We could but just didn't want to see... hurt less...
Then it comes the moment we have to face to...

Boy can I write (think loud <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

So, if you read, and survived, and above all understood (congratulations if you did! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)...
- what's my problem(s)?...
here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

IMO, if one's needs aren't met, they have the right (and obligation?) to say so. "Honey, I would love more affection", "I want more time together", "I wish you would buy me more presents". Perfectly fine, I don't see a problem with it.

But, a scorekeeper would not say that. Rather, they would make you feel guilty because they would show you that they gave you more than they got back. So they'd say "How come you drove up to see me only once last week, while I drove down to see you three times?", "Why am I always the one to initiate affection?", "I bought you more presents than you bought me".

See the difference? Instead of discussing an issue or a need, it becomes a contest of who's "ahead", hence the "scorekeeping" label. Me, I don't think I start my conversations by trying to show my partner how much more I do for her than she for me. It creates defensiveness right away.

Now, you are right, when faced with someone giving me the score, I reply in kind, but it is only because I usually see an explanation as to why the "score" is out of whack (e.g. I cannot drive up her way when I have the kids) or because I see a score that grossly overlooks some facts.

Scorekeepers express their needs (or dissatisfaction with how they are met) by using comparative tools (score): "I always do XYZ for you, you never do ABC for me". Non-scorekeepers can express the same concern without the comparison: "I would like you to do more XYZ". In my opinion, scorekeeping creates division rather than unity, because it inherently tries to tell the person that they are "behind" in the score - most people are not apt to respond well to that tactic.

AGG

Got it, and I agree, in general (this might correlate with having positive or negative thinking though, not 'scorekeeping'... wrong?)


And what if you apply that 'positive thinking' attitude, and no result? (And you are not ready yet to split...)
What would be the next 'step' in communication?


And if she sees that something 'grossly overlooks some facts', or 'out of whack'... is she than allowed to reply/say/compare and not to be considered a scorekeeper?

E.g. she says - 'honey, when you said/did/didn't accept that, sorry, but IMO, I think it's out of whack',
and you say - 'honey, it is not, and yadayadayada'... what if she gives you one sample of similar (in her opinion, as you have yours) case when you had 'opposite roles'...?
I mean, how could she avoid it, by saying what?

Oh, Harley has tons of stuff on this in his Basic Concepts. You use things like Thoughtful Requests, etc. But you certainly do not resort to "I always do this, you never do that". That is scorekeeping, and will get you nowhere.


It's all a matter of extent. If someone regularly relies on the tactic of "I always do this for you, you never do that for me", then that person is a scorekeeper. But of course, if someone tells me that I never call them and I decide to point out that I have called every single evening for the past six months, that would not make me a scorekeeper.


Look, the basic problem with scorekeeping is this. We all know (or should know) that there are three sides to every story - his side, her side, and the truth. That is why when I talk about making "mental notes" of "the score", I know that they are just that - mental notes, with MY slant on them. They are biased, and I know that they are, no matter how objectively I may want to see them. So when I need something, I don't bring up my biased mental notes to prove that the score is in my favor. I know that my partner has her own equally biased scorecard, and for us to use our scorecards to prove that the other person "owes us" is pointless. It's much better to simply bring up your point and discuss it, instead of trying to prove to the other person that they are "behind" and "owe us".

The scorekeeper, though, will not admit that there is a different perspective than theirs. They will use "the score" to try to convince you of their truth. Show me the last time that ever got anyone anywhere...

AGG

What if someone doesn't say it, only thinks of it...?
IMO that's scorekeeping too...

No, I don't...dredging up past "accounts" to bolster a current disagreement is death to a relationship. I prefer to deal with the current issues. I detest the old "Remember when you did..."

I'll exit a discussion pronto when that starts. If it starts often enough, I'll exit the relationship.

The very fact that one would ask these questions mean they've already slid into the scorekeeper mentality. The "equity" has become more important than anything else.

If I'm in scorekeeper mode, EQUITY itself becomes what's important...not that I actually care about the very issue.

For example, If I cook ten meals to my girlfriend's one meal, I would become unhappy until she cooks her nine...regardless of whether she was a good cook or whether I actually liked cooking, etc, etc...(BTW, the only thing she knew how to make for dinner was reservations)

It comes down to each person having their needs met by the other...some folks are high maintenance, some low...so their may be some natural inequity in raw acts...

But if neither person is unhappy with the arrangement, where's the issue?

I'm not one to count acts...but I know when someone is making an effort to meet my needs or not...and I don't need to dredge up a ton of balance sheet entries to make that point.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I wonder if it's 'related' to sex, and it's more visible with women...

We all have the giver and the taker. It is only normal to keep score on some level. It's when it become compulsive or the balance gets out of wack that things go wrong.