Harley cites research that says

it is easier for most people to change their beliefs and values than it is to change their behavior

just on the surface, how does this match up with your life experience?

Pep

When we take things for granted......beliefs and values can be "changed" or better put "perceived differently".....When there is a "crisis"......I think "behaviors" have a better chance at being changed.

At least from my experiences!
MWIL

nice............. answer

I totally GET what you are saying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course it is.

It's called rationalization. Change the rules to fit what you're already doing.

Also, he "cites", not sites. [color:"red"]-10, spelling. [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

FWAT

I invented a new cuss word !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

or could it be that to change your behavior, first you must change beliefs and values?

Without changing your values and beliefs, it would be much harder to change behavior?

Off the top of my had, I can easily apply that to my diet, exercise and eating habits.
[color:"blue"]
Belief: fast food is bad, must never eat it

Desire: 6" high Nations Burger w/Cheese

New Belief: Fast food is OK, once in a while

Results: Still 20lb too much Drucilla <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

FWAT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - that was so obvious, why didnt someone think of that sooner?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Really short answer... I agree :P

"it is easier for most people to change their beliefs and values than it is to change their behavior"

I understand what he is saying but I do not really know if it is easier.

Your beliefs and values directly affect your behavior.

If you believe something is right you have no problem behaving in a way that aligns with your beliefs. If your values say it is ok to do something then you will behave as though it is ok.

I think in order to effect behavior you must first look at your values and beliefs.

Now do I believe it is easier. No I do not. I think changing your values and beliefs is a very difficult thing to do. Your values and beliefs are engrained and changing them takes much time and especially effort. If someones values and beliefs are skewed there needs to be some serious motivation and introspective thought about them. IMHO it is very difficult for a person to even see that the values and beliefs they have are skewed.

But I don't believe a person can change their behavior without first changing their values and beliefs. Otherwise their behavior is "Justified" by their values and beliefs.

My H has been talking about this very thing...his counselor said first order change is trying to stop your choice of behavior...like Dru said, with dieting...(and Dru and I had the exact same thought with FWAT)

Second order of change is changing your attitude, your belief behind the behavior...

I have found that changing the most obvious belief behind the behavior to be pretty effective...but nailing down all the other linked beliefs (going way back) underneath that one to be very difficult...

I agree that crisis enables a fast change to behavioral change...I think it was my impetus for the second order change, as well.

Now Pep...tell us why you asked, hmmmm?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

I'm on lunch so I don't have a lot of time to respond...

... but ...

I think it's very, VERY difficult to change behavior... and even MORE DIFFICULT to change your core beliefs and values.

So, I think I'm saying I don't agree...

By the way, during my affair, I changed both drastically... but it didn't stick once my conscience kicked in... which tells me that my core beliefs didn't change, I just ignored them.

Agree -
Also agree it's easier to change behavior after you change your beliefs/value system.

Are the WS's that repent the ones that igonred their value system and feel guilty, and the ones who don't repent are those who changed it?

SS

Belief and values as we have been taught by our parents, society etc., are only superficial. We live by them mainly to be acceptable in the eyes of others. I think such beliefs and values can be easily be changed when faced with a strong temptation and when the "reward" (yuck) seems greater than the "punishment".. or rather, when we think we can get away with it.

Belief and values that we have lived and build ourselves are a lot stronger. That might be those "core beliefs and values" that we will hang on to and get us through temptation. WE have choosen these values. And I think we don't just believe anymore at this point - we KNOW.

Such a core value for me was that I should not hurt the people I love. I had opportunities to cheat on H - but just the thought of seeing the hurt in his eyes because of what I might do, was enough to stop me from even thinking about such things.

OW, on the other hand, felt that "society" forbade such behavior (having sex with other partners besides your S) so she felt like a "rebel" for doing it anyway. No core value I guess.

I think

many many times

the BS waits too long before changing from Plan A over to Plan B ....

and I think one of the MANY problems with that might be ~~~> this DELAY allows the WS more time to deepen the habitual behaviors which are cruel and hateful.

The longer we have been doing a behavior, the harder it becomes to stop.

........ just rumimating some other ideas that relate to this one ....

pep

Pep: this DELAY allows the WS more time to deepen the habitual behaviors which are cruel and hateful.

Yes. Because they feel they can get away with it. They can defy "mommy" and get their "cookies out of the cookie jar". That is how children grow "bad" I think - no-one sets any boundaries.

On the other hand..
I have seen people start to cry when the opposite happens.
When faced with truely unconditional love sometimes (not always unfortunately) this tears the superficial values and beliefs of entitlement and self-justification apart.
After which they usually say "I have been such an idiot"...

NOT if we subscribe to the "an affair is like an addiction" theory

Of course.. when in the middle of an addiction or withdrawl, that's not likely to happen.

And that's not just with A's.. a lot of fog is generated by people who don't want to give up smoking, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> !

A very thought provoking question...

It's all a matter of perception and/or position on the point at hand...perhaps whether the value or belief effects you personally. Case in point.. I used to believe that abortion was "ok". Over the years, as I became more mature, my position changed. First I believed it should be up to the woman, after all, it's her body. Then my stance changed again, to abortion is taking a human life. (Please, folks, this is my opinion, and I'm using this as a point in the original question, and I do not wish to engage in defending my position or detract from the thread)

My point is this. My values and beliefs changed over time, with little or no effort, a process that came with maturing in my life.

I'm 55 years old, and part of the baby boomers who have seen hundreds of values and beliefs changed over the years. This, in many ways has changed our behaviors, in an almost sinister, steath sort of way, without much conscious "decision making" in the process. Look how many words are used on TV today that were banned 30 years ago. Remember Elvis being only caught on camera from the waist up on his Ed Sullivan show appearance. Look at the ads on MTV, or even the ads for Hanes underwear today, most of which would have never been aired in even the 80's or early 90's. Oddly enough, in spite of what CAN now be shown on TV, there are still NO cigarette commercials. All of these have to do with "someone's" beliefs and values. All of these have some impact on our own beliefs and values breaking down some over the years, because with the constant exposure on TV, it becomes commonplace, then it becomes "acceptable" for some.

When I started college in 1968 very few "couples" lived together. Today, as many people live together as marry, or at least live together for several years before they marry. Many of these things that were "against" the beliefs and values I grew up with changed over the years, but without my own personal involvement, and there was little or no effort in those changes taking place.

Now, on the other hand, I will honestly state that I was pretty much a fence sitter on the issue of adultry, that is until it impacted me personally. "Back in the day", when boys will be boys, it was really fun to listen to someone tell of their sexual escapades, and not much attention was paid to who the conquest might have been, or whether the conquest was married or not. Now, today, in my "enlightened" way of thinking, infidelity is a curse upon this world of ours. I hate it, I hate what it does to everyone involved, and it is a "new" value/belief to which I am very committed. It wasn't "hard" to make that change, but it took some very painful experiences to come to the new set of values.

Changing behaviors is difficult, because many of those behaviors are habits. Smoking, drinking, overeating, DJ's, lack of radical O&H are all learned behaviors, all that CAN be changed, but require pain and discomfort to do so. Motivating factors can be widely varied, including Dr's orders, death of a loved one, "encouragement" from a spouse or loved one, self-improvement, etc. Many women stop smoking when they are pregnant, so, in effect, they are quitting for "someone else"; ie, their new baby. They are the secondary beneficiary, in a way.

I guess what I'm stating, is that in my opinion, there are a multitude of answers, and many of them "just are", and are not, specifically, right or wrong.

With all that said, it is my personal belief that the 8th wonder of the world, the television set, has been instumental in the slow, steady, insidious breakdown of a lot of beliefs, but perhaps moreso, values, over the past 40 years, that would have been better off is left as they were.

JMHO
SD