Hi-

I am new, and I am sure many of you can relate to the ****** I am experiencing now. Sorry if this is long, or hard to understand.

First of all, things have not been good for years—I have tried and tried to talk and effect change, but my spouse says he is happy, he doesn’t see what the problem is, and refused to go to counseling with me.

So now, everything came to a head about 4 weeks ago with a big blowup initiated by my spouse after several weeks of him becoming increasingly irritable, always angry with me and the kids, and just seemingly miserable. He had a big birthday at that time, and says that as it approached he realized that his life was “half over” and he needed to really consider his life and what he was doing. He says…

During the blowup (which started as a fight he picked), he said he wasn’t sure if he loved me anymore, but that he did not want to separate or divorce..that he wanted to take care of me and the kids, and he would never leave me to raise our 3 kids alone. He said (something he has said before in the past..might should have been a sign then) that he just doesn’t need anyone..he is fine alone, and not sure that he can love anybody the way other people define love, or if he has ever been able to. He says repeatedly, he just does not know what he wants.

During this, I asked, having recently had suspicions, if he had feelings for someone else—he said absolutely not, but given some of the person-specific innuendos I had made recently, he came back a while later and said he had put “2 and 2 together and realized I was referring to XX, and no, there was nothing going on with XX”.

The deal with XX is she is the single mother of a child who is involved in 2 sports with my child, so that is how my spouse and she got to know each other, along with several other parents who all pal around together. Since it has been started as a father-son thing to attend these things, it has remained that way while I watch the other kids. Also, my spouse is avidly involved in one of these sports, so enjoys being at the facility whenever he can.

So my suspicious mind got the best of me, and 2 days after the big blowup discussion (embarrassingly) I went snooping in his cell and bb..i found 3-4 calls to her (the most upsetting of which was the day AFTER our big blowup, for over 20 min) and her and her childs bdays noted. I got busted the next day, and I apologized for snooping....he wanted to know what I found, but wasn’t that mad (“a little ticked”, he said). when I mentioned the calls (the others were 3 min or so, max) he told me what they were about, and I have since confirmed the content essentially via other people. In response to this, he said he understood this was not a good thing to be doing, tho innocent, in light of our situation and he told her that day he could not really talk anymore. I do know he for sure told her this, and to my knowledge, they have not emailed or called, but of course, I cannot be sure.

I subsequently ended up talking to her directly a couple of times after this, since she has tried to be my friend on occasions before this, and still now. She has been seemingly very upfront and sympathetic, but again, I continue to be suspicious. She told me she would be stupid to do anything like that….she doesn’t get “into” married men or that kind of situation, since she has a child who would pay for it dearly so she must watch her actions for her, if nothing else. Everything she says makes her SOUND so legit, as does he, but again..my gut burns with suspicion.

Now, I may be naïve (I am sure it sounds as such), but I honestly do not think anything has happened, but I worry so much about his emotional attachment to her, or what kinds of things he has thought about—what MIGHT happen, what he/she/they WANT to happen. He continues to deny he has any feelings for her when asked, but now that I have brought it up like 7 or so times in the past 3-4 weeks, he just gets so defensive about it..saying how many times do I have to keep telling you, I have no feelings for her..i don’t have them for anyone, except the kids. He even said, “I am not even attracted to her” without my asking.

So that is my story (there is more I could relay but I will leave it there), so I was hoping for gut reaction as to what you think hearing my (biased) story. I am just such a paranoid person by nature, it is hard to tease it all apart, and I hate to have me be hurting our situation more with unfair accusation.

Also, I know plan A is to cut off all contact, but unfortunately I have not done that. First, I have no definitive proof that anything is going on, or would/will—as painful as it might be, I almost WANT disclosure, since the unknown is killing me. Second, it is very hard to end these activities when my son and this woman’s child are such good friends (and they are), and I have met with resistance when I have suggested to my spouse that I be the one to take him…my fear is that it is so he can spend time with her, but my other thought is I might be being paranoid since he loves and participates in this sport himself, and is a regular up there.

So, I know from other people that your gut should be your guide..if you are suspicious, there is a reason for sure—has this always been the case on this forum?? Does anyone have a suggestion for how I can get full disclosure, esp if it is “only” an emotional affair? Maybe even one-sided? Also, how can we ever possibly get on the road to recovery (not sure he wants that anyway) without the honesty about this situation?

TIA for any and all help ..i will brace myself for your brutal honesty (LOL)

sss - welcome and continue reading.

First, do NOT be ashamed of snooping. Yes, it feels dirty but it's a necessary aspect of dealing with potential infidelity - especially when the red flags are flying so high.

In the least, this is an EA.

Start attending all the sports functions where the OW might be in attendance. Do not allow yourself to be separated from any of your children's activities.

Plan A is not about you cutting off contact. It's about convincing your H that he should cut off contact with OW. To this end, examine the lady in the mirror and determine what negative contributions you've been bringing to the marriage. They may be small or large. But these personal attributes are the only things you can change.

Consider counseling just for you with one of the MB counselors if your H won't participate in MC. But his denial for now is not such a bad thing - MC during an affair is almost always a waste of $$. The advice you can get from an MB counselor will be extremely valuable in fighting the affair.

WAT:

thanks for the reply.

i sure know i have brought plenty of negative attributes to this marriage, and have realized many changes i need to effect. some of them are in response to him and his nature (not meeting my emotional needs etc), but your point is really important and well taken, and it reinforces some of my thoughts and advice i have gotten regarding the only things i can change are things about me.

so, that being said, in your experience, if i make changes, and this is "only" an EA, does that quite often/ever result in H cutting things off with OW?

and tho i didnt mention it, we have both just started counseling together (x1 so far) at his suggestion this time. i wonder how that plays a role? but i do hear you, as i have been worried that his half-hearted participation suggests it wont be too useful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Let me answer the opposite question: if you DON'T make positive changes - especially if you brought a LOT of negative things to the marriage - the affair is very likely to proceed.

I think you understand that I am in no way saying you are responsible for his decision to have an affair, right? Good. Thought so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regarding "only an EA": Let's say for now that it is only an EA. IMHO, the distinction between EA and PA is overblown as far as the emotional investment of the WS and potential damage to a marriage. In fact, for a guy, I think a real EA is FAR worse than a sexual ONS. Literally, a guy can shoot and run (if he's a jerk). But if he gets emotionally attached because ENs are being met other than sex, sex becomes just the icing on his cake. Of course, once it finally gets to PA, he could realize it wasn't worth it and drop her like a hot beer.

Bottom line - it's futile to try to distinguish real EAs from PAs from the standpoint of what it takes to stop them, IMHO.

But all cars and drivers are not the same.

So, what do you think about changing the routine for the sporting events attendance? This could be one of the things he needs from you - your enthusiastic participation and interest.

WAT

sorry if i didnt say it before, but earlier i did suggest i take my son to some of these events. he said ok, but was clearly not happy about it, for whatever reason (thinking..her, but like i said, at least the one sport he avidly participates in there as well, just in the adult class). when i mentioned it again, he got a little frosty, said "i know you just dont want me and XX to be together"--i said, "i would be lying if i didnt say that was part of it, but as you know from our discussions in the past, i get tired of just watching the little 2 all the time, and not participating in [our sons] activities". he was not happy, but said, "well, go ahead then, it wont hurt my feelings any"..but his body language and facial expression sure didnt match the words. he was ticked. so, guess what?? trying (as i have been) to keep the peace, be trusting and kind, i let it go, have let HIM continue to go, while i am dying inside.

and as far as me and my behavior, i have tried hard to a) not be confrontational or fight (counselor said this was best now--agree?), and to make some conversation about things i know he is interested in..thst is usually well met. HOWEVER, he is not that interested in reciprocating, and is not trying more to re-establish alone-time/recreational activities..says he is really not interested anymore--just yesterday i asked (in frustration, and unfortunately we got into it a bit) "how can we work on things if you are not even willing to try??" (he admits he doesnt know if he WANTS to try..a big problem, i know)..the counselor (like dr harley) suggested from teh first we need to do this, but he doesnt want to.

so, sorry for the rambling..but hearing this, has anyone done the weekend seminar? i was thinking about asking/begging him to do this with me, since it has said that you can come in so skeptical, but leave hopeful, no matter what your state. or do you think he would need to be more motivated for improvement, for anything to work.

thoughts?

WAT has given you good advise.

I'd also like to welcome you to MB. You are in the right place!

Begging is a no no. You are better than that! You can ask him to attend but be prepared for a no answer or even a miffed answer. Something is fishy. Your gut is usually right.

You can not change him you can only change yourself. Quite often by the positive changes you make your spouse will want to make changes. Also be aware that your spouse may be suspicious of your changes. I know mine was.

Hang in there SSS. Again, I agree with WAT. Call the Harleys. I counceled with Jenn and she was a life saver!

Let me give you a little advice from a "guy." When I was single and dating I maintained "friendships" with many women. Why? As a fall back. There is no such thing as a platonic relationship between a man and a woman. As long as the man has testosterone, he wants one thing.

20 minutes is a long time that he should have spent talking to you. Plan A is about bettering yourself by fulfilling his ENs. Don't get desperate (very unattractive) (at least don't show desperation.) SAA is a great book. Harley says you should spend at least 15 hours of private time a week with your spouse. Start doing that.

Get baby sitters. Or share with another couple, watch their kids one night and they watch yours another. You can't afford not to.

Conversations should be used as Harley explains in the ENs, NOT to dwell on what is wrong or makes him unhappy. Rather, focus on what will make him happy.

Go for it, what have you got to lose.

If you haven't already, get a copy of His Needs/Her Needs and Surviving an Affair and devour them. These are a must if you want to be able to effectively implement basic affair fighting and understand your role in setting the stage for the affair.



I think this is a mistake - to back off attending the activities. This is where the affair is taking place - if it's only an EA. You HAVE to take the opportunity to upset the routine.

Consider this - he may have explained to the OW that you do not care about your child involved in these activities and this is why you don't attend. You have to contradict whatever criticism he may have made of you to her. Otherwise, she sees heself as a rescuer of both he and your child.

Scapegoating the cuckold is fundamental in justifying an affair.

You know going in that your attendance will be a pisser for him. His reaction is similar to ANY interferance with getting his fix and it does constitute a love buster - similar to the calculated love busters that result from exposure.

Other than that, no love busters allowed. Be the model Mom and wife to the extent he'll let you. Assuming this hasn't progressed to PA, knock his socks off in the bedroom. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Turn up the heat and be naughty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> This is a woman's affair weapon of mass disruption that too seldom seems to be employed.

JMHO

WAT

wow--thanks to all of you who have so nicely taken the time to respond to me..i am reading and rereading everything.

i have to add something, for more advice--it feels over the past weeks like things are just "slipping away" (gotta reread the withdrawel part to see if this is the definition)--he is less interested in sex, even not able to "finish" sometimes, he is not willing to spend alone time with me (though the counselor made no bones about this, as we both answered her question "how much time do you spend together without the kids?" with a simulataneous "NONE"..she was shocked), nor talk --

how do you handle this, when you are trying to fill the love bank and get things back on track?? also, this will sound silly i am sure, but when a man says "i dont love you anymore"...is that always for real, or can he just be so numb or whatever that that is what he thinks? (can you tell the difference)

tia..you all are great!

I'd say it's just as often real or not as when a woman says it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT

You know this really is some great advice for a female trying to snap a H out of an EA. I know this advice may not work for a man trying to get his wife out of an affair but it really is great advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The way to a man's heart is not through his stomach but it is through SF. Women have a very powerfull weapon at their disposal if they are willing to use it. I really think it is great advice if you can execute the plan.

The sad part is that the OW may at some point may be willing to do this so don't wait too long. Sex is very important to most men so don't underestimate WAT's suggestion. If you can knock his socks off so to speak you can put a tremendous amount of doubt in his mind about the OW.

WAT is exactly RIGHT. You must somehow upset this routine. Since your H clearly enjoys being there with your son, I would make arrangements to be there YOURSELF to share this activity with him. Set up a babysitter and plan to attend WITH HIM. Don't give him an opportunity to see her alone.

I very much think your gut is right that this is an affair. I suspect it is in the early stages and that since you found the phone calls has gone further underground. He is probably contacting her another way, via a secret cell phone, calling cards, etc. But I don't think it has stopped.

I think your best bets now are to:

a) quietly SNOOP [put a voice activated recorder in his car, etc]

b) focus on ATTRACTING HIM BACK just as the guys recommended. Find out his top needs and start meeting them. Make him fall back in love with you

And most importantly, PLEASE follow WAT's advice and get counseling with the Harleys. Most marriage counselors are NOT pro-marriage and actually cause MORE HARM than good. I think it is VERY VERY ODD that your H has roped you into counseling when he claims he is not sure he even wants to save your marriage. That makes me suspect that he is using this MC as a cover to escape the marriage. Either in getting the MC to help him dump you or to be able to say that he "tried to save it by going to counseling" when he flees.

But see, your average MC will not be successful in uncovering such a plan. The Harleys WILL. Nor would the Harley's HELP him break some bad news to you if that is what he is seeking here. They would try to save the marriage, not help him end it.

p.s. don't ever feel guilty about snooping when you have good cause. No one has the right to the "privacy" to carry on an affair behind your back. You have an OBLIGATION to protect yourself and your children.

silly question, now that it has been brought up a few times. would you a) get counseling with the harleys by myself?? or b) try to get it together? or c) is there any other way to get it from them..ie, do they still have people come to them(or just the seminars--i worry he would never complete the whole course via books/cds etc, even IF i could get him to attend)

It is tough to determine whether a WS is sincere about counseling or intending to use it as a kangaroo court.

I (we) can't tell from a distance for him. We can only alert you to the common ruse practiced by WSs - who think they've each invented the ploy.

But he may be sincere.

Even IF a WS enters MC sincerely - but prematurely - the first tough question from an MC can produce irreversible defensiveness. May as well give your $$ away.

The other wild card with MCs is that half of them are below average. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You might hit pay dirt with a good local one. Might not. A good screening can help. Gotta separate out the ones who will just try to help the couple through divorce in the face of an ongoing infidelity vs the ones who realize no divorce decisions should be made until the infidelity is over.

What I'm working up to is to recommend you consider a self-only session with one of the MB counselors. The MC wildcard is eliminated and your sincereity is known. You can be helped with your specific sitch and get an assessment on whether your H is ready for counseling and what kind. I bet he's not ready. The affair is not over. The MB counselor may suggest a one-on-one with your H at the proper moment if he's agreeable. They'll help you with making that determination.

JMHO

WAT