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BK,
I agree but have a question myself. We know that an A has nothing really to do with the A partner...just happens to be at the right place at the right time meeting the right needs. If the WS/addict has a truly addictive nature and you remove the crack, what keeps them from just choosing another substance?

What if it doesn't matter who the OP is, just has to find a new OP to give them that high...mostly EA to do this...so NC is not as much an issue since addict discards when bored and finds a new and more powerful substance...

I'm guessing major rehab to learn how to live around the constant temptations???

Who says it doesn't matter who the OP is? It most certainly does! That person came in and successfully met a NEED of the WS which caused the attraction in the first place. Meeting that need is what set up the addiction. The WS is attracted to THAT PERSON for that very reason. That is why it is imperative that contact end for life.

Now, if the underlying problems are not addressed, it could happen again, you are right about that. If the problems are not addressed the WS will always be vulnerable to another affair. But the contact must end because the WS is addicted to THAT PERSON.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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2 much, you say that the institute of marriage was built on certain principles such as honesty and integrity, but historically speaking it was built on the transference of property and they idea that women themselves were property.

Truthfully, I don't think people have changed all that much...I think that women, for the most part, simply kept quiet about things that they were unhappy with. They had few options & learned to tolerate alot...I also think that people were simply more committed to & better at keeping secrets.

Oh, I don't know, I think men tolerate alot too. I don't see too many women being quiet about what they are unhappy with, just the opposite. Most are quite vocal, to the point of being harpies. And many only care about their OWN happiness, unfortunately. Marriage is a TWO WAY STREET where the other persons happiness is of paramount importance.

Even so, I think most women are bright enough to take care of themselves and control their own destiny. If they don't they only have themselves to blame. Our happiness is not contingent on what some MAN gives us. We aren't victims, after all.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Bob: I was absolutely certain that marrigebuilders was just another set of mind wanking pop psych for middle class Americans when I first came here, and only followed it because I had no other plan.

I am now utterly disabused of that. I now believe Harley's principles of marrigebuilding should be taught in college.

It works.

Orchid: Many of us had similar thoughts upon finding MB and other sites. Prior to the internet, most of us would have only had the option of reading books (which is still good) and talking to a small support group.....at best.

There are other boards similar to MB. Just look up the word infidelity on the internet. However, most of the ones I checked out (while still in shock) didn't appear to give me what I needed most at that time.

Now CS, I am gonna say that while your question is a good one, I wonder why you are asking. It is ok to wonder but if you are doing this to get info for some sort of research paperwork other motive, just remember this is about real people posting about their real life experiences and the trust on this board is a sanctuary for many. Please respect that.

With that stated, I hope you will respect the comments from us here and I can share my thoughts.


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CS: If you are someone who has been on MB for more than six months, please tell me ONE thing that you were absolutely certain of when you first came to MB which you no longer hold as "the absolute truth."

And please discuss how your change of heart / mind took place.

Disclaimer: If you find these questions or my very existence on the MB board to be offensive and / or carcinogenic, please exit this thread now.

Many times the A is a shock to the BS, family and friends. In some casse, even pets are affacted. Finances, emotional, mental and even physical sides of our lives are often completely disrupted and chaos is left in the wake of d/d.

The thought patterns and attitudes most of us come in with are not what we learn to be for us individually and even effects our outlook on life in general. For many who once thought they were strong and could handle almost anything and probably have done so up til now.....find themselves like jello and wonder why? Why me? Why my family? Why, why why?!?!???

I for one never thought I would have given our M another chance. Yet in my case, several false recoveries ensued before the real one set in. Why? Not because we couldn't live without the WS. We could. We did. Not because I didnt' want the D. I did. Then why?

The answers to this last question will vary but mine has to do with the fact that the decision to recover or D is not ours alone. While the A is raging, the fight to survive is often the BS' alone. The BS fights against all odds from the very one who s/b their partner against all evil hitting the family. Yet during the A unlike other addictions, the WS becomes the worse evil ever to visit the family. That strange alienlike being is foreighn to the family yet he/she inhabits the body of a beloved family member. Something like the aliens from the movie MIB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

The things the WS does is in some cases worse than a crack addict or alcoholic. So here you have a WS who went from protector of the family to enemy #1. This enemy has rendered their family homeless, injured others, financially ruined themselves and their families, created a criminal record, made bad association choices, lost the respect in the community, lost their jobs, lost their homes, hospitalized with mental illness, etc..... yes these are just some of the experiences a WS can subjec their family to.

Yet the BS hold on? To what? Well there is no scientific study that can explain this one but love runs deeper than one's pants or panties. The A doesn't come close to replacing the real love coming from families/couples who have had real love in their lives.

Granted, not all M's are good and none are perfect. But the actions associated with true love past the sexual feelings run deep and to ignore those feelings with the history that can not be changed is not something to be thrown away so easily.

There you have it.....my explanation. I will tell you that while I would not wish anyone to experience living through an A in their family, I will tell you that the outlook now is very different as a result.

Tolerance of stupidty grows less. You become cautious where you give the benefit of the doubt to anyone. That isn't a bad thing it is just a sad thing that the A and other evils are allowed to run rampant in this world. Makes one wonder if there is a God, why is there so much badness? Awhh.....that w/b a whole 'nuther thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

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Send me, can you explain why you became angry one more time? You say your wife called for "permission" to stay later?


Our relationship is not based on "permissions"...it is based on discussing things that we want to do. I became angry because her perception is that I have a need to be ultra- controlling. Some may feel my boundary of no social discussions with her coworker (an EA while married, PA after our divorce, I know this for certain due to snooping) is controlling but it was a foundation to our recovery AND reconciliation. So when she tells me "I really should go to this clam bake as I need to network for a new job and I also am an officerwho doesn't go to anything any more" I knew there was the need to make an "appearance". She said she would only be there a couple of hours (including 45 minutes of travel)so I said OK...when she said she would leave by 8 I said OK....at 8:15 she calls to tell me "I'm late, I am sorry but xxx (owner of company) was giving out "awards"...Can I stay and help? My response was "You do what you have to do, but I knew this would happen"...she got mad and started nadgering me for "double standards (I have to travek for work, she had affairs with co worker and customer- I never did).

When she got home she started with "I feel like a grounded little girl"..."I don't get to do anything"...so my response was that was not true..."NO WORK RELATED SOCIALIZATION!!" and I became more angry..

My anger was also from a trigger...I received an e-mail update on a concert at a local resort. She used this band and resort as an "excuse" to see OM. It ws something she lied about. The lie was my final straw in recovery and this place made me reconsider. None of her "story" regarding this meeting w OM made sense. Supposedly he flew the band out and others went to concert, they met band , watched show and she and fellow employees came home. Well, I will always have questions....funny how there were no photos or autographs for this event...funny how the owner of a company, who does not own a charter flew out a pretty big band, funny how all I heard about it was "they look much older in person"...I don;t believe she even went....to concert...it was a booty call..and I know all I need to do is ask how the seating is set up in there and her non-knowing answer will seal that fact....I have never asked....Now, that trigger set me off that day...so when she started whining...I became angry..

DJ...Disrespectful Judgement....I finally told her that it had nothing to do with controlling her...it had to do with you the fact that if you as much as say hello to that man (coworker) you might as well be screwing him....which transgressed into my question....Why do you think it is all right to socialize with some guy you were screwing during our marriage (which I knew was not true)...then it went to her "not believing me about my faithfulness..."...so I shot back about her lies....

Basically I beat her with the affair club.....that she had no answers...and that is self defeating...to any recovery....

Look, she knows I have access to her work computer (sent her a key logger bomb), I know all e-mail and voicemail passwords...there is not a thing going on....I also have spies at her work....I have no reson to not trust her now....but my God how the past lies still haunt her....my memory of events from 7 years ago is uncanny....so when she starts giving me what I percieve to be justifications "You never cared, you were not around (UNTRUE!!), you know it was not because of work"....I go straight to peeved...do not pass go, do not collect $200...

My feelings are that I do not want to be put in the position of "granting permission"...she is fully aware of my boundaries and asking to break them...gets me angry...cause if the roles were reversed...her boundaries are not negotiable..as they should not be!!

make sense??


Me BS - 44
FWW- 42
EA for 4 years with fellow employee
became PA in Jan 04 - I knew of this one.
Seperated/ Divorced July 03
2 sons 14 & 12
D Day -6/26/04- PA in 1998 for about 1 year- I had NO idea.
recovery and reconciliation began 6/27/04

Remarried 2/18/06

My story?? Click below.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=129980&Number=1575914
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I am not arguing against NC, I think it is integral to recovery...

I think serial cheating has it's own additional issues and strategies and that is what I was getting at...

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Now CS, I am gonna say that while your question is a good one, I wonder why you are asking. It is ok to wonder but if you are doing this to get info for some sort of research paperwork other motive, just remember this is about real people posting about their real life experiences and the trust on this board is a sanctuary for many. Please respect that.


I want to second this...My expereinces are posted to assist others with what, for me, was the most brutal experience of my life. My wife is not happy that I post my life (and her actions) here. I have convinced her that if not for this site we would not be togther....this place is a sanctuary for those that admit to still loving someone no matter what hideous actions and betrayals they have done to us...


Me BS - 44
FWW- 42
EA for 4 years with fellow employee
became PA in Jan 04 - I knew of this one.
Seperated/ Divorced July 03
2 sons 14 & 12
D Day -6/26/04- PA in 1998 for about 1 year- I had NO idea.
recovery and reconciliation began 6/27/04

Remarried 2/18/06

My story?? Click below.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=129980&Number=1575914
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I am not arguing against NC, I think it is integral to recovery...

I think serial cheating has it's own additional issues and strategies and that is what I was getting at...

Well, yes it does, but serial cheating was never mentioned. A serial cheater is addicted to having affairs; it is an entirely different breed of cat that requires a much different approach.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Oh, I don't know, I think men tolerate alot too. I don't see too many women being quiet about what they are unhappy with, just the opposite. Most are quite vocal, to the point of being harpies. And many only care about their OWN happiness, unfortunately. Marriage is a TWO WAY STREET where the other persons happiness is of paramount importance.

Even so, I think most women are bright enough to take care of themselves and control their own destiny. If they don't they only have themselves to blame. Our happiness is not contingent on what some MAN gives us. We aren't victims, after all.



Your post only confirms what I said: Today's women will tolerate less than women did on the past. Today's women have more economic options.

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Who says it doesn't matter who the OP is? It most certainly does! That person came in and successfully met a NEED of the WS which caused the attraction in the first place. Meeting that need is what set up the addiction. The WS is attracted to THAT PERSON for that very reason. That is why it is imperative that contact end for life.

Now, if the underlying problems are not addressed, it could happen again, you are right about that. If the problems are not addressed the WS will always be vulnerable to another affair. But the contact must end because the WS is addicted to THAT PERSON.


I find this reasoning to be a bit circular...

I say that the WS is not addicted to THAT person; they are addicted to the way they feel when they are with that person. This explains serial affairs.

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I find the following comments to be disrespectful in and of themselves:

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Now CS, I am gonna say that while your question is a good one, I wonder why you are asking. It is ok to wonder but if you are doing this to get info for some sort of research paperwork other motive, just remember this is about real people posting about their real life experiences and the trust on this board is a sanctuary for many. Please respect that.

With that stated, I hope you will respect the comments from us here and I can share my thoughts.


Perhaps you missed the disclaimer.


Disclaimer: If you find these questions or my very existence on the MB board to be offensive and / or carcinogenic, please exit this thread now.


Are we going to waste MORE bandwith questioning my reasons for asking questions?

I have ONE statement to make towards you at this point->

You should exit the thread now if you have come here in error. I did not read the rest of your post because I wouldn't want your opinion to be in danger of being disrespected by me.

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I was a serial cheater...so I gotta chime in...and go with CS a bit here...

Because I believe cheating is about the cheater...not the OP, OPs...

To the initial degree...that OP was meeting ENs...well, we can't have our ENs met unless we allow that influence...still the choice of the WS; in my case, FWS...revoking that permission as a method to self-medicate, which is the boundaries Mel and MB encourages FWS to adopt to protect their marriage...

Maybe splitting hairs here...the OP is the symbol of the WS's feelings...and I support NC for life...and know that doesn't stop the affair-process if the underlying issues within the WS aren't addressed by the WS...

How we earn our F.

LA

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Send me...That was a very open / honest post. I think I understand...

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CS

We oldies recall a student troll called Dustkitty from a few years ago that solicited personal details and a whol elot of support under false pretences from well intentioned people on here.

Following the 'drama' of your introduction to these boards its natural than an oldie would ask you this. Many 'controversial' posters get asked teh same thing. Theres nothing personal.


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CS

We oldies recall a student troll called Dustkitty from a few years ago that solicited personal details and a whol elot of support under false pretences from well intentioned people on here.

Following the 'drama' of your introduction to these boards its natural than an oldie would ask you this. Many 'controversial' posters get asked teh same thing. Theres nothing personal.


Perhaps you have not been aware of the type of behavior that has been exhibitted here lately...It is VERY personal because I was emailed personally and people who thought they had personal information about me decided to post it here.

I am not tring to "elicit support" I am simply asking questions.

Why do people come into online forums if they don't like questions?

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Why do people come into online forums if they don't like questions?

People come here usually in despair to try to handle the worst crisis of their lives ,CS. Maybe Orchid was trying to find out if that's why you're here too.


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Maybe.

But I am of a different stripe. I like to prevent problems if possible.

I think that the best time to use Harley's (or any other expert's info) is before there are probs...


It seems that people just don't want to believe that.

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Everybody thinks its best to use Harley principles before theres a problem. Thats why I said I think it should be taught in college; but in the overwhelming number of cases I have seen on here an affair is the catalyst to make people learn such tools as MB.

I can't think of any of the vets who would think its not best to use MB before theres a problem.


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Maybe.

But I am of a different stripe. I like to prevent problems if possible.

I think that the best time to use Harley's (or any other expert's info) is before there are probs...


It seems that people just don't want to believe that.

Gee CinSug, I can't imagine why anyone would question your motives...After all, your original posts here were full on attacks of Neak, a "MB Veteran", and a newbie BH...Why oh why doesn't everyone see how very altruistic your mission here is? I simply have NO idea...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Why are YOU here in this particular thread if you don't want to be exposed to my brand of altruism, and why are you so h#ll bent on continuing this cyber battle?

Cyberspace is vast-almost as vast as space itself...You never have to be exposed to me if you do not seek me out.

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I find this reasoning to be a bit circular...

I say that the WS is not addicted to THAT person; they are addicted to the way they feel when they are with that person. This explains serial affairs.

"When they are with THAT PERSON." They are not addicted to EVERYONE, but to THAT PERSON. That is the KEY, you even said it yourself. And that is why it is imperative that contact be cut off with that person. Not everyone makes them feel that way, only THAT PERSON.

Most cheaters ARE NOT serial cheaters, but a serial cheater, on the other hand, is addicted to having AFFAIRS, not to having a certain need met.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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