Most of the books on infidelity deal with what happens AFTER an affair is discovered.<P>I've bored you all to death for over six months with my trivial little problem. But this business over the weekend with H changing his plans to go to work immediately after getting off the phone with PSBFH have thrown me completely for a loop.<P>He's looking forward to our December vacation, he seems happy with me, he's affectionate. Even in his sleep, if I put my arm around him he makes "happy sounds." Sex is fine, no distancing behavior, he's been home all the time for the last month, and until this weekend I'd really thought this time, maybe, just maybe, I'd gotten through.<P>I really don't want to hire a PI. For one thing, if he finds out, whether something's going on or not, it's a major lovebuster, and unless I'm sure I want a divorce if I either find out something that way or he finds out I did it, it's a low-percentage move.<P>There's no evidence lying around such as hotel bills, love notes, business cards or anything like that. He could cover his tracks if he wanted to go away overnight with her, but he doesn't. No abnormal expenditures, no additional secrecy, over and above the normal .<P>All there is is this screwy event from over the weekend.<P>I don't want to live in denial, but I don't want to live in constant, pointless paranoia either. I've told him what I feel about this woman, and either he doesn't care, doesn't want to do anything about it, or feels he can't because he has to deal with her through work (her company is an ongoing vendor with his). <P>So my question really is this: Are there ALWAYS behavior changes of some sort when someone is straying? Has anyone ever had a straying spouse when his time seemed to be accounted for? Should I just stop worrying and assume that he's not cheating, he's just an insensitive, inconsiderate lunkhead?

I'm confused, you asked if behavior (sp) changes?<P>Quote:He's looking forward to our December vacation, he seems happy with me, he's affectionate. Even in his sleep, if I put my arm around him he makes "happy sounds." Sex is fine, no distancing behavior<P>But then you say<P>Quote:Should I just stop worrying and assume that he's not cheating, he's just an insensitive, inconsiderate lunkhead?<P>What's wrong with this picture? He sounds like an affectionate, happy, insensitive, inconsiderate lunkhead. That sounds like the average male! Seriously though I'm seeing mixed signals. But where from? Is he that different or do you perceive him differently through your suspicions? Hope you find you r answers.<BR>

My best guess is your H is caught between a dragon lady that has some influence over his career and in the past has been what he has considered to be a friend...and his wife that he loves, but considers to be off base on this one.<P>This woman's behavior's are suspicious. Actually, since you have viewed her being inappropriate to other men, I think that something in your favor. Either she takes what she can get (pretty pathetic), or she is a harmless albeit unsavory flirt. Either way she isn't exclusively hitting on your H. This weekend aside (which can be interpreted many ways) you have not seen your H be more than friendly to her. I believe he feels she is part friend and part influential business contact. He may feel her flirtatiousness flattering (or not) but he shows no overt signs of being attracted to her.<P>On the other hand he has a capable, loving, "fix it" type wife who seems absolutely "nuts" (projecting his thoughts, not mine) over this one person. He thinks you have no foundation for your fears and because he of that he believes you should let it go.<P>Looking at it from his point he is in a precarious position. He doesn't have many friends and most are in this group with OW, right? So he would be kind of giving up the whole group...in his mind for nothing. He may feel you are being unreasonable and he may feel you do not respect him with your lack of confidence and what he may see are unreasonable demands. Yet he doesn't want to displease you. He loves you and he wishes you were just happy. Since he has limited emotional capabilities he may feel trapped in having a rough idea how he feels, but not being able to verbalize his feelings.<P>He knows he feels between a rock and a hard place, but he doesn't know how to gracefully negotiate himself out of it.<P>Now once again for the record. Dragon Lady is dangerous and inappropriate, your H should be more sensitive. And this is such an emotioanl trigger for you, you are admittedly not altogether rational. If you are unwilling or unable to discuss this with your H (I know you did in the letter) further, you may be stuck in this yucky place for a while. <P>My conclusion is, keep your eyes open, but please do not obsess to the point that your fears are determining your words and actions and you deplete your marriage and/or your own heart needlessly.<P>

Check out WWW.DivorceInfo.com<P>There is a page there somewhere under "adultery" that lists some signs. I think the most disturbing sign is "If you have a hunch that something is wrong, something is probably wrong." But there are a bunch of physical things you can check too.

Gee, I know that "I don't want to be duped again" feeling all too well! That's about trust, right?<P>I still have some fleeting thoughts that raise an eyebrow. I don't obssess over much unless "evidence" appears to be glaring.<P>I get the feeling OW is initiator at this point. Maybe SHES'S still testing the waters. Perhaps he realized this and didn't bite after her phone call.<P>

Dazed, <BR>Sometimes the betrayers don't act differently, yet, there is something, some invisible something that keeps us questioning ourselves (and our mates). Fortunately you developed the "non-discovery" Plan A behavior. <P>My husband denied,got really defensive when I would (ever so gently) ask if he was having an affair. "You don't trust me" and then I would be on the defensive. Asking is a MAJOR love buster to some betrayers. I didn't know about love buster, so I continued to ask. "When would I have time for an affair? I'm always home". True, so I started doubting myself. I saw a therapist.<P>Wouldn't you know that since my mom was a perfectionist, I projected all my "I am not good enough" feelings onto my husband. So,I was in therapy working on all my insecurites, but still feeling that "something". Well, my therapist was right about my childhood issues,but she was wrong about that "something" being created by me.<P>Dazed, if your husband is having an affair, he's not going to take your feeling about that woman seriously. He's not going to want to give her up because at the moment he's dazed and confused!<P>You're doing the right thing with "non-discovery" Plan A. And I agreed a PI would be a major love buster. Even if it confirmed your doubts, your husband might just storm out the door.<P>Okay, to the point - if your husband is having an affair, it could last for years because he getting all this wonderful treatment from you and I think he loves you. But the OW is giving the treatment too. Only you know how much longer you can continue "non-discovery" Plan A. Is there a "non-discovery" Plan B?

So, Morningstar, your H WAS having an affair? I wonder sometimes if our self-esteem problems create a self-fulfilling prophesy -- that's what I fear.<P>It sounds like you have much of the same childhood baggage that I have. Much of your tale sounds similar. <P>This is the first time I've ever been in a situation like this. The last time H had a divorced female friend that I perceived as a threat, she developed a serious drug addiction and dropped out of site before it became an issue. But it was the same thing -- excluding me, the whole deal. Of course I'm in my 40's now, and feeling just generally more insecure about things.<P>FHL:<P>Not only doesn't he have MANY friends outside of this group, he has NO friends outside of this group. He refuses to allow any of MY friends and their spouses to become OUR friends. He still thinks of all of these people, even those who have embraced me, as HIS friends.<P>No, I haven't seen him be more than friendly with her, but at the very least he's utterly clueless about appearances. Either that or he's determined to punish me forever for having male friends 10 years ago that he knew about, friendships in which I always attempted to include him.<P>[QUOTE]He may feel you are being unreasonable and he may feel you do not respect him with your lack of confidence and what he may see are unreasonable demands. Yet he doesn't want to displease you. He loves you and he wishes you were just happy. Since he has limited emotional capabilities he may feel trapped in having a rough idea how he feels, but not being able to verbalize his feelings.<P>Oh, I know he feels I don't respect him with the lack of confidence. The problem is, this "You don't trust me" thing is a common betrayer response. So how do you know if it's an innocent spouse not knowing how to reassure, or a betrayer trying to cover up? I know he wishes I was "just happy." Early on in the therapy, he said once "I just want you to be happy." As if he had no idea what he could do to help.<P>I'm not sure he doesn't want to displease me...I think there's an element of passive-aggressive there. In the aftermath of the letter, how can he not know? And yet he doesn't. Every week I have one night where I don't get home till 7 because I go to the therapist. After the letter, he can't delude himself any longer that it's ONLY to deal with mother/childhood issues, because I TOLD him that much of it was dealing with my feelings about this "friendship" (or whatever it is.) So how can he be so clueless? It's like I'm standing in the middle of a dark room with a big neon sign over my head and he still can't see it.<P>But I've said my piece...I can't do it again.<P>Is it possible that not going to work for the rest of the weekend was his clunky way of trying to reassure me? Could he possibly not be aware of what it looked like?<P>He's a bright guy. He's a systems manager. How can he be so dumb?

He's a guy.<P>(sorry for all here that this doesn't apply to)<P>Sometimes I feel like I have a neon sign, too. Apparently those from Mars are blind to neon.

D&C - It's really difficult to say. The truth is that there really isn't any way to know for sure, except by hiring a P.I. And I'm inclined to agree with you, that's divorce territory. (Don't people usually hire P.I.'s so they can "get something" to use against their spouses in divorce proceedings?) In our last couples session, our therapist told me I was being paranoid when I described my worries about my W having an affair and then he actually told me that if wanted realistically to know whether or not she is, I should hire a P.I. Now I've been knocked around in these sessions for lacking trust, and I wanted to say (but didn't) that that would sure seem like a major violation of trust to me. So I guess the upshot is that you'll just have to live with your doubts. Even so, it probably wouldn't hurt to do a little snooping on your own. Some relationship books even advise that neither SPOUSE trust the other and that you constantly "check up" on each other. But this seems a bit much to me too, though I think, in practice, most couples actually do this a lot without thinking about it. The plain fact is, you can't PROVE anything is going on unless you actually catch your H in a compromising position with another woman. People do have friendships with the opposite sex, and, I think, as long as they TELL us about these (sounds like your H has) it's probably OK. It's the ones they DON'T tell us about that AREN'T OK! Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

FLH: LOL!!<P>Wex: Yes, my H has told me about this "friendship", but having a woman call your house asking for your husband and ignoring your existence; having her leave things on the answering machine like "I really need to see you; I really need to talk to you"; finding E-mail from your H to her saying he's just lost his job and "desperately needs to talk to someone other than my wife" -- this after ALL YOU'VE ASKED is that he try to hold himself together; watching her flirt with your H at parties and act as if they are members of a private club; combined with his overall secretive nature -- all these things do not exactly contribute to an environment of trust. Add to 3-4 nights out with co-workers in the spring of 1998, combined with a business trip to the West Coast in the summer of 1998 after which he decides he's "bored" with your sex life and tries to spice things up (an effort he abandoned after he started this job, leaving ME frustrated) -- and I'm sure you understand where my suspicions come from.<P>Meanwhile...yesterday one of my old [male] friends called me at work -- to ask if I knew a medical malpractice lawyer. H knows this guy, they've met, H was always invited to go when I'd see this guy, but he always refused. This was one of the guys I used to pal around with until the early '90's. I was never attracted to this guy and I don't think he was attracted to me. But during one of H and my arguments about PSBFH, he said, "R. talked with you about his love life all the time". 10 years later, he's telling me it bothered him?<P>So do I tell him about the call? Or does that just make him run to PSBFH for "revenge?" <P>PS -- I've talked on the phone with this guy for maybe five minutes perhaps twice in five years.

Dazed, are you sure that H was upset about you talking with this guy?<P>Or was it more like bringing his name up to point out to you that you had male friendships that he didn't have a problem with to make a point that you shouldn't be bothered by Dragon Lady?

D & C<P>On the face of it sounds like your H is just an insensitive clod, JMO.<P>I would tell him about the call and ask him if he had any advice for the friend. Even suggest that he call the friend with his advice. That way you are showing him you are open and it can never come back to haunt you, and no guilt.<P>On the other hand I'm just a guy

Oh, I'm sure it was the latter. H never said a word until it was time to throw it in my face to justify his friendship with PSBFH.<P>If he'd ever said anything, I would have either stopped going out with these people or seen what I could do to alleviate his fears -- something he's unwilling to do with me.<P>But don't you think there's a difference between a situation in which I <P>a) always told him where I was going, right down to the address<BR>b) always told him who I'd be with and when I'd be home (usually in a group)<BR>c) always invited him to meet me there and join us;<BR>d) never went any place that wasn't public (usually a restaurant)<P>...and a situation in which he <P>a) sees this woman one-on-one without me present;<BR>b) doesn't tell me when he's seen her,<BR>c) has told her things about himself that heretofore only I knew;<BR>d) has gone to her house alone, repeatedly, and not told me?<P>I think there is a difference of openness. Do you agree?<P>Oh, I'll tell him about the call, just because two wrongs don't make a right. I haven't seen this guy in five years, haven't talked to him in a year, was never, ever interested in him, nor him in me, and all he wanted was a freaking lawyer referral.<P>

Yes I do see how they differ.<P>Dazed, give this some thought. Change your strategy. Out the woman. I mean instead of the woman herself giving you fits in every and any situation, limit what your H percieves as your "nuttiness" to situations that involve his list of 1-4, which are obviously inappropriate even if nothing is going/went on...and welcome or work up to your list of 1-4. Then your H wouldn't be in the position of losing "all" of his friends or making the friendships awkward, but would give you some security.<P>Now I know you need her totally out to be totally secure. But this may make you secure enough that you could manage the left over stuff which you know has a lot to do with old baggage.<P>Now Dazed, you may need some flashcards of appropriate and inappropriate situations and some sort of electronic shock devise to drill the point home...but could this work?<P>Oh...just saw your mail. Will reply later.

Well, he HAS taken me to these two parties this year...that's more than he did in 1998. Back then he went to those parties alone.<P>I've been more than civil to her when we've had to deal with her. <P>The last party, he ASKED me if I wanted to go, and I said sure. So he has to figure I'm willing to try.<P>Funny...his need for these people is in direct proportion to how much his boss is b*tching at him. I wonder if PSBFH knew this when she got him the interview.<P>I told him about the phone call. I said that R. had called, that he's working in such-and-such a place, wanted to know if I know a malpractice lawyer. I also told H that R. asked how he was doing, and I told R. that he's an IS manager for a large brokerage (which he is). I said that R. was impressed.<P>He seemed pleased. Tense when I mentioned the call (Why?), pleased after. Then he said he wants us to go out after work one night this week and shop for a woodstove for our basement.<P>Then he did the dishes after dinner.<P>So now life is good...until the next time I hear THAT VOICE on the phone.<BR>