JL....I like what you had to say about "internal" and "external" shame. However, while some psychological research doesn't look much like science at all....the latest research involving magnetic imaging and the study of emotions....being done not by the psychiatric community....but neuroscientists....is not so subjective nor easily dismissed.

What are specific examples of <bluntness with shame>???

I'm just at a loss about the difference (i.e.- versus Bluntness - Guilt)???

Who decides which is which???

Finally, can we really "shame" someone on a message board???

Don't they just "feel" shame (hopefully)...do we really have the ability to deliver additionally feelings of shame?????

Sorry...I'm just trying here.

Mr. W

big K,


I'm glad you brought this up bk....because I agree with you that folks who follow bible teaching are very familiar with the use of the word shame and view it as part of God's word. It may relate somewhat to what JL was saying about internal and external shame (and NB too).

I respect your relgious beliefs....and I understand where you're coming from.

I very much appreciate your thoughts on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Are you not saying that MB Vets YOU perceive or infer, by analyzing their style and words carefully, that the MB vet in question, thinks or is telling the wayward newbie they ARE bad, they are flawed, they are evil, forever????

Isn't the difference between <Blunt-Guilt> and <Blunt-Shame> a matter of your or anybodies perception of the deliverers intent...i.e. whether the MB Vet is trying to be destructive versus helpful???

Even you admit to unintentionally doing it from time to time, you must get that from the advice seekers response but you seem content in your pure goal...thus it was a mistake and not intentionally. Your premise is that some MB Vets intentionally are destructive and abusive with "shame"???? Of course, this is for discussion purposes only. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Anyway...I think I found something on that expert thing. Back in a few minutes...I'll be busy googling. lol

Mr. W

Forgive me for running out on y'all....but a big storm knocked down a tree in my driveway....and I need to go get help so that I'm not trapped in this house...I'm getting hungry!!!

Y'all can trash me and shame me while I'm gone!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh Star,

Don't get me started on medical "science". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Let's just say our ability to measure in the medical field far exceeds our ability to understand, and frankly REAL science experiments cannot be done or are unethical for a good reason.

But, the point is taken that at least are looking into and studying these topics.

Oh did you know that the first EVER study of what constitutes a healthy human being was undertaken by NASA. Know why? Doctors only looked at sick people in their "research". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am not knocking the medical community. What I am saying is that we don't enough and may never know the basics of living organisms.

A crude example I like to use is that I can take an electron and put it in a vacuum some place all by itself. I can leave it for a day, a month, a year, thousands of years and it is still an electron. IF I put a human in a room by him/herself, feed it, but provide nothing else, when I come back in a month, a year, a decade, many decades, I will NOT have what I put in there, unless were are simply talking about the chemical constituents. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Makes doing "science" in the medical field very difficult.

God Bless,

JL

I've been to many of these scientific meetings where research is presented to other experts in the field ...some using PET scans as well .... you would not believe the bickering and general bullying that ensues .... it's freaking hillarious!

One of our papers was ripped to shreds at one of these meetings... I'll never forget that ... I don't think I felt shame ... more akin to sheer terror <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> ... and the desire to go imbibe martinis <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't have the killer instinct to go up against that shark tank....

I know a famous criminal defense attorney who uses PET scans when defending the most heinous criminals ... brain damage stuff ... trying to prove her clients are hard-wired for cruelty ... it's interesting stuff

and guess what?

not a slam dunk ... just coz it's published does not mean the study came to a conclusion everyone would agree on ... I think they LIKE to fight at these meetings and rip each others' research apart.

I think it's a MAJOR stretch to imagine that you or I or anyone here causes SHAME on someone who is not already feeling shameful.

If I tried to cause you to feel shame by whatever means ... I am pretty certain I'd fail .... without your cooperation! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

PS... Lou Gossett Jr is a sexy sexy man .... and I feel zero shame saying that!

JL .... medicine is an art

everyone knows that


Pep

Pep,

Yup, we sure do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been in more than my share of scientific meetings and you are right it can be pretty heated. However, ultimately the ability to predict and match those predictions against new data prevails. Of course that is the problem with medical research we are NOT all alike, and the emotional, ephemeral side of it makes it an art.

So are we done trashing Star? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JL

I am not making the arguement that "shame is good" ... maybe someone else is

here's my thing

shame IS

that's it

shame exists

not good
not bad

it just IS

same as other painful experiences

I doubt others can be the cause of shame (as I understand it) unless it already exists in that person's psyche

shame exists there within that person ...

not

I brought shame and placed it there

Pep <~~~~~ shameless fool

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Yeah ... coz now I feel like trashing medical research ....

as deepthroat said to those 2 newspaper boys >>>> follow the money

SO MUCH medical research is actually funded in very suspicious ways ..... hmmmmmmm

Pep

I haven't read the whole post.

I was amazed when I saw some people thought the replies were harsh. My "harsh" antenna goes up immediately (with good reason LOL)and it just waggled about thinking WantOut was being given wonderful replies.

I am always thankful that JL was the person who answered my first post. Probing, thoughtful, made me look at things in a whole new light. I did get a couple of "nasty" posts and I was completely flummoxed by them. Didn't they know I was a nice person?

I know FOR A FACT that if someone had flamed me back then when I'd mustered every bit of courage I owned to post for the first time ever on a forum board, I would never have come back.

OK….Starfish.

I am going to play just one time to try and clear up some of these issues. This is not an attack, but a [edited to add- "attempted"] debunking. lol. Don’t get me wrong, I like some of your posts and you clearly have a writing gift, I just wish you would utilize such gift to actually post to people instead of focusing so much attention to how other people post. I personally think you are wrong, but I am not arrogant enough to think I can even come close to changing your mind or even debating the issue. So this is not a debate. Like JL said, it’s far too subjective to debate. Further, Right or wrong, nothing is likely to change.

IMO, MB IS effective because we are all here and active despite our differences of opinion, beliefs over what works best and who is more compassionate and empathetic. It’s the best message board on the web that I have seen. To me, the more support and differing opinions and advice given to a newbie, the better off “they” are. If you or anyone backs off posting due to fear of being called coddlers or put down for differing in opinion then that is your/their issue. How exactly can THAT be anyone’s fault, is beyond me.

To start with, I don’t buy any of your premise that what some posters herein actually are posting is in any way “shaming” anyone. As you’ll see below, I wish we could actually “shame” them in the short run to get them out of their affairs to their benefit. It actually can be motivating according to your very own expert. However, I believe the strong posts you refer to are, in fact, merely worthwhile attempts to shock them back into reality and that “shame”, the kind noticeable on any PET scan or discussed in D.Brown research and writing is not achievable or applicable to anything anyone could possibly post on the MB message board. I feel it is a disservice to those here to imply that they are motivated to damage or shame people with their so-called offensive “style” and an absolute lie by anyone to ever implicitly state or imply their “pain” motivates them errantly to post in such manner. All in all, I think your whole premise here is actually thinly veiled elitism, that you are trying soooo very hard to make look like constructive and compassionate criticism. I ain’t buying it. If you ever dislike my posts, email me or post how destructive it is to my face if you like…you don’t really have to conflict avoid with these meaningless veiled tirades (shouting silently with big words and irrelevant experts and psuedo-inapplicable science).

That being said, please review these words by Dr. Brene Brown herself and how I feel her research may relate to wayward spouses, “shame” and posts on MB. I likely won’t respond further as I have already wasted enough time trying to decipher and analyze meaningless (to me and MB) psycho-babble. In essence, I conclude Dr.Brown’s research and writing to be inapplicable to the situations on MB and find your misuse of her words misleading, inapplicable, elitist, distracting and pretty much a waste of time. Of course, I don’t at all question your right to post it.


JL is dead on above and he is a great example of a poster using many different styles according to what HE thinks will work. WHATEVER WILL WORK. For him and those like him I am eternally thankful. I have learned a great deal by reading and observing their words and style(s). If I post like others (including JL) it’s because I respect them and have seen their words work wonders. I greatly respect all the MB Vets that so willingly give their time and efforts in the fight against infidelity, including YOU.

NB….grace is a good description of what I see in you also.

BigK….agree 100%


So here goes nothing (literally): Dr. Brene Brown's words found on the internet are all quoted.



Wayward Spouses ARE NOT “trapped” YET. There is no overwhelming ratio of expectations (end your wayward ways) to options (end your wayward ways NOW) being offered, suggested, stated or implied on MB. The option of “sin no more” is a very realistic and a simple way (usually not easy) to meet the expectations of the posters herein.

That being said, JustJilly is a recent example of a wayward spouse in a 10 year old affair marriage upon whom I personally restrained myself from posting to. I couldn’t post one day to someone telling them/promising them their wayward spouse’s relationship with OP WOULD disintegrate and then post to Justjilly the next day about how to save her affair marriage. I think Justjilly’s exit posts were right on…she really had no place here. Others could post what they want, I would never think to question their posts to her, I personally didn’t want to post to someone that was so obviously and permanently “trapped” in shame. She is an example of one ”trapped in shame”…she can’t go back to her God-given husband, she needs to end her adulterous affair marriage and really can’t marry again (except to her original husband) pursuant to my religious beliefs. I quickly realized I had absolutely nothing in the form of support for her so I choose to abstain. My personal decision. However, Justjilly is the exception to the rule….most waywards that appear on MB are not so “trapped” in shame because the options and expectations are not that onerous…END YOUR AFFAIR.


Waywards are not “powerless”. They may be paralyzed by “feelings” but they alone have the “ability to act and produce an effect” that is if they respond quick enough before they destroy their marriage beyond reconciliation. Though “shame” may illicit within such wayward newbie themselves such “quickness” (see below – B.Brown even acknowledges “shame” is a motivator) I still think it’s impossible for us to deliver it. The “shame” you perceive us to be throwing at them can not be characterized as utilizing “shame”. It is entirely impossible for anyone of us to make them actually shameful because they are not trapped, nor powerless, YET. The posting style you dislike is, IMO, NOT an attempt to say “they are bad, they are flawed and/or they are a bad person”. I believe they are in fact, challenging them to “feel guilt” and illicit healthy change. I, personally, post under the presumption that if they are on MB seeking support here there must be some goodness in them that can be drawn out IF WE CHALLENGE THEM…if we hit them smack in the face with reality. Sometimes I post that way…other times I am restrained…it’s all situational.




Since “isolation” is a product of being trapped and powerless…neither of which a wayward truly is YET then “isolation” doesn’t really apply either. Besides “society” doesn’t adequately make a wayward feel so isolated. The media and society in general accept and glamorize adulterous “love” affairs. No shame there…so the fogged out wayward believes. MB does a great job and service of counter-balancing/disabusing the newbie wayward spouse of this societal misrepresentation by pointing out to the Wayward (and making them “consciously” aware) from the get-go that life as a wayward spouse and later in an contemplated affair marriage will be “isolating” and unpleasant. MB posters should point out clearly and directly that they should fear THEMSELVES (not by our words) feeling “shameful” forever if they choose to continue their ways, divorce their God given Spouse and marry their supposed soul mate affair partner in an adulterous marriage. We really need to shock their “consciousness” with the realization of the never ending “shame” they are likely to feel if THEY DON’T turn away from their wayward ways…NOW. Like Justjilly, if they fail to wake up and become conscious TODAY, they may just end up powerless, trapped and isolated down the road.



The waywards that appear at MB are or should already be experiencing/feeling “shame”. We can not and do not do it to them as stated above. However, they are not stuck there YET. Again, when they arrive they are not powerless, isolated or trapped by shame. I propose and surmise that by actually being direct, brutal, tough, and harsh many here hope to illicit “REAL” change, awareness, insight while the wayward still has the ability (hopefully) to make a thoughtful decision in enough time to save their marriage. “Meaningful, healthy change” is only possible if the quick change to their wayward ways is timely made now matter how such change is illicited. That IS truly compassionate and empathetic. Mincing words and taking to much time to ease along the wayward newbie MAY only delay the process even if in the long run, according to your interpretation of Dr. Brown, it could be healthier. What good is a healthy divorced FWS???? We SHOULD shame them if we only could....dang.




I believe and have seen the best results on MB when we challenge and attempt to shock such waywards back into reality when they arrive here. IMHO, some balance in posts is good, 2x4’s and so-called coddling posts have a wonderful combined effect as long as we ALL stay away from commenting on each other. The wayward is coddled to stick around but MORE IMPORTANTLY challenged/shocked to respond with “I am not bad”, “I am not flawed” and “I am not a bad person” to the 2 x 4’s or Blunt/Shame, if any. They are “challenged” and hopefully “shocked” NOT “shamed” to feel guilty and thus prompted to make amends and change their behavior. I think most agree that if they truly are bad and flawed they will continue down this infidelity road to utter destruction no matter what we say. If those waywards or you want to perceive what we are telling them to do and how we describe their insidious actions as additional “shame” so be it because in the end that IS my opinion of them. However, the wayward that takes our words to their core, recognizes their own feelings of “shame” (not ones instilled by anyone on MB because I’ve already demonstrated that is not possible) and uses their own “shame resiliency” (a B.Brown concept) to say “I am not what these people think I am”…they then become, IN REALITY, motivated by guilt to make amends and change their behavior.


If by some stretch of the imagination anyone’s words here were in fact able to deliver “shame” to wayward spouse newbie...perhaps, we should all aspire to do just that. You can see quite clearly that Dr. Brene Brown acknowledges shame as a “change agent” (which all of your previous posts conveniently disregard) I REPEAT, DR. B.BROWN SAYS SHAME WORKS in the short term. According to her words above, it IS an effective short-term tool to effect “swift behavior change”. What better expert can I find than YOUR OWN EXPERT. She even uses the word "swift" and I've already discussed how timliness IS important and relevant. There must be a recovery, before the damage of so-called shame and building up of the wayward spouse can ever begin or ever be really done. Perhaps, the sooner, the swifter we get them to act, by whatever blunt means we can muster, the more likely they recovery and the better off they will be.

As far as the rest of the sentence after acknowledgement of the fact "shame works", Ms. Brown research is limited to only discussing how shame affects regular every day woman (normal women in general NOT wayward spouses) and that such “shaming” inflicts serious consequences. I highly doubt B.Brown would consider such “consequences” in the short run as MORE damaging than the damage done by a wayward spouse to his or her self, their spouse and their family. I could care less about how an abusive wayward spouse on MB may feel in the future if she/he doesn’t STOP being wayward. Such consequences of shame are self-inflicted and have NOTHIING to do with how I/we decide to post to them at MB.

I further disagree strongly that I am or could somehow be damaged because I choose to post harshly, even if I could use <blunt-shame> as defined by you, to someone when I do choose to post strongly from time to time. Like you, I do so for what I perceive to be in the waywards greater good, because I have empathy for them and want to see them stop their wayward ways AS SOON AS POSSIBLE for themselves, their spouses and their families.

All in all, it is my belief that an active wayward spouse is incapable of full “awareness”, clear “insight” and “thoughtful decision-making” to overcome "shame" anyway until out of the fog and into reality. Shame (if possible to deliver), bluntness, guilt, embarrassment, 2x4’s, rants, vents, WHATEVER possible CAN and should be utilized by us to bash someone OUT OF THE FOG…so that thus they may be more successfully able to "FEEL" anything, including the guilt, awareness, powerfulness and the self-worthiness necessary to "really affect change". If we don’t empathetically bash them to such decision quick enough, if we enable them, coddle, or try to peacefully or calmly “rationalize” with them, instead of feeling pain for a short time they may just end up becoming trapped, powerless and isolated divorced or, God forbid, in an affair marriage and stuck THEMSELVES feeling such unhealthy “shame” FOREVER. Now THAT would be truly regrettable.


<Blunt-shame>...if I can, I will. I don't really think it's my forte...but I admire and respect those with the ability to actually blunt-shock, er, blunt-shame effectively.

Mr. Wondering

You certainly can.

Mr W you have "the carrot and stick of Plan A" attached to your signature line.

Given your views that a carrot and stick don't work, shouldn't you remove it.

And what really gets me going is that most veteran posters go to great pains to point out what a Plan A is but it doesn't seem to apply to WSs on the board. It seems then you can unleash any sort of fury you want. Maybe Plan A should be changed to "Really let your WS have it with both barrels. Use the worst language you can think of. Tell them what a worthless person they are" That's sure to work. I should really contact the Harley's and tell them that the MB board thinks Plan A should be changed.

Having said that, I don't think WantOut was treated to that. I think all advice was spot on.

Jen,

I think Mr. W is addressing some things that Star said. I don't think he is advocating "letting the WS have it with both barrels" so to speak. The questionis: is shame something that we (and that includes you) can impose on a poster here? If we could would it be an effective way to motivate a WS? Which leads to what people think and do.

He is not advocating just blasting a WS. In fact he asserts that he does consider whether he can offer anything positive or not to a person before posting to them. I agree.

You and your H were people that I felt for some reason I could speak to. I don't know why, but I just felt it. There are others here where I don't feel I have anything to offer and if I did it would not be received well. So I don't post to them.

This is not about fault or intention, but feel. Oddly (to me anyway) Anyname is someone that I never could really connect with in a communications sense and she was a BS. Somehow anything I said offended her, so I stopped.

I think what all of this discussion indicates is that communications and certainly communications on a board such as this is somewhat of an art form and we just have to play it by ear. There really is no sheet music to work with.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, JL, I haven't really done justice to this thread, I've been busy at work and sort of half reading.

No, shame as such isn't something you can impose, I meant more that people's words can have a very significant emotional affect even on a bulletin board.

I think we all "get along" with some posters more than others, just life real life I guess. Sometimes when it's been a situation like Wantout's, which parallels mine in a lot of respects, I just didn't have a lot to offer.

Well, I'm back for my last post of the night. People gotta sleep around here ya know! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

While I appreciate a spirited discussion, I think I've repeated myself enough (and the MB-world heaves a collective sigh of relief <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ).

Just a few thoughts:

• Shame, to me, does not equal worthlessness. On the contrary, it allows is a natural progression from a wrong act (sin, if you will) that opens the door for RECLAIMING a feeling of worth.
  
  
• Different people respond to different posting styles and sometimes the same poster needs hugs one day and a swift kick in the hiney the next. I also adapt my delivery accordingly, at times.
  
  
• I believe that brain chemistry changes during infidelity, as it does for anything "pleasurable" (blech, if only you'd seen me DURING my affair - anything but pleasurable - it was more like the manic phase of bi-polar, and I don't say that jokingly or disrespectfully - I *appeared* giddy, but it was so... almost unreal)... anyway... ahem. <tumbleweed rolls by as NB is lost in thought>
  
  
• All this talk about brain scans, chemicals, neurons and stuff makes me wonder why scientists spend millions of dollars to tell us that mean words hurt us (like we don't know that already) ... and yet my son (who wasn't breathing when he was born 21 years ago) still doesn't know exactly how or why his brain (or his hands) don't function properly.
  

And with that, I bid you good night.

ETA: Mr.W, a wee 'thank you'... grace is a word I'd never thought of to describe myself. To be told twice in one day that I have it is lovely.

NB- GREAT POST. Thank you.

Oh...does she??? Where is your board Star*? I would like to see it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

congratulations! >>> the duck comes down<<<

You said today's secret word

tumble weed

>>> Groucho says: "Say the secret word and you'll win $50." <<<