Hi everybody.... although I am here reading.... I haven't posted much.... I am mostly in PLAN B limboland!

Well....in WS's 'weekly' phone message re boys and other details.... WS is again inviting me to consider to 'meet and discuss'.......

I am guessing he is wondering if my position has changed.....it's been awhile...... and if not, trying to 'manipulate' me into feeling 'BAD' about it.....and I would like him to know that it hasn't..... and dot the «i's» again...only because he is bringing it up, again!

I would appreciate your comments..... I know it might be too long.... but WS has a way of 'denying' or 'ignoring' his part on how we got where we are......preferring to 'forget'..... and put the focus on ME not wanting to meet with him..... and so I find it important to point out how his CHOICES got us and keep us here, too......(in French, of course....and maybe in writing this time, rather than a phone message...to be sure!)

«WS,

at the risk of repeating myself.....yes, I agree.... it would be preferable for us to meet and 'talk'..... however....

given the fact that.....one day, even though you had chosen to have a family with all the challenges it brings... you gave yourself permission and chose to place a 'third' person between us... regardless of the consequences .... next.....rather than end A with OW and seek help, you preferred to leave your family instead...I found myself to be part of a triangle.....

given the fact that....I chose to be your wife...to build and face the challenges of having a family with you, not to be part of triangle....I was left with the option of 'removing' myself from the triangle.....and that is what I have chosen to do....by no longer being in direct contact with you.....

.....so...I will consider your invitation, take into account your intentions, the day you SHOW me that your family.... your wife, your kids and yourself.... are again a priority in your life......»

.....of course.... I could also choose the 'no comment' route..... but WS is in fogland.... and is still 'imagining' that with time I will come around... I need to be crystal clear....for WS....and for MYSELF!

Luna,

So you've been in a completely *dark* Plan B for a year?

Hi Star,

As 'dark' as I can be given the circumstances..... we have two boys that alternate one week each.....so we need to pass on information about them and also finances (have some property together), etc....because we don't have anything 'legal' in place......we do it by weekly 'phone messages' (it may change to email messages once he gets a computer!)...... but that's it...I have stuck to my 'guns'...no R talks....no meetings..... and I am the first one to be surprised that I was able to do it.... as you can see from my signature.... we have been M over 20 yrs!

I accidentally 'ran' into WS maybe twice or three times in one year....at the bank, on the street.... and considering that he was living a block away (he has now moved further away).....I am actually surprised it wasn't more! ....in case you're not familiar with my thread, Star,..... he also has chosen not to live with OW.....for now....

...but, WS 'invites' me on a regular basis to meet and discuss....hoping that I will come 'around' (or to have someone to blame?)......I suspect he wants to be more 'involved' (read: control) with what is happening at home.....even though he has chosen to move out.....maybe one day..... even 'appear' to still be a family, on and off....at his convenience!

and I have been singing the same 'tune'...... WS can be very persistent..... in his LALALAND..... he can be both.... married and single (with GF)!

I am somewhat divided...... a 'no comment' reply...... would leave him in the 'dark'...... the reply I am considering....confirms or reassures WS that the 'door' is still 'open', even though 'conditional'......but it is true...for now.... it's open if the condition, end A, is met!

Hi Lunamare - Don't worry about sounding like a broken record. "When you are ready to recommit, let me know, but until then, I have nothing to talk about." I said this 1,001 times if I said it once - like with telemarketers: "I'm not interested...I'm not interested...I'm not interested..."

Thanks Allforone,

.....that's my thinking..... and like you.... I am truly not interested in being in any R with FWS.... and have no problem confirming it 'over and over' if that's what WS needs..... I have had experience in my 'younger' days with 'triangles', before committing to M..... and I promised myself, if I cared enough about myself, not to be part of one ever again..... sooooooo destructive.....

I am going to 'sit' on my reply for one day...try to 'shorten it'... and will decide tomorrow....I hesitate....because a WS can 'twist' around just about anything....just NOT TO HEAR.....but then I don't really know where he is at exactly....

...but it's been l yr for WS and OW, too, and since I am in PLAN B and don't really know how things are with them..... although they may still both be in fantasyland.... I would think that even one year of reality can put a 'dent' in fantasyland... particulary for WS... who I really surprised by going to PLAN B! ...I am sure he thought he could 'come and go' as he pleased.....he still can't believe, I guess..... since he is 'testing' me on a regular basis.....to be truthful....I can't believe it myself!

....I like PLAN B.....I am thriving in PLAN B.....

I have my moments..... but nothing compared to if I weren't in PLAN B!

luna,

Thanks for the added info. One of the things I wish more folks would really do in Plan B is to get an intermediary....because even the visitation and financial discussions are sadly "contact" and undermine the purpose of Plan B. He sees you....but it's a "cold" you....or a conflicted you....and not seeing you at all would be far better. Unfortunately....that's not possible for every one....but ideally it is the way it's done.

I'm one who believes that there's a time to stop blaming on the "fog" what is easier to explain by lack of character and weakness. Sometimes WS are give a "fog pass" for too long. After all this time....most of the fog has cleared I think....so you may need to reassess WHO you're dealing with.

I think if you're going to stay in Plan B....then you need to make Plan B darker....not lighter. Do a refresher letter with the conditions....and go deeper underground. I think if you believe the fog is clearing....and if any contact is going to occur for any reason, you might want to make the most of what contact you have. Right now, you're not really doing either. He sees you sparingly enough to miss you....he sees you often enough to feel your anger. It's neither Plan A or Plan B.

Hope that makes sense.

Hi Star,

quote:---------------------------------------------------
One of the things I wish more folks would really do in Plan B is to get an intermediary....because even the visitation and financial discussions are sadly "contact" and undermine the purpose of Plan B. He sees you....but it's a "cold" you....or a conflicted you....and not seeing you at all would be far better. Unfortunately....that's not possible for every one....but ideally it is the way it's done.
----------------------------------------------------------

I know.... I agree....that would be the best.....an intermediary.....but it's not that easy to find one..... and I know that passing info. that is strictly 'facts' is in fact 'contact' and a «cold» one at that.....but I hope I made it clear that I don't have any direct discussions with WS and I we don't meet.... the best I am able to do right now is to limit our exchanges to 'messages'......

quote:-----------------------------------------------------
I'm one who believes that there's a time to stop blaming on the "fog" what is easier to explain by lack of character and weakness. Sometimes WS are give a "fog pass" for too long. After all this time....most of the fog has cleared I think....so you may need to reassess WHO you're dealing with.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Again....I agree with you, Star..... which is why, unless WS offers a clear sign of interest in recommitting to M, like deciding to end A with OW and other steps..... I really am not interested in having any R with WS...and take it as my mistake in judgement of character on my part, and continue on with my life..... although I do wonder if at some point, once my 'emotional' wound gets better, if I will allow some contact for the sake of the boys.... but it will take me such a long time..... I figure, by that time, the boys will be adults, and it won't matter as much anyway!

quote:-----------------------------------------------------
I think if you're going to stay in Plan B....then you need to make Plan B darker....not lighter. Do a refresher letter with the conditions....and go deeper underground. I think if you believe the fog is clearing....and if any contact is going to occur for any reason, you might want to make the most of what contact you have. Right now, you're not really doing either. He sees you sparingly enough to miss you....he sees you often enough to feel your anger. It's neither Plan A or Plan B.
------------------------------------------------------------

....I can't say that I feel anger....so I don't think I am conveying anger to him......and I do think WS would very much like to 'see' me....literally..... and often uses the 'boys' as an excuse to ask me to break PLAN B because he knows how much I care about them, and yes, to feel better, he offers to 'help'......

I wish I could think of a way to make my PLAN B darker than it is right now.... the only way I really could is to 'legally' settle the financial aspect....which pretty well means going the D route.... which I am not ready for yet.... and WS, inspite of it all, does not seem to be interested in taking that route either right now....... guess he is waiting for me to do it... I think he already feels enough 'guilt' as it is.......

quote:--------------------------------------------------
Hope that makes sense.
--------------------------------------------------------

Yes... it does..... I have had similar 'reflections' already..... Thanks.

quote:----------------------------------------------------
*I came to this site to change my husband. He did change.....but not because I made him change. I made him want to.*
----------------------------------------------------------

Star... I am not too familiar with your situation.....is your thread or a summmary available on MB? I sure would like to learn from your experience!

In some way....given that in mid-July last year I started PLAN B and wedding anniversary is July 28th.....and that he may no longer have my initial PBL (he moved and is not very organized).... I might as well reconfirm to him that, one year later, my position has not changed about what needs to happen if he wants to 'work with me'......because, yes, I do think that the 'fog' should be less 'present'now..... after one year.....and leave it at that.....

Thanks, Star, I appreciate your taking the time to post to me.

luna,

There was a long thread with the narrative of my life on it somewhere in JFO....I haven't tried to find it in a long time....but I can try if you'd like. It's a very different story from yours and doesn't lend itself well to a recap. The first few chapters are missing....but most of it is there. It hasn't been updated.....so there isn't as much about recovery or any of my continued education on marriage.

You mentioned that you don't know how to go "darker" but you made a suggestion yourself to go strictly to EMAILS....I think that would be excellent!, and if you decide to rewrite your Plan B letter....you could specify that future correspondence will be done that way. If there is not legal separation in your state....then you're right....finances would have to be settled with divorce....and I think that's premature given what you've said. There might be some legal mediators who will work with people to do this however....so that's one avenue to explore. I mentor some couples, and I know one couple who are mediating finances right now (after their divorce actually) and are very happy with it.

If he doesn't see your anger during these limited contacts....what kind of "you" do you think he sees? A happy you? A detached you? An aloof you? A fun you? An attractive you?

((((((((((((((((((luna))))))))))))))))))))

Hi Star,

quote:-----------------------------------------------------
You mentioned that you don't know how to go "darker" but you made a suggestion yourself to go strictly to EMAILS....I think that would be excellent!, and if you decide to rewrite your Plan B letter....you could specify that future correspondence will be done that way. If there is not legal separation in your state....then you're right....finances would have to be settled with divorce....and I think that's premature given what you've said......
-----------------------------------------------------------

You are right, Star....that's something I can do......add: 'let me know when you get your computer so that whatever we need to communicate can be done by email'..... because I have a sneaking suspicion that he gets a 'luna' fix by hearing my voice in my phone messages.....I would certainly be 'darker' that's for sure!

quote:--------------------------------------------------
If he doesn't see your anger during these limited contacts....what kind of "you" do you think he sees? A happy you? A detached you? An aloof you? A fun you? An attractive you?
--------------------------------------------------------

Good question!

....compared to when WS first moved out... a year ago.....when I was a total basketcase...... crying, paralyzed and confused.....

When WS drops by the house now, because we have a 'big' dog that moves back and forth with the boys each week that WS picks up and drops off at our house.... he sees indirectly (not literally because I am never there for the drop off or pick up)....

- a Luna that is taking charge of the house (he was the handyman when at home....but I do have potential in that area if I set my mind to it!).......when initially I was questioning whether I should even stay at the house.... given the memories....the upkeep, etc.)....
- a Luna that is looking after the yard..... cutting the grass....planting flowers....
- recipe books in the kitchen...
- a Luna slowly attacking the 'basement' that needed major 'cleaning up'.....
- a Luna that is looking to hire labour to finish up 'unfinished' decor business around the house given PLAN B situation (although he offered to help!)....
- a Luna that goes out.....because I am not at home every night (I call DS10 when with dad every night and not always from home) ....but WS does not know what I do or who I see!
- a Luna who is 'dealing' with a WS on her own..... no OP in her life...just some good friends who stick by her..... (....and my 'secret' weapon....the MB Board!)
- and in a couple of the unplanned 'sightings'.....a Luna that was 'looking good'
- more or less, WS sees a Luna that is taking charge of her life...with or without WS

In my weekly phone 'messages' to WS, which by the way, I still 'write out and practice reading first', to make sure I stick to 'facts', to not say anything I would regret, and to not forget anything in order to limit it to one a week as much as possible: I stay polite, to the point, provide answers to questions WS leaves me relating to boys and finances, generous with info. about the boys to help with weekly transition, and, as I have said before, consistent in my position that I will have no direct contact with him until WS chooses to recommit to M and family (beginning with ending A with OW) when WS has asked that we meet and discuss 'things'.... usually the 'boys' is his excuse....
and, unlike some other WS, he has remained polite with me also in his messages.... no verbal abuse ...and were it not for the A..... one would actually say that WS respects me in a lot of ways..... as strange as that may seem.....and my voice?...... hard for me to be 'cold'..... so...probably..... neutral-sounding....

.....inspite of the year-long 'distance'....because of PLAN B..... I do realize that the one major 'bond' that nothing can take away from the two of us...is our two beautiful boys! ...from one or two comments WS has made about the boys sometimes.....it makes me realize how much WS is 'itching' to share with me 'things' about the boys....which, sharing with anyone else but me, is just not the same!

Thanks again, Star....for taking the time to reply to me......and for your HUG!

I am still not used to people taking the time to 'hear' me....my friends have been more than generous with me with their time..... I didn't know how much some people cared about me and appreciated me until this past year!

bumped for comments. Thanks.

Well... got up this morning...slightly modified my message/letter that starts off this thread, and left both a phone message and written note for WS.....

....I dotted the «i's»..... if WS's fog has slightly lifted.... he may see through his choices and the choices he has before him.... up to WS to decide what he wants to do..... I am glad I am giving him a 'refresher' PBL...... he was much too much in the fog last summer...... may still be in it.....but there is nothing else I can do.....

I choose to not be part of a triangle....I prefer to be 'alone'.....rather than be part of any triangle..... I am in PLAN B..... choosing not to see WS unless OW is out of the picture....to start with..... the ball is in WS's court.....

Luna <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I've been meaning to say this to you for awhile !

YOU have come such a long way !
YOU have transformed yourself to someone who really has personal power.

Star*fish, when Luna was first here, she was one of the worst basketcases in recent memory. She's not kidding when she says she was a basketcase !

In fact, for awhile, I had to stop replying to her because she was just too out of control of herself & I figured she could not hear anything said to her.

It turns out I was mistaken. She heard everything, but was temporarily paralized with fear. When she found her feet, she ran with her MB tools and really has done a nice job, I think. I am mentioning this to you because of your recent thread about us "old-timers" & our attitudes .... LUNA is an example of one of the posters who helps me keep a positive attitude.

So Luna, you have helped ME probably more than I ever helped YOU !

Thank you Luna!!!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep.....thanks for those comments. Sometimes people ask me....why do you stay? I've even seen it implied that there's something a little bit "squirrely" about those of us who stick around after getting our marriages on track LOL :splick:. But there are lots of reasons. I stay because of people like luna, and you, and countless others. I stay because I keep learning. I stay because I like the discourse and the debates....it keeps things fresh in my mind for my own marriage. I stay because I feel as though marriage is a worth the effort of advocacy. I truly believe if we can't save marriages....we are failing our children and ourselves. And when someone reaches recovery, or self discovery....it's like watching flowers delivered. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Luna....make sure that your H knows you're closing the door on the affair (tightly)...but not the marriage. Remove all hope that you will be friends until that is over...but not all hope that you are willing to work on the marriage.

So many WSs want to continue the "friendship" in spite of the A...."for the sake of the children". It's not the lack of friendship that harms the children....it's the A that harms them, and the chaos and conflict that surrounds it. You can be a loving, responsible and civil co-parent without befriending a WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There's nothing wrong with being friends at some point....but only when you're ready to let go of being anything more.

Hi Pep, thanks for dropping by!

quote:-------------------------------------------------
YOU have come such a long way !
YOU have transformed yourself to someone who really has personal power.
-------------------------------------------------------

Yep....I agree with you 100%...

quote:--------------------------------------------------
Star*fish, when Luna was first here, she was one of the worst basketcases in recent memory. She's not kidding when she says she was a basketcase !
---------------------------------------------------------

Yep... I agree with you 100%...and Star....you know you can believe, PEP...

quote:----------------------------------------------------
In fact, for awhile, I had to stop replying to her because she was just too out of control of herself & I figured she could not hear anything said to her.

It turns out I was mistaken. She heard everything, but was temporarily paralized with fear. When she found her feet, she ran with her MB tools and really has done a nice job, I think. I am mentioning this to you because of your recent thread about us "old-timers" & our attitudes .... LUNA is an example of one of the posters who helps me keep a positive attitude.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Geesh....Pep..... aren't you glad you 'stuck' it out? .... yes... I was 'paralyzed'... totally 'distabilized'...... but sooner or later...got up on my feet... and ran with the ball!

....let ME be a lesson for the old-timers.... to please NOT give up on newbies...please believe me when I say that your efforts are NOT in vain!!!!

I don't know what I would have done had it not been for the MB support.....and let me tell you..... I was such a basketcase that nobody would have blamed you for giving up on me... as the saying goes.....'it must have felt like trying to get blood out of a stone'..... but I really really appreciate your 'sticking' by me.....and I will never get tired of saying it!

quote:----------------------------------------------------
So Luna, you have helped ME probably more than I ever helped YOU !
-----------------------------------------------------------

....anytime, Pep!

(((((((((((((PEP)))))))))))

Hi Star,

quote:----------------------------------------------------
Luna....make sure that your H knows you're closing the door on the affair (tightly)...but not the marriage. Remove all hope that you will be friends until that is over...but not all hope that you are willing to work on the marriage.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Well, here's the final version of my note to WS (more or less, because we communicate in French!):

«...with regards to your wanting us to meet and discuss.... at the risk of repeating myself: 'yes...I agree...it would be better were we to meet and discuss...'

However, inspite of the fact that you chose to build a family with me and that...not being perfect either one of us...accepted to face life's challenges together....one day you gave yourself permission and chose to have a third person come between us...and then....instead of ending the A and seek help....you chose to leave our family...and, being your wife, without my choosing, I found myself to be part of a triangle...

...now...I, WS, accepted to be your wife because I love you very much, and because I wanted to build a family with you, with all the challenges it would bring, to have our own family, our own 'home', for the two of us and for our two boys, and not to be part of a triangle and have a WS who is someone else's BF....so...the one choice I had left was to remove myself from the triangle...and that is what I have chosen to do...

...and seeing that you will have internet soon....I think it best that at that time, we communicate by email...and so it will no longer be necessary to leave each other phone messages, which you don't like doing anyway...

For the time being, I will manage my life as if our family: you, me and our boys - given the choices you have made - we are not important enough to you to consider making a committment again to your family...unless I hear otherwise from you.

Luna»

Now....I am not sure how a WS could 'read' otherwise between the lines....but I think I am quite clear about where I stand!

Hey Luna,

Good to hear from you. So you know how to rock the WS' world without lifting a finger. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think Star's suggestion about the e-mails is a good one. Keep it short and concise but not necessarily sweet may be the bait that draws him back to his family.

See it paritially was curiousity that drew him out. Well they both shed their clothes so what else is there to see!??!?! Now the task of real life steps in and the A is no longer 'fun'. That is now in you favor. The A is a short lived fantasy no matter what spin a WS and oP put on it. The family on the other hand (including the M) is a lifelong commitment which has no room for any 3rd party.

I resorted to e-mails because it was much better for me and it infuriated the OW. See the more time the WS has to spend reading, commuicating, picking up the children....the less time he gets to be a WS. Awwhhaaa......there's a tool right there, see it?

Just want to add my voice of praise with Pep and Star. I too have been watching your progress and am glad to see you grow in this journey. You have taken the high road and left the WS in the dust.

If there is any recovery, don't move from where you are, let the WS come to you......not as a WS but as an Xws them as your H. By the time he reaches you, he should be your H.

take care,
L.

Hi Orchid, nice to 'see' you.....and thanks for the support....

quote:----------------------------------------------------
I think Star's suggestion about the e-mails is a good one. Keep it short and concise but not necessarily sweet may be the bait that draws him back to his family.
----------------------------------------------------------

I like the idea, too.....my WS is not 'computer literate'.... but with his work.... he has no choice..... he will have to learn....and Luna is not there to help!...yes, I am looking forward to switching 'communication' to emails..... but he might not.... he wanted to 'meet and discuss'..... things are definitely not going according to 'his plans'!

quote:---------------------------------------------------
See it paritially was curiousity that drew him out. Well they both shed their clothes so what else is there to see!??!?! Now the task of real life steps in and the A is no longer 'fun'. That is now in you favor. The A is a short lived fantasy no matter what spin a WS and oP put on it. The family on the other hand (including the M) is a lifelong commitment which has no room for any 3rd party.

I resorted to e-mails because it was much better for me and it infuriated the OW. See the more time the WS has to spend reading, commuicating, picking up the children....the less time he gets to be a WS. Awwhhaaa......there's a tool right there, see it?
-----------------------------------------------------------

I, agree....for now....WS is only available to OW one week out of two.... and even that week,I think WS is 'on call' for work because he doesn't have the boys and so his schedule is more flexible! ...if I were the OW..... I would find that preeeeetty frustrating..... and WS doesn't like having 'limits' put on him....so...if OW is at all 'demanding'......it doesn't look good in lalaland!

As Dr. Phil is used to saying..... you choose the behaviour... you choose the consequences!

quote:---------------------------------------------------
Just want to add my voice of praise with Pep and Star. I too have been watching your progress and am glad to see you grow in this journey. You have taken the high road and left the WS in the dust.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, Orchid....yep...it hasn't been easy.....but taking the 'high road' can be very satisfying....I am very proud of myself for not having fallen for WS's manipulation 'tactics'......

quote:----------------------------------------------------
If there is any recovery, don't move from where you are, let the WS come to you......not as a WS but as an Xws them as your H. By the time he reaches you, he should be your H.
----------------------------------------------------------

You bet....

....and how are things with you, Orchid?

Luna,

We are fine. I have been busy (when haven't I - LOL!!) with caring for an aunty. She is in a care home nearby and we take her on her errands or just get her out and about on the weekends. She is becoming somewhat needy so with the encouragement form her sister, she has been trying to be more independent. She has no children and her H is well.....let's just say he used t/b an Xws and she spoiled him during their M so he grumbles a lot. Quite an eye opener for my H, who now sees what happens to a spoiled Xws. LOL!!!

All in all....we are doing ok. I got to go to the beach this week. Got a bit too much sun and my shoulders are still stinging a bit. 1st time in months. NO excuse since we live only a few minutes away from the beach but the routine of work, work and more work, just makes it seem so faarrrr away. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for asking.

take care,
L.

Thanks for the update, Orchid....

((((((((((ORCHID)))))))))))))))))