knock 'em off their feet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok? Now it is actually pass my bedtime so my response may not come back until later in the morning, 'cuz I'm out in the middle of the big blue and it's about midnight here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Yes, Orchid. Get good rest and relaxation. May your sleep be sweet.

It is time for the talk. How do I get prepared to take down the elephant?

Also, I posted how my H agreed to send an NC email to the friend that has come between us. Well, I asked him if he had drafted anything. He said no. I wanted to get started with it. But he has his mind on other things(SF) and so do I (have my mind on other things).

This is my concern how do I address these things without turning him off. He refused counseling and he said once that I read too many books that tell me that I have to do this and that. As if what I suggest isn't reasonable. So it seems that I'm going to have an obstacle already trying to discuss the matter.

What tends to happen is that I just stay away from him when it comes to this. Emotionally and sexually. I enjoy being wiht him in these ways and I end up giving in to it later on. However I'm tired of going back and forward with this. Weeks without SF. And then the issues that concern me go without discussion at all. I'd like to break the cycle but don't know how to address my concerns and not annoy him.

Go read His Needs/Her Needs...again if you need. It will give you ways to communicate with the other gender. Very different mindset. Worked for us.

Now H initiates convos and reminds me the need to communicate! Imagine that! This is from a major conflict avoider (runs in his family) person.

You will find there needs to be a signal (c/b a sentence or word) that each of you use to let the other know communication is being requested. Expect him to balk at it at first. Mine did. This stuff takes time.

For us we use the phrase: Can I ask you a question????.....

1. If there is no response, I stop.
2. If he says yes, I go ask my question and wait for the answer.
a. If there is no answer, I move forward.
b. If there is an answer, there c/b dialogue to follow.

We use this phrase to each other on major and minor issues. So it is not a major trigger for something bad. It c/b a question about something positive, negative or critique of sorts. Basically it is the door to open the communication.

I have learned to say and do less. In return, I get and hear more. Hm..... talk about a change in habits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But there was hope for us and we are still learning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hope this helps....make sure you read the book.

L.

Hi.

Orchid I took your advice and ordered HNHN next day mail. I think I'm communicating all wrong with my H.

Well he promised he would send a NC email to a woman that has come between us on several occations. However as usual when it comes to this he declined to do it this weekend as we agreed.

Now Dr Laura's book helps me to understand this a little bit. She says that men are sometimes not likely to comply with something that seems too diffcult. If this is the case, that it seems too diffcult to write out the words why wouldn't my H tell me this.

I've been trying to rationalize what is going through his mind. I realize that I've contributed to him turning toward talking to this chick in the first place however I do not plan to engage in anything too intimate with someone that refuses to do what makes me feel more secure about our R in the first place.

So today my H stormed out of the house, frown in place, angry that I wouldn't give him any. Then I feel, "The nerve of him!" I don't know. I have no intent to manipulate but I don't have any to be taken for granted again either. I feel that I'm right but maybe I'm wrong.
Are my actions just unwise?

One good thing about it is that I've learned to keep going on with my day regardless. So this is what I''m doing next. Appreciate your hearing me out or more like reading my thoughts.

Ok, I finally admitted to myself and accepted that I've been withholding certain things from H for two reasons. One being vengence, and the other being my desire for him to at least compromise and meet me half way on at least doing some of the things he promised to that are MB principled.

My H still hasn't written NC letter to woman that was between us. On top of that he told me that OW was suppose to be leaving his job a month ago. Who other than her did I see at the job the other day? I feel that I'm about to start just phasing him out and concentrating on myself. But I know this would be me treating him in a LBing way. I am sorting out my thoughts but still am having problems getting in touch with what is going on with him.

We do not discuss the A or her being at his job or anything. Last time I mentioned something to him about it he blew up at me after I hadn't mentioned anything to him about it at all. So I'm stuck at figuring out what to ask for or say or just do nothing. I'm just wondering what to do.

What t/d? Make a plan to be safe. The A is still going on. Even if it is only in his head.

He has no right t/b angry at you. As a recoverying BS, you s/b able to ask any question and if he is truly in recovery, he will oblige. Once you get to a safe place, those quaestions will subside, so tell him this:

As long as you don't feel safe, it is hard to give love. The ask him what is he going to do to make you feel safe. If he blows up, implement your plan B.

This means your heart and mind must be in sync. Is it there yet? When it is and you secure your finances and housing.....you can execute plan B. You see as a BS you no longer want just to have him physically back. Your taker needs more. The whole enchilada or not at all.

How do you feel?

L.

Orchid, I feel shaky. My Love Bank is so near empty. I know I've been wrong about a lot but I've changed a lot too.
I feel that seperation is just about in order but I would have to secure some place to stay. I'm a stay-at-home mom/wife so I'm not sure where I would go. I had a job but we agreed ot my leaving b/c he wasn't able to care for the kids while I wasn't there, being tired from work and what have you.

I wrote him a detailed letter asking him to allow me in more to open up the subject for O& H communication. I also asked him to do a few other things that were pertaining to MB prinicples and he didn't reply.

My heart and mind are prit' darn near in sync. I don't want to go forward in the same vein. Not with there not being any compromise between about issues that would help me feel secure.

Got HNHN today...I know, far overdue for me to have purchased it. It is really spelling some things out for me. I am still nervous thinking about the future and the developements of late but I'm accepting doing what I may have to do.

Orchid: I am sorry you are feeling weak and scared. Part of what a BS goes through.....here's something that I was told to do when I came here and felt exactly as you are now.

Take your right hand and put it on your left shoulder, now put your left hand on your right shoulder. Squeeze.....there.... you have now received an MB hug from me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Believe it or not, that post gave me such strength. I felt funny at first then I realized, I had support. Not always physically but in spirit and when I needed to I could also give myself support. That poster taught me a lot that day. Score 1 for the BS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: There are options you may not have uncovered yet. Talk with other SAH moms. See if there are some sort of co-op type of support or work groups you can participate in. Some become Ebay type sellers or like my H go to auctions and sell on E-bay, craigslist.org or garage sales. Be creative.


Orchid: Be patient. You have stated what is important to you. This w/b confusing if he is holding onto his WS state of mind. Often it takes 2 - 3 times as long to get over the A as it lasted....maybe longer. This is when it gets hard for the BS. Your ride isn't over yet but you are now in more control of the direction.


Orchid: You will know when u r in sync. You will feel the strength and confidence come back. You will tolerate less stupidity and know that whatever crappola comes your way, you will either fling it back via tools like reverse babble or step over it and move forward. The WS will have less of a hold over you and you will find that is a greater weapon than fighting or begging.


Orchid: Glad you go the book. Pretty interesting yet common sense stuff, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Let us know how it goes.

take care,
L.

Thank you. I did feel better after giving myself a MB hug. Thanks for the support. Also i am learning to emotionally support myself. Definitely this is important during this journey I'm on.



I am considering this one. I do want to have my options available if I have to go out on my own. He has said to me also that he wouldn't leave me and the kids without. That he would help me if we seperated.


I do think my H still thinks with the WS mindset. He feels that I overexaggerate mmaters and mke mountains into molehills. This disappoints me greatly. Before it used to devastate me. However it is an issue that is a problem for me. He feels that it is ok for him to feel one way and not consider more importantly that the act of betrayal that he committed was really hard on me and for me to deal with.


LOL. I was thinking about reverse babble today. i think it is so helpful when trying to stay focused on what the issues are and what is important. I will review your page on it.

I have been refraining from too much intimacy with him since he renegged on writing the email to the chick. He came in begging for some, you know. So I gave in. I asked him if he had an idea as to why I'm less affectionate at times. He said no, he thinks I'm trying to use it to my advantage. I'm gald he said this. It is O & H. I told him, no that isn't what I'm doing. I told him that there are issues in security that stand between us and this would be our last time without engaging in conversation about it.
I don't know I'm not getting what I want from him by not being intimate. He thinks I'm trying to get something. Even though he is pretty liberal with giving me what I ask for. So i don't know what he means or if he has even thoguht about it.

That is such WS babble. When mine told me similar I told him that's a good idea.....w/hold sex to teach him a lesson. I asked if he learned anything yet. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Stupid WS'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> As you can see I gave him a reverse babble response. Had to. His statement was too stupid to respond otherwise. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.