Hello All.....As much as I'd like to play all day....my little boys birthday is tommorow and we're going to Seaworld. But I didn't want to run off without making an attempt to reply to some of you....though not as thoroughly as I would like. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Please know it isn't because I'm ignoring anyone.
JL....I agree that there are problems with research and experts. Everything has problems, but that doesn't mean that this much evidence from this many sources is dismissable. Harley is an "expert" afterall....should we dismiss him? We don't because we can see that his strategies work....it's believable. That isn't dissimilar to how I feel about this body of work....from many researchers....that point to problems of using shame as a motivator. I certainly can't expect everyone to find this interesting or relevent....but I do. And that hasn't changed. Thank you for your thoughts.
Mr.W.....whew....you wrote alot!!! Thanks for all your time and thoughts. Let me try and hit a few highlights, because I can't respond to everything you said.
Don’t get me wrong, I like some of your posts and you clearly have a writing gift, I just wish you would utilize such gift to actually post to people instead of focusing so much attention to how other people post.
I just wanted to say....that yesterday, while posting on this thread....I posted to many many people who needed help. I mostly post on the EN board, but I posted to many people on this one too yesterday. I checked my posts....and I made 24 posts unrelated to this thread helping other people. I am often the first one to greet folks here on MB and the person who looks for unanswered posts. And I've spent 5 years posting to people and have amassed over 14,000 posts...so I really don't understand your criticism about how I've utilized my "gift". I think this was kind of a cheap shot.
Secondly.....this is not about STYLE or "how people post". This is about "shame" as a good/bad motivator. So I'm not going to get baited into another discussion about coddling and style. It's been done ad naseum and gets nowhere.
Yes...this discussion is unlikely to change anything....in my eyes, that doesn't make it a worthless discussion. Obviously, if I thought it was pointless....I wouldn't waste my time.
I agree this is a great message board and the diversity of it is one of it's strengths. I also agree that different postees will connect with different posters. However, you're still talking about style and coddling and I'm not.
To start with, I don’t buy any of your premise that what some posters herein actually are posting is in any way “shaming” anyone. As you’ll see below, I wish we could actually “shame” them in the short run to get them out of their affairs to their benefit. It actually can be motivating according to your very own expert. However, I believe the strong posts you refer to are, in fact, merely worthwhile attempts to shock them back into reality and that “shame”, the kind noticeable on any PET scan or discussed in D.Brown research and writing is not achievable or applicable to anything anyone could possibly post on the MB message board. I feel it is a disservice to those here to imply that they are motivated to damage or shame people with their so-called offensive “style” and an absolute lie by anyone to ever implicitly state or imply their “pain” motivates them errantly to post in such manner. All in all, I think your whole premise here is actually thinly veiled elitism, that you are trying soooo very hard to make look like constructive and compassionate criticism. I ain’t buying it. If you ever dislike my posts, email me or post how destructive it is to my face if you like…you don’t really have to conflict avoid with these meaningless veiled tirades (shouting silently with big words and irrelevant experts and psuedo-inapplicable science).
Yikes....okay....sticks and stones Mr.W. If you want to disagree with me....fine....however, calling me an elitest or conflict avoider making veiled tirades, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> weakens your argument in my opinion. I have a long history of being a contributing poster on this board...and I think you might be the only one who's EVER called me a conflict avoider!! LOL...shrinking violet I'm not. I'm not going respond to your obvious disrespect or the angry tone of your post. I can only say that when you find a post troublesome...it's better for you to avoid that post and poster. Afterall, these are just words on a message board....they don't really have any power, right? You're proving my argument for me Mr.W. If my words can create anger, disgust, aggravation, irritation, etc....why don't you think words can create shame? Words are powerful...even words on an anonymous message board. Much better writers than I have spoken about the power of words.
[color:" blue"]Philip [censored] said: "I really do inhabit a system in which words are capable of shaking the entire structure of government, where words can prove mightier than ten military divisions."
Vaclav Havel said: "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." [/color]
Afterall....aren't words the only weapon we have at our disposal to fight infidelity in this place?
Now to the issue of Dr. Brown. It's interesting how you picked and chose things to highlight. Shame most DEFINITELY creates
change.....rapidly....that's why people use it!! It's used all the time. What Dr. Brown is saying....and I <think> you know it....is that it's a crummy motivator. You don't think this stuff is applicable to MB...I do....don't know what to tell you....we just disagree.
These are her words too:
The majority of shame researchers agree that the difference between shame and guilt is best understood as the differences between, “I am bad” and “I did something bad.” Shame is about who we are and guilt is about our behaviors. When we apologize for something we’ve done, make amends to others or change a behavior that we don’t feel good about – guilt is most often the motivator. Of course, you can shame someone into saying, “I’m sorry,” but it’s rarely authentic. Guilt is as powerful as shame, it just doesn’t have the paralyzing and debilitating impact that prevents shame from being an effective agent of meaningful change.
Whether waywards feel trapped, powerless, or isolated....all of which I'm convinced they do when they experience shame...this wasn't directed at only waywards. Shame affects everyone. I've seen shame used to on BSs too. For instance, those who don't follow the MB handbook about exposure or Plan B etc.
You think "shocking" is a good idea....sometimes, I agree with you....as long as "guilt" is the vehicle for shock and not "shame".
You highlighted the red portion of this paragraph....because it said that shame creates change:
B.Brown: [color:"red"] So, the long answer is that shame is used as a change agent all the time. It’s used in our “here and now” society because you can actually see a swift behavior change when you use shame.[/color] The consequences, however, are very serious. Shame promotes change by using fear of rejection, fear of not being accepted and fear of disconnection. Ultimately, shame is very destructive to both the person doing the shaming and the person being shamed
But you used the paragraph like a buffet table...and only picked the part you liked. I think you missed the meaning...because clearly it talks about how destructive shame is as vehicle for change. No one is refuting that it creates change....is it a good idea to weigh the COST of using shame in that way. I think that's worth looking at.
Aside from this....Ms.Brown is only one of many researchers doing research on shame. Now if you think that's unapplicable here....I respect that....I just don't agree. I've been here a long time Mr.W....I've seen some stuff that was pretty disturbing.
If you want to "bash people out of the fog with a 2X4", use shame and embarassment to motivate people....I can't stop you. I don't have that power. But it seems to really get your goat that I don't agree that those are as effective as using guilt rather than shame. You asked me on another post about how to use bluntness+guilt instead of bluntness+shame. Bluntness+guilt would be about attacking what someone is doing. Talking plainly about the consequences and the tragedy that those actions will yield. Bluntness+shame is attacking who someone is. Name calling, humiliation, intimidation.
As far as justjilly....wow....I'm wondering how were going to help people in that situation or if we can at all. Maybe some folks just think....good riddance....affair marriages are not legitimate and we can't help them. Affair marriages have rotten odds and trigger things for our main body of posters....the problem is that whether it's distasteful to me or not...they're legally married and often there are children involved in both the first marriage and the affair marriage....such a tragedy. I don't know how helpful this board will be to them....but if I can help....I will try to. I won't mince the truth....and I didn't with justjilly....but I won't run them off either. It's a tough situation.
Thank your for your time and energy Mr.W. I appreciate all your thoughts.
Kiwi....I KNOW that this board has the power to create shame....some disagree....I respect that, but I've seen differently.
NB....Thank you for your thoughts. I understand what you're saying and appreciate the way you presented it. I'm sure there are many folks who agree with you.
Suzet....They're pulling your leg chere....I don't have my own board. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
