My husband and I have been married almost 6 years. We dated (but didn't live together) for 5 years. We're mid 30's and don't have children yet.

Two years ago, my H moved out and in with his parents after a series of heated arguments. We were competing with one another in our home, with our careers and with our educations. I was overbearing and criticized my H to the point that he was deeply hurt. He would avoid me and not talk after I would apologize or try to get us involved in counseling. Around that same time (2 years ago), he began to engage in lengthy conversations with OW (I think a co-worker). She's married and is a few years older than H, but he has developed a habit of calling her first thing in the morning, at 5PM, and sometimes they speak in the evenings. I have access to his phone records and he has consistently talked with her by phone several times a week for the past 3 years.

My H and I spend each weekend together (he spends the night from Friday until Sunday). We've been in Christian counseling for 2 months. The sessions are going fairly well. H is willing to work through our issues but he has not moved back home. We are involved in a local church and a small group but H is inconsistent in attending. I finally confronted him about the phone calls to 2OW (there are a few others but none as frequent as the older woman). He told me that he's not the type to have a PA and he reminded me of how long we dated before any level of physical intimacy emerged. He also said that I "don't understand that his relationship with his friends is not about 'that'", but he went through a difficult time over the past 2 years of our separation and he needed his friends to help him through it. He says that if he tells me there's nothing to the relationships with these OW, then I need to believe him.

A married man should not be engaging in lengthy phone conversations with members of the opposite sex without their spouse's knowledge and consent. I also told him that although he thinks he is keeping the relationship(s) above board, he can't underestimate the desires of the other person who may be developing feelings for my H.

We addressed this in counseling, but H diverted the conversation to how I don't understand or accept him, that our family values are different and that anytime he is happy I take it away from him. He also shot arrows at my methods for getting my information (I went through his phone records recently and went through his phone 2 years ago). My H (while he was defending himself) reminded me of when I would frequently talk on the phone with my male co-workers (about 6 years ago before we were married) and that he expressed disappointment in this to me but that I didn't make an immediate change.


How do I keep from ruining the progress we're making in counseling? I want to set boundaries but he's already out of the house and living with his parents so I don't have much time with him anyway. Without kids, I don't have the leverage that so many use when conflicts arise. I want to rebuild our LB but it's hard when we still have unresolved conflicts in the air. I also don't want to be a doormat and allow him to come and go in and out of our home as he chooses, and still maintain emotional relationships with other women while not meeting my ENs.

I'm depressed to the point of needing wine or a sedative. I've read posts here for awhile now and know that when I read this from an outsider's perspective it will be crystal clear....

What do you think?

.....

I'm not sure how you'd go about reconciling a marriage with a seperation of two years.

My wife and I discussed and began working towards seperating after her affair. When she was getting ready to sign a one year lease for an apartment, the time thing really sank in.

I let her know that if she was planning on being apart for a year, that I was going to go ahead and file for a divorce. That living apart, living as though we weren't married for two years was a deal buster for me...that there was no difference between that and divorce, and that if we were going to agree to go that far, we should go ahead and go all the way and end the marriage...and our friendship.

I'm not knocking you...but it's hard for me to imagine a WS that would be willing to come back into the marriage after two years of free reigns doing whatever they wanted, but still also reaping the benifits of remaining married. That's kind of the ultimate cake-eater in my mind.

Hopefully you'll get some better advice from some of the others here...I'd think that if you feel you've done a good enough plan A, it's time to go to a spectacularly dark plan B.

Owl,
Thanks for your candor. You're right. My H has been a cake eater for quite awhile now. Today, I'm at wits end. I'm glad to hear you're in recovery. Although I tend to use glipses like that as evidence that things can improve, I definitely have to set a deadline for us before we go on another year. I'm going to revisit my Plan A and prepare my Plan B.

I think it's time to change statagies.

I suspect the your H is extremly good at conflict avoidence. The sitch as it stands right now is good for him. He gets to play respectable married man on the weekend. If he meets any resistance he can "bail" and go back to mommy and daddy. No consequesnces means no real effort to work problems through.

Do you want him back with you as is? Or are there changes that you would like to see out of him? If so what are they?

What are your boundries? What can and can not you tolerate about his current actions / choices? You need to decide this and we have to communicate these to him clearly.

Please feel free not to answer this one: Is there SF on the weekends or is he just "not interested"?

Have you taken the EN questionare's on the site? If he woun't fill it out then do it for him and guess the best you can. The result may surprise you!

We both know that this seperation isn't working. All it is doing is slowly aclamating both of you to living without each other. Two years is dragging this out far to long.

What we need to do is "reengage" him. What we need to do is bring him back to where you can really work through the problems. What brought you together to start with? I would think about that and try to capture some of that again.

Sorry for all the questions. I'm trying to get a feeling for the "dynamic" of your relationship.

Stay Strong!

BTW: I tend to like White Merlow!

Hey Walking,
Were you in my backyard last weekend? I thought I heard someone rustling in the leaves but maybe not!! No, anyway, you're dead on. The weekends are chock full of SF because I really miss him during the week and perhaps he misses me too. Nonetheless, the habits of the past 24 months haven't worked well: nagging, avoidance, crying, hanging out with single friends, over indulgence in Church work, over indulgence in college work, traveling, etc. Although we're in counseling the MC basically said today that we're at a stalemate unless something radically changes. I know I have to change myself and my responses to my H.

Let's see... your other questions...
We took the EN quest but I've been waiting for him to go over the results with me. He felt the ??s were too long and he got tired of responding (by phone). I was surprised at his needs and even more by mine. I need lots of attention so his avoidance only makes me angry, suspicious and discouraged. He gets his traits honest. His mom, dad and siblings are all spokesmodels for the conflict avoidance institute.

We like to travel so I've tried to plan fun trips for us. We met outside a night club (not quite as bad -- huh?!) so I've tried to find places where we can dance and enjoy live music. I try to make his time with me times where I'm not listing all the things he needs to do or recanting our problems. I've tried to rebuild our LBs one penny at a time but I'm exhausted trying to do the heavy lifting nearly on my own!

Time for some Chianti! Thanks for your insight at the use of "we" -- it really brightened my spirits.

Nordstrom,

Please do revisit plan A first. I would like to take a different tack with this thread if you don't mind. Let's say for sake of disussion that the following things are true.

1. He has not had an A even an EA (humor me here please).

2. That everything you have written is correct with regard to what he has said.

So with these two things in mind permit me to revisit your first post. I think there are some very very important pieces of information in it, that you are not seeing fully.

You said
Let's examine this part of what you said and please note the part I put in bold. It will become clearer later in this post why I bolded this portion of what you said. But, let's begin with the idea of what you think a spouse is.

Is a spouse a competitor? Is a friend? Is a spouse a lover? Is a spouse someone that can be trusted even with ones deepest emotions? Is a spouse to quote Dr. Phil , that provides a soft place to land?

You see in my mind if the answer to the first question is yes, then it is impossible for this spouse to answer yes on ANY other of the questions and yet it is these things that make marriage unique. I would like your thoughts on this.

But, let's consider that if you are a competitor you cannot be a friend and someone that can be trusted with ones dearest thoughts and weaknesses.




You knew then and now that your approach to him hurt him why did you not stop? Have you stopped now? I think the answer in his mind is NO. I will illustrate below. One thing to consider is that an apology does not mean much if the action is repeated and why would "us" need to be in counseling if you were the one perpetrating the behavior?


Do you have any clues why he might be doing this? I do.



I can imagine he has. Why? There was/is no reason to stop. Now here is where I want you to suspend belief and consider this NOT an EA. What do you think he gets out of those calls? She is "just a friend" remember. What is she providing him?

Excellent, what does the counselor have you two working on? Please note that most recoveries take far longer than two months, and yes we could be talking about an EA, but we could also simply discussing an estrangement between you two. The point is that no matter what the path to take is the same and the time it takes is not measured in a few months. So you need to give this plenty of time and patience OK?



Makes sense to me. Here is why. From what you have said you have not yet figured out all you need to figure out. I am sure you are making progress but I will illustrate to you where I believe you need to focus.


He associates an affair only with physical actions. As you are aware and probably your counselor as well, this is not true. Perhaps your counselor needs to be made aware of his view of affairs.


Nordstrom, YOU have been given a huge clue here for your recovery. He NEEDS friends. Are you his friend? Are you someone he can trust with his feelings, soul, his mistakes, his failures? Will he feel safe in talking to you about his thoughts? I fear the answer is no, and the reason resides in the first bold quote of yours. You two are competitors. That needs to really and truely end. You cannot control him, but you can control yourself and you need to stop the competing, the comparing, and the criticizing.


I think you need to understand HE believes this. You need to understand that he may be wrong. You need to understand that it is unlikely that at this point he could actually give this up because he is "addicted". There are ways to address this but simply pointing it out to him will sound like you calling him a liar and that you are continuing to simply criticize him, thus his defenses are coming up. You need to get under the radar screen so to speak.


Yes, Mother! Do you understand how this sounds to him? Do you understand you are lecturing him? Do you understand that he will NOT like being "educated" by you. It is not that your points are wrong, it is that you are approaching this the wrong way. You are offering nothing to replace what he clearly values except more of what made him run to begin with.



Got any clues why he might think this? You should definitely have some clues about where the problem is. He does NOT view you as a friend or someone he can trust does he?


Normal, response to being caught out about something he is NOT proud of. He knows this is threatening to you and he is trying to keep you from finding out more.


It appears the man is observant and has a good memory doesn't he? It also appears that you two never resolved these issues did you? If you think you did, what did you do to resolve this lack of response to his request those years ago?


You don't have unresolved conflicts in the air. He is addressing them right now. You just don't like his approach much because it is killing the marriage. The issue is NOT that he is a conflict avoider in the truest sense of this phrase. He avoided the conflict by simply taking actions that removed him from the conflict. He does not want to fight, he did not want to fight, and he is not going to change until he KNOWS you have laid down your weapons and stop fighting with him. That is my guess.



Well, until things change...nothing changes. Why don't you change the playing field by changing your approach to this? I have a few ideas and there are many on this site when you are ready.


Well I hope that what I have pointed out is clear if not "crystal clear". But, being depressed about this is NOT going to work either. It is time you got to serious work.


I think this is a soluable problem. I think your marriage can be rebuilt. I think it is going to require a paradigm shift on your part so that your perspective is different. I think the information here along with your counseling WILL turn the tide if you have the patience, the honesty, and the guts to do it. It will be your call, because you are here you get ALL of the advice, good, bad, or indifferent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So the first thing I would strongly recommend is that you read the sections on love busters. It sounds as if you have already read them once, but if so, pay particular attention to the most deadly of all LB's the "Disrespectful Judgement". You have made many of them in this post. You are assuming you KNOW what he is thinking, what he is feeling, and what is wrong with this relationship. That LB will cause you to act on false information and that is always a bad thing.

Next, I would really like you to read Harley's four rules for a good marriage. Then read this thread and then reread those rules again and answer honestly how you have done on making those rules LIVE in your marriage.

I don't know alot Nordstrom but I do know this much. If you start to change your approach, IT WILL affect your H. It will start to change his perspective and as that happens along with your counseling he will feel safer and he will change. You can provide what that woman is providing him now...friendship and safety.

There is so much more to say, but let's start here and see where things go. Other posters will be along and you will get to see things from many points of view. Just hang in there, do the reading I asked and start to think about what I have said.

I hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
Thank you so much for taking the time to quote me and offer a clear perspective. Listening to myself, I realized that I've fallen into a rut of bad habits. I read LBs again and re-read the DJs quest. as if my H were answering about me. I got a failing grade. Then I re-read my so-called Plan A and ripped it up. Even that sounded like a mother hen making DJs and demands for H to come back home. Then my H called. I kept a pad and paper handy and wrote down (without speaking) what my 1st responses would be to him w/out your post in mind. They were chock full of DJs and other LBs. My pad read: "What I want to say" and "What I'll say instead". I was immediately surprised at how much better the conversation went! Sounds elementary but as you said, if I start to change my approach, it will affect my H. The good news is H is out of town w/ parents so I can work on myself during this time. Painful but necessary.

In MC we're (actually I'm) working on identifying myself through Christ rather than my H. I'm working on building empathy and respecting H's motives. We're working on incorporating recreation, more worship and Christian couples in our lives. I went to MC by myself this week and may go by myself next week. I'm still having a tough time worrying about H's EA and possible text msgs and calls to females.

JL, the "four rules" you mention. Are those the "Four Rules for Negotiation"? I couldn't find the exact ones you mentioned.

Thxs again.

nordstrom

Curses!!! Busted!!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Did you look at JL's excellent post? She went right to the heart of what I was kind of suspecting.



Time to change them then:

Do you speak much during the week? I was thinking that it would be a good idea to try and engage him during the week. Just something simple really, enjoying a nice coffee / beverage together. Doesn't need to take a large chunck of time out of the night. An hour or even less would be fine, just keep up contact during the week. I would avoid R talk at first, (unless he brings it up first of course! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)just to keep this light and pleasant and leave him with a good feeling when you depart for the evening.

In other words, it's really a Plan A. The whole point of my suggestion is to make it "safe" for him to be open with you!



That's another important part of plan A. You can not change his perceptions / responses. You can only do that to / for yourself. The key to this is consistancy. To apply your new approach and do it consistantly. H will notice. It will take time but he WILL notice. If we can pull this off it will greatly increase our chances of successfully reengaging H.


To be perfectly honest my affair radar isn't really going off on your H. I just get the impression of someone pulling / holding back.



Unfortunatley this is the position that you are stuck in right now. I can tell you right now that if you do CHOSE to do nothing... nothing in this sitch is going to change. It could drag on for years. I seriously doubt that H is going to expaned any serious effort at this stage (I suspect that he is in wait and see mode).

Stay Strong!

I believe JL was refering to this:
Four rules for a successful marriage

I also recommend reading about LB's.
Harleys book "Love busters, habits that destroy romantic love" is an excellant book, that helped our marriage a great deal. Between that, and HNHN, we have come a long, long way.

SS

SS,
Thxs for the resource. I have to tell you, and Walking, and JL that I'm an only child -- not making excuses for myself but i've had a hard time sharing my world w/ H who's got 7 siblings. I've said all that to say that I've got to get myself on a daily regimen to break out of the "me" syndrome and focus on his ENs. Otherwise, why even get married... I'm going to get in IC I guess (yep, more "me" focus)...

Nordstrom,

You mentioned that you are an only child. It is perhaps a "reason" which is not the same as an "excuse". Just remember that there is a difference. Excuses are used to hide something or avoid responsibility, reasons go hand in hand with taking responsibility and then deciding to address the offending action.

I like your idea of writing what you would have said vs. what you did say. Keep it up. More importantly as you do these things, as you read here and talk here, alot of this will become clearer to you. There really are patterns to these things and that to me is one of the most remarkable things about this relationship stuff.

I do think as you become more aware, and truely most people make some if not all of the mistakes you have to one degree or another, you will find YOU will be happier. Your H will notice the change in YOU. Not just your words, but in your calmness, your happiness. You see as you take control of YOU, and that is what you are doing, you will find you have less need to control him because you will become more confident in your abilitites.

It is a strange and very nonlinear thing, but I think in the long run YOU will be the biggest winner, although it may seem you are catering to your H.

We will address him as time goes on, but first you have to become more sensitive to LB's and how to communicate without using them. Some of his behavior is very typical of us guys you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So hang in there, keep reading, post and ask lots of questions, and I think these things coupled with the counseling will lead to some big changes.

God Bless,

JL

Nordstrom,

I was rereading this and thinking about your situation. Several things come to mind. One is I would really like to hear your answers to some of my questions. The second thing that came to my mind is something you might want to consider.

You have mentioned that your H is competive with you, do you know why? Are you sure he is competing with you or trying to defend himself from you? I am NOT attacking you. Often very competitive people are NOT very secure in their own skins. If you are managing to hurt him, you are winning, and thus really feeding his insecurity, thus he is backing off big time.

Do you respect your H? If so why and in what ways? Does he know you respect him for certain things? Does he know that you understand that he is vulnerable to you (you can and have hurt him as no one can). I am also sure he has hurt you. Have you ever shown your vulnerability to him?

Have you ever had a talk where he shared his fears, his pain, his frustration at things? If you have, did you listen carefully, or did you offer solutions and action plans?

My point? As you go through this see if you can develop some empathy for him. I don't mean feel sorry for him. I mean understanding of how he felt during some of this. The idea is simple. If you are to be his friend AND his lover, he must come to understand that his well being is IMPORTANT to you and indeed it is.

Have you ever heard of the saying Well actually it works for spouses of all genders. If you can get him to understand that his happiness is important to you, if you can get him to understand that YOU want to be the friend he wakes up at 5 AM to talk to, if you can get him to understand that YOU need him to talk to about YOUR fears, feelings, happiness, love, then you will find your marriage being rebuilt.

Now just for a moment, look at Harley's rules, what I have said, and put them in the context of what you are learning from your counselor with regard to your religion. Do you see any conflicts? I would be surprised if you did.

Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,
Thanks for holding me accountable. For your question:

I've had to re-think my def of spouse/H. My parents had a bad divorce so I've postured as tough in M and showed that I can make it w/out H should he not want to be w/ me. H said on one occasion "I know you really don't need me but i want to be a part of..." That broke my heart and since then I've tried to include him but JDMaking hasn't been followed on my part, now it's not being followed on H's part. A spouse is not the first quest, H is each of the latter questions. I wish I had that. I ask myself, "competing for what?" we're both on the same team, he's not my enemy. I pray I won't be his.



I thought i had stopped w/ my approach. After reviewing LBusters and DJ, reading posts here and writing out "What I want to say" vs. "What I'll say instead", I see now that even in simple questions about his day, his plans, etc. I often phrase them in a way that sounds disrespectful and condescending. As of yesterday, I've become more aware of my DJ and I'm working to stop. This will become a daily/hourly task for me since (because of my past behavior) most anything I ask/say to H is viewed thru H's filter/bias. That's why when I hear him speak to someone else (grocery store clerk, family member, friends, postman, etc.) and then speak to me, his tone is entirely different.



Yes! He's given me a flashing sign. What OW/she and other friends are providing is freedom to be who he is, without qualifying or validating his feelings; freedom to offer suggestions to their problems without discounting his opinion, the safety of knowing his deepest thoughts won't be turned on him in heated arguments -- the love and respect anyone deserves, especially a spouse.

Granted, it might not be about sex. That's being met in H's broken marriage perhaps. H needs the things mentioned above (as we all do) and is trying to keep sane by reaching out for support and lending an ear.


Currently, I'm working on my identity in Christ; how not to make DJs, not to criticize -- he told me flat out in MC that my criticism hurts and that I need to stop doing it -- we're also working on how to trust each others' motives and to rebuild LBank by going back to places/times when we clung to each other and dreamed of our future life.

JL. This is sooo hard to write. My heart is convicted and I know I've behaved badly in this M. Although, when I told MC about how I feel responsible for the problems in our M and my H's anger and hurt, the MC said "you aren't that powerful" and told me to stop taking responsibility for H's responses. But based on the string of messages and most every behavior over the past several years, my actions HAVE directly contributed to the situation I'm in today. I think the thought of this (at least before yesterday) somewhat made me feel empowered to try to force or demand changes -- which only led to more push back from my H.

So we haven't done much but grow further apart over the past 2 yrs. H's grown closer to OW/friends, I've gotten complacent in house alone w/ freedom and my old ways. The day that shocked me into reality was when I played his vmail and heard a female voice calling to see how he was doing. She had also sent him an e-mail thanking him for a "chit chat/ male bashing session" and she suggested they set up a happy hour to play matchmaker for two people they knew. I got scared and called a couple in our small group at church. They suggested we go to MC. I called the next week.

I want him to have strong reasons to want to come home. I want him to know it was his decision and that he wasn't pressured to come home. I want him to feel like an equal participant and leader in our home. I've got lots of work to do on myself. But unfortunately, in the meantime, my mind will continue to invent things and make assumptions based on false information unless I pull myself together and make some drastic changes.

I appreciate your time with me and your sound guidance. I'll dry my tears and work through the rest of the questions. Does this give you and other readers any other suggestions?

nordstrom

Also, has anyone read "Every Woman's Marriage" by Ethridge? I just picked it up and it appears to be right in line with Harley and the suggestions on this board.

Hi Nordstrom,

Thought I would respond to a few of your comments.

You responded to my first set of questions Ok, I understand where you are coming from as you are surely not the first person to come to this site with the point of view you stated.


Did you ever hear the definition of an child and an a adult?

A child NEEDS what they want, and adult wants what they need.

I mention this because your response to your parents divorce is not unusual, but it shows a lack of maturity. You do NEED your H, and you do want your H don't you? He is not essential to your survival on this planet true enough, but emotionally, and yes even physcially you NEED this man.

You view marriage as a natural extension of the evolution of life don't you? Well, if you do you NEED a husband don't you?

Are you getting my point? I think you already have because you realized when he stated what you quoted it affected you, but have you really articulated your point to your H. Have you flat out looked the man in the eye and told him you NEED him in your life to be happy? Think about this approach for a bit.



I'll go one step further. You should celebrate his successes, his achievements, his attempts even those that fail as he should yours. Here is where non-competitive really comes in. Can you be proud of HIM? Are you proud of HIM? These things you need to think about.

You then said
The personal filters is a major thing and as you realize that he has them as well as you do, you will start to be able to communicate better with him. I also think that as you change your perspective about him or any other man in your life, you will find it easier and easier to avoid love busters. You will gradually realize you don't need to defend yourself. You are a good person Nordstrom, you just have to accept that fact. Do you know how I know?

Consider this, is there anything I have said or your counselor, or anyone else here, that has really been something you have not thought of yourself? Not really. All of this is and has been in you, but surrounded by a protective shell. Now that the shell is cracking, the goodness in you is coming out. Just let your H keep seeing it and he will begin to change his tone with you.


You have it girl AND you need it don't you. You need the same things from him that he needs from you, perhaps in different ways, perhaps with different wording, but you two need these things. So do you see that this is YOUR best interests as well as your H's? I hope so.

Finally you have said
Well Nordstrom, your counselor is right in my opinion, but I would peel the onion a bit differently. You are NOT responsible for your H's decisions, his actions nor his responses to you. I have the feeling he could and should have handled things quite a bit differently than he has. If he were posting here he would be getting an earfull you can bet on that.

However, you do have enormous power over him and you need to recognize that he will respond to the things you do and say. You have the power to hurt him like almost no one else on this planet. Your criticisms will be heard, felt, and taken to heart more than anyone elses. Your praise will lift him like few others in the world. Your love can sustain him like no else can right now. You do have responsibility for the state of the marriage but not 100%. You are right to accept YOUR role. The issue in my mind is that you haven't understood until recently what YOUR role really was. It is not mother, boss, accountant, or arbitrator of his behavior. Your role is really much more pleasant. You get to love him, make love to him, allow HIM to help you and accept his love. You get to cherish him and encourage him and help him when he is down.

Does any of this sound familiar? It should, it is pretty much what you promised in your wedding vows, and frankly it is NOT easy which is why we take VOWS. Yet it is easier than the role you have taken on and far more rewarding. So again, this requires a change of perspective. You sound a bit down, but shouldn't you be up a bit?

You get to love and make love to him. You get to lay down your defenses and help someone, and be their friend. This should bring a smile to your face and joy to your heart. Do you see what I mean. What you have ahead of you is NOT a job but an OPPORTUNITY. Enjoy it Nordstrom.


Ah! look what I said in the earlier paragraph about your opportunities and then look at this paragraph. Would you like to rephrase it now? This is not work we are talking about, this is love (the verb, not the feeling), this is enjoying the weekends with him, and encouraging him to call and talk to you, this is finding out about his job, his concerns, listening to them, asking questions, learning, and validating things. This is also about letting him enjoy YOU, not the lady with the shell, but you.

You are doing very well right now, but you need to continue to work on your perspectives about HIM and YOURSELF. It is clear you have a lot of good in you and it is time you let it out.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Well, things have gone much better over the past 48 hours. Tonight will be the first time I've seen H face to face in about a week. I'm planning a nice dinner for us and maybe some dancing. H plans to go back out of town again next week to pick up his parents, so I'll spend more time reading this board, the articles and my "Every Woman's Marriage" book.

Last night, right before he and I got off the phone, I had a mini angry outburst. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I had spent some time during the conversation complementing H on how he's kind to help his bro and parents, how he was able to take the project and complete it in record time and that I was proud of him. His response was lackluster ("yeah, okay, yep. I did it.") Okay... so I decided not to comment any further or do my usual "did you happen to hear the complement?!? How about a 'thank you'?!" Instead, I waited for a few other opportunities to offer some kind words. Basically however, when we were getting off the phone (H at his parents' house, me at the home we're supposed to live in together), I was hoping he'd at least say something kind before we ended our call. He'd been out of town all week working, he was clearly tired from dealing with his siblings and parents and the drive, BUT, I needed just a bit of warmth. Maybe I should just be grateful he called. Anyway, as we were getting off the phone I made a sarcastic remark about it being "all about (him)" and got off the phone. I lay in bed alone and cried and cried.

I have this long road of rebuilding my identity in Christ, true, but I also have to live in the world of interacting with someone who is less than enthused to be around me. I pray this is a temporary world. I have made it one of my goals each day to painstakingly work through the part of Plan A that I really have control over -- myself and my interactions/responses with my H. I keep painfully and shamefully re-reading JL's responses to my posts. I try to dry my tears and build myself up enough to be the confident person I used to be. My H wasn't attracted to a weepy, down-trodden, worrisome woman -- the person he first met 14 years ago possessed grace, an air of enthusiastic expectancy, smiles, and probably most important, admiration, kindness and respect for him.

Granted, I don't admire H's selfish ways which leads me to say unkind things and act in a disrespectful manner.

A post-it note on my fridge reads "Change it -- right now!" I can't change H. I can change me. I wish I could change H, but this board has shown me otherwise. Over time I believe he'll return some of my kindness and meet some of my EN’s. I have to guard my heart b/c I'd love to have my needs met elsewhere...

Nordstrom,

The word "expectations" is one of those words that can be really really harmful. You were saying nice things to your H and you "expected" some sort of nice response. It cannot work that way. You do what you do because you want to and you KNOW it is the right thing to do. He will notice or he will not. If he does not notice, then YOU have decisions to make, not him...YOU.

This is the part that is so hard to realize. Do the right things, the kind things, and you will feel better. Will he feel better??? Not if he does not notice them, but if he does not notice them, it is his lose...not yours.

One other thing, please reread the Needs questionaire, and if you can get your H to read them. Harley has done very well noticing the obvious. If you are trying to meet the wrong needs or the correct needs the wrong way, you will be working for nothing. Well focused, consistent effort on the "target" is the key.

Your job Nordstrom is to become someone YOU admire and like. Your job Nordstrom is to be able to look in the mirror and KNOW you gave this marriage YOUR best shot. It may or may not work, your H has to do some changing as well. But, worry less about your H 'getting it' than you do about doing it write and with grace.

Don't you just love the word "grace", it evokes so many powerful images and yet it is a well used power, a seemingly effortless power, a correctly utilized power.

Give this time Nordstrom and I think you will be happy with the result.

God Bless,

JL

I'm working on not reading too much into everything but something happened the other night. My H and I were having dinner and his cell phone rang. He contemplated answering it after reading the caller ID then he bypassed the call and told me it was "James" a male friend of his. I hoped he was telling me the truth but I did check his vm later and it was one of the W he talks w/ on a regular basis. In the message she said that she was calling to see how he was doing and that she hadn't talked with him for awhile. I was really upset that he lied about who it was on the phone -- we've discussed this person and of course he says they're "just friends". Then, my H gets all worked up and says he's having an anxiety attack after I asked him to show me his phone and his caller ID. He claims he deleted "James" from his phone!

The next night I couldn't find him for 2 1/2 hours. He said he went to an all-night store to get medicine for his stomach and then went to sleep. His mom didn't know where he was either. A few days later I found a receipt for a bar tab in his pocket for the same time he was "at the store" and sleeping. This is a huge exercise for me but -- i thought I'd just share this w/ any of you who might be tempted to confront your WS -- i'm trying to overlook it and continue to build LBank and meet H's ENs -- yikes! Sad thing is that the night I found the bar receipt, we were having a nice night. The only other thing that is worrying me now is that H has been only slightly interested in SF lately. Of course, this gets me extremely worried and lowers my self esteem. We even went to a small group church meeting on intimacy where we talked openly about the need to set appointments for SF w/ your spouse when one spouse says "no". Any no should come with an appointment to reschedule the SF....

Okay, so I'm frustrated over no SF, I'm worried about the vmail from OW, I'm mad about two lies -- call and the bar -- and I'm optimistic that I can restrain myself enough not to do another Love Buster ... one day at a time!

Just had to vent!

Blessings,

Nordstrom

Nordstrom,

Only have a few moments, but tell me what would the "old" Nordstrom do about these things? Tell me what the "new" Norstrom do?

I'll give you a very short answer as to what I would ask you to consider.

Tell him you know these things. Tell him you really would appreciate it if he told YOU the truth, and then proceed with whatever you two were doing, SF, whatever.

Why? YOu need to train him that honesty with you, something you need, and that you will NOT blow up on him for it. You are also letting him know quietly that you do not approve. How? He knows how you feel about these other women right? Well, he then knows now that you know about these lies, that you don't approve. You broght them up and encouraged honesty.

Think about this. I must leave.

God Bless,

JL