Been discussing this the the MC and the wife.
i have some real confusion about it though.

i have always been pretty open and liberal, I hate men who smother their women out of ego and jealousy.

My question is twofold.

If for 12 years we never needed any boundaries set and i could let her go anywhere and do anything, then why now must i start monitoring everything. The way i see it my problems in my marriage came from me trusting my wife too much and letting her go out alone or even talk to old boyfriends. Now we have been thru 2 attempted infidelities she tells me I need to take control of her and not let her do anything that could tempt. i agree but i have extreme reservations about having to now do with her what i have never had to do before? i feel like she loves me less now and this proves it.


My second aspect to this question is how do you set boundaries that are reasonable but still protect your relationahip. I have always been a feminist and women should be their own people, i want my wife to have friends and to have a life, otherwise it will build resentment. But looking back on our problems they all started with very innocent contaqct with old boyfriends or with innocent emails to another man. Am I really supposed to now not let her ever have any male friends or do anything even remotly inappropriate?

Why is it that i still do not need these boundaires set even after the horrible things she has done to our marriage and family? Why does she now after 12 years and 2 kids need these unreasonable almost Islamic style marital boundaires.

It makes me very nervous as i know you cannot watch or stop someone forever if they want to cheat or lie. if she loved me then and she says she loves me now why is it now required for us to have peace and a happy family?

you say "The way i see it my problems in my marriage came from me trusting my wife too much and letting her go out alone or even talk to old boyfriends."

Does that not seem like maybe those were boundries you should have set- ie: no going out alone and no contact with old boy friends?

"Am I really supposed to now not let her ever have any male friends or do anything even remotly inappropriate?"

Exactly.

Dr Harley says it in his books- have you read the books?

Why don't you need the boundries? Maybe because you don't want to meet boundries yourself? Just a thought- not an accusation.

I'm not sure how you can think these are Islamic style boundries- they are mutal boundries.

Are you doing your best to meet her emotional needs?

Have you read His Needs Her Needs and Surviving an Affair?

Once you realize that boundaries are set out of mutual respect for the marriage - and not out of tyranny and control - it makes a lot more sense and is a lot less scarey.
Mulan

i dunno about that guys, we were together with no heavy boundaries for 12 years. i have never had any problem with my own boundaries, i have never done anything to disrespect my relationship with my wife.

i think its unreasonable for her to not have any male freinds? Thats islamic to me, i am a progressive western male, women are to be trusted not controlled.

i was able to trust her for 12 years, i don't really understand why now this is necessary.

i mean imagine if i said to her, i can't control myself you need ot make sure i am never in a tempted position? that doesn't sound too positive to me.

I am just not sure how to set reasonable boundaries without making things worse. Itsh ard for me not to take this new need as showing some sort of negative imapct on her feelings for me, else why would we suddenly have a problem not controlling herself?

I would also add that during the 2 attempted affairs i ****** moaned and cried for her to stop and i set pretty clear boundaries and she simply ignored them

When a person enters a marriage, they should commit to acting in a manner that supports, not undermines, that marriage. If not, don't get married. That is not tyranny, that is called MAKING THE MARRIAGE WORK.

An adult should be SELF GOVERNING and should set their OWN boundaries in order to make their marriage work. In order for the marriage to work they must show respect for their partner and for the marriage - otherwise it won't work.

And part of your own boundaries, vercing, is committing to a person who RESPECTS the boundaries of marriage.

Marriage is a VOLUNTARY committment. A person does not have to get married. But if you are going to get married - and WANT IT TO WORK - then it would only make sense to DO THE THINGS THAT WILL MAKE IT WORK. If not, then don't get married. It's real simple.

they are not mutual boundaries either, she admits that even now after all she has done to me she trusts me completely and she is right to trust me as i would never disrespect my marriage, family or wife. Thats love. i am just wondering why I am not getting that sort of thing back?

if she loved me enough to be like me for 12 years, then she must love me less or soemthing

Its unreasonable for her to do things that will protect her marriage from affairs? huh? I haven't a CLUE what that has to do with "being controlled" or being "islamic." No one is holding a gun to her head, marriage is a completely VOLUNTARY institution. She can see what having male friends has done to her marriage. If having male friends harms the marriage, then why would she continue doing this?

I fear you are more concerned with appearing to be a cute little feminist than in protecting your marriage. That's cute and all, but it is disasterous to your marriage to negate common sense boundaries that safeguard your marriage.

And I will point out again, that marriage is COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY. She is not being held there at the point of a gun. But if she wants the marriage to LAST, she needs to show some respect for her spouse and stop doing things that are destructive to it. SHE CANNOT EVADE THE CONSEQUENCES OF MARRIAGE BUSTING BEHAVIORS, THOUGH. You can protest them all you want, but reality is reality. If you don't commit to safeguards in your marriage, then you won't have one for long!

If you want to forgo any rational boundaries that any commited person lives by, then you must be willing to accept that that LACK will probably destroy your marriage. That reality CANNOT BE ERASED as you have seen with your own eyes. By protesting boundaries, you are really protesting REALITY. And reality cannot be changed.

But what if she is untrustworthy? Wouldn't it be silly to trust an untrustworthy person? Trust has to be EARNED, it is not a special entitlement for women. If your wife is behaving in untrustworthy ways, you would be insane to trust her.

have you read the books?

ANYONE can have an affair.

I wonder how many people on here said they would never have an affair and did? I bet the number is high- I am married to one of those that said never and did.

V-

This is simple.


Should be amended to:

I've always been of the same frame of mind as you. I felt my wife should be trusted to do the right thing, just as I should be trusted.

Then she started behaving in ways that I KNEW were hurting our marriage. Spending long hours online chatting/gaming with specific guys. Making that time more important than our marriage, our family. She ACTUALLY started to have EA's with two guys before all of our major issue happened...but I talked with her and got her to reduce her online gaming and such.

My trust resumed.

She began an online affair with a guy, and it was because of this "trust" that I held off on checking to see what was going on.

This led to an affair where she was all set to leave me for someone she'd never met face to face.

After that, she knew she'd shattered my trust in her. SHE WASN'T TRUSTWORTHY anymore.

Trust is NOT just freely given. You don't hand your wallet and house/car keys to any stranger you meet on the street, do you?

Nope. You didn't just automatically give them to your wife on the very first day you met did you? I'd bet not. Actually, she EARNED that trust over time as you grew closer together. She DEMONSTRATED that trust to you in small ways while your relationship grew.

Then she violated that trust, at least a couple of times. SHE admits to you that she's not trustworthy and needs your help in building/enforcing boundaries.

She has to RE-EARN that trust back. By again demonstrating her trustworthiness over time. And SHE knows this, which puts you in a far better place than you were.

Quit worrying about feminism/women's lib...this is NOT sexist. If the situation were reversed, she should absolutely be doing the same thing to you.

Quit worrying about 'smothering her'...start worrying about fixing you marriage. She's actually giving you good guidance on what to do here...why on Earth would you NOT want to do what you need to do to help your wife rebuild your relationship?

V6,

Boundaries are nothing more than following your marriage vows. They are your vows explained in a longer format, more explicit I guess.

You say you feel they are Islamic style/type and you enver felt you had to enforce them before. Well wake up and smell the coffee dude. This is attempt #2 to destroy your marriage. Also maybe she needs to feel you want and need her and value her, so why aren't you trying to protect her?

Like a child, she may need clear boundaries and enforced discipline when they are violated. You must however be prepared to enforce the boundaries and follow through with what ever it is you are saying you are going to do if she violates your boundaries. If yousay she must leave if she violates NC then you have to throw her out if she violates NC.

You can't waffle. You are being way to PC to keep your marriage together. You must be the man you are supposed to be, the leader of the family, the head of the household! This doesn't mean you have to be an ogre, but you have to establish rules of the house, boundaries of the marriage. Like "No running in the house, No drugs in the house, etc..." For the marriage, NO male friends, no meeting men alone, no discussing our marriage or problems with men, etc...

Be a real man and take charge of your life and your marriage. You sound like the consumate "MetroSexual American Male!" WOW!

Eagle is exactly right. Women are just as obligated to abide by their vows as are men. We are big girls who are quite capable of keeping our vows and showing respect for our marriages.....and for our husbands. We are not entitled to some special treatment that allows us conduct ourselves like alley cats in heat, showing utter disrespect for our vows. Hold us accountable, vercing! We are big girls and can take it!

vercing, here is an excellent article by Dr. Harley about what it will take to recover your marriage from an affair. These principles will also affair proof your marriage. It might help if you print this and show it your wife. Ask her to read it and ask her what things she is willing to do to protect your marriage and aide the recovery.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Just for clarification, is it your wife who is openly asking you to set boundaries for her now (to help her evade temptation) or are you getting this idea from things you have read?

If she's asked you to set those boundaries herself, I don't see why that would be truly controlling on your part because it's at her request. Think of it as the equivalent of an alcoholic asking you to help please keep booze out of the house and not let them go to bars.

If this is the case, and it's at HER request, it sounds like she is looking for you to be the leader or the dominant one in the relationship. Perhaps she NEEDS you to be strong and welcomes what you dub "control" because she feels it helps compensate for her weaknesses in some way.

If you are uncomfortable with this, understandable if you have a passive or easygoing personality, then some sort of balance needs to be found where you can both function with reasonable happiness.

You're right, monitoring everything someone else does is exhausting and unrewarding work. The fact she ignored boundaries you set before lead me to suspect that she may have already lost respect for you because she didn't see you as a strong male in those darkest moments. She probably hoped to see some demonstration of your "Alpha male" tendencies when she had the affairs (i.e., jealously defending your turf) but when you resorted, as you said, to "moaning and crying" instead, then she lost respect and ignored your attempt to set boundaries at that time because she knew you would cave in - and she was right.

There's a quote I heard somewhere once, "A strong woman needs a stronger man." I don't share an opinion on this one way or the other, but I know SOME women expect and feel a need for a man to be firm or what might be dubbed controlling by others. It's probably a self-esteem issue.

This is just a theory. I don't see any harm in asking her outright if she lost respect for you when you didn't stand up to her before. As for a solution, I think that can only come with more MC. Perhaps a counselor can help you come up with some solutions that will help you meet halfway.

Good luck,

~Silverwraith

It's not controlling. It's protective. Your marriage has a vulnerability. YOUR MARRIAGE (the two become one). It's not just her vulnerability either. Statistically, the BS is more likely to have the next affair anyway (setting aside serial cheaters that make no effort to curb there ways).

I'll use an example Mrs. W and I have discussed.

Suppose you are alone walking through the airport and YOU run into an old girlfriend from high school. Your wife trust you and you don't think your vulnerable. You've got time to linger, do you????. NO. A brief catch up chat. No exchanging of numbers or business cards. No coffee. Politely excuse yourself and call your spouse and report exactly what transpired. It's a risky situation. Nip it in the bud before it even becomes a temptation. Your wife must do the exact same thing.

Now your wife must recognize the risk in herself. In the same situation she must be acutely aware of her vulnerabilities and be cognizant of them AS the conversation occurs. She should take the accidental unavoidable situation as a learning experience an attempt to see what she really wants out of it. Is it she wants the guy to want her. Is is conversation. She could take the opportunity to learn about herself and discuss it with you. When she calls you about it, you both discuss what went on in her head.

Also, when she calls you instead of being nervous and upset, you attempt to fill the emotional needs that she seeks from such encounters. "Honey, you are soooo beautiful, I am so glad you got away from him as he was likely as smitten as I am with you". or "oh, you were wearing that gorgeous outfit that makes you look so nice...I am such a lucky guy, thanks for calling me. I value us just as much as you do." Or just meet her need for conversation and discuss it in detail with her.

The boundaries are reciprocal. No private relations with men or women. No contact with old flames by either of you. Neither of you ever take on the problems of the opposite sex (consoling). Avoid reunions and the like.

Be happy.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I was also a very trusting an trusted my wife to have as much freedom as she wanted even talking to old boyfriends from High School, er. However, I have come to learn many women have a emotional need for a little jealously appropriately, genuinely, gingerly and timely applied. It says you notice them and are acutely aware of what your other half, the most important part of your life, are doing. You are protecting them because they are valuable to you. You may have every confidence in them...it's the other guy you are worried about cause your wife is soooo very desirable.

vercing,

You must set certain boundries to protect yourself and your marriage. It is not your job to police your wife. She is asking you what your boundries are because she has obviously crossed them. Perhaps, you've never made them clear before. What are you willing to tolerate and still keep a healthy marriage?

I had to set a (no old boyfriends) boundry very early my past marriage. I had foolishly assumed that it was a given that one would not attempt to contact old boyfriends, look them up in the new phone book every year, ask if a lunch date was ok from time to time, accept an occassional phone call, etc.

I had to make it clear that I would not tolerate this type of behavior. She was still free to do as she wished but the consequence was that the marriage would end. I was not about to police her.

With a clear boundry established this destructive behavior stopped. Her curiosity never waned but, it never led to contact.

yes she is asking me to set these boundaries, but we have been together for 12 years. These boundarioes were never necessary before, WHY?

Why am i as steadfastly connected to these marital boundaries still but she needs help?

Sounds to me like she is saying i want to stay with you for the kids even thought i can no longer control myself for wanting other people. Kinda of a slow way of telling me she doesn't love me.

If i never needed strict boundaries for 12 years why would i need them now?

She has always kept in touch with old male friends and its never been a problem for 12 years.
Now i also need to control what female friends she has as they were as big a problem as the male friends, assisting her in her affair attempts, encouraging her and telling her to leave me to please herself?

So you see how this quickly becomes islamic in scope.
in 1 year we went from total trust to me having to forbid all males freinds and have personal veto power over female frinds to make sure we don't have anymore vipers striking at the heart of my family? her femals friends were more damaging than the guys who wanted an affair with her, her girlfriends provided guidance, philospohy and opportunity.
They are all divorced by the way of course and have wrecked families or are well on the way to having that.

I see the wisdom and the danger in both sides of the argument here, yes control is necessary now, but isn;t then eed for that control a signal this is all over but the cryin anyways?

I want the person back who i loved, the one i knew loved me so much no man could step between us.

many of you make excelelent points about marital responsibilities, but she kept to those before without me ever having to set islamic boundaries, so what happened?

-Just for clarification, is it your wife who is openly asking you to set boundaries for her now (to help her evade temptation) or are you getting this idea from things you have read? -

Yes she has said, I want you to not let me be in a position to be tempted becasues i have made some very bad bad choices the last year


But you cannot stop someone from being dishonest can you?

Are you people telling me that ALL marriagers must be conducted like this to keep them together?
I had 12 years where it worked, i see other couples who trust each other and do keep a loving marriage?

i guess thats what confuses me, what does it mean now that this has to be done? How long can i keep control before something does it again? It just seems an impossible task.

We already had a semi lockdown in progress after the first affair attempt, i tried not to to be over bearing and heavy so i let her conduct an email conversation with the son of a musician she really liked and discuss music etc. This seemed entirely reasonable to me, but i ended up nearly losing my marriage and family over it.
within 2 months she was lyin g all over the place and trying to setup a face to face meeting.

yes its clear to me she can no longer be trusted, but trust was one of the defining elements of our relationship.

How do i give up that and not give her up at the same time?

The reason you need them now is: As time passes things change, people change, wants, needs, and desires change. Add to that the current loss of values and morals on TV, radio, in movies, etc... You have to go with the changes and change things in yourself as well. "You snooze you lose!"

What are you an Islamophobe? Is there no middle ground? It would appear your pendelum swings to the extremes.

Do you want to stay married to your wife? If so, wake up! If not, continue to whine about having to work for your marriage and go see an attorney!

If you truly want your wife back then get to work MR. Quit whinning and get busy. Read everything on this site, buy the books and study them. Maybe then you will understand why you now have to put some effort into your marriage.

She has tasted the heady liquer of being wanted, needed, and pursued. Someone has shown an interest, has started doing your work for you and is about to replace you.

WAKE UP! YOU ARE LATE FOR WORK!!!!!