My quick story is thjat i busted my wife 8 months ago in a EA with an old boyfriend. Nothing but a dinner happened and she was rebuffed in her attempted PA. Lucky for me, i found out the nest day and stopped it all.

6 months later she made another EA attempt and i busted that before she managed to get to a personal contact stage.

I lived thru a first marrige with a woman who cheated on me with maybe 5 - 10 different people over 8 years.

The problem is i have found my current wifes EA's much , much more painful and unable to handle than the PA's i experienced in my first marriage.


My current wife is extremnely repentant and we are in therapy. She still feels as if she could never have gone thru with it but i challenege that. This almost destroyed our marriage and happy home and of course our marriage will never be the same.

But reading thru some of the stuff on this forum i realize just how bad this could have been.

To me an EA is just a fialed PA attempt if they try to make contact. If they never try to initiat personal contact then its just an EA, bad enough but not as malicious and slimy as a attempted PA.

I am extremely disappointed in my wife and she has a lot of work to do to prove to me she loves me the way i love her, but she is repentant and does not want to lose me/us.

Am i right to take some solace in the fact they were only EA's that either got rebuffed or stopped before they developed into long term problems. Or am i just reaching for any reason to be happy i am not letting our marriage fail?

She is a good woman and i think she may have just been going thru some tough emontional times and needed some attention which i wasn't sensitive enough to provide.

I am also clinging to the fact that she says this onbly happened this 2 times and that my 12 year marriage is not a lie and she has been doing this all along.

I think after the forst PA attempt i didn;t really truly make her face what she had done, i helped her tell herself it was just a silly innocent flirt event with an old lover.
I have made her clearly face what she is /was doing and how she was never ever as innocent as she felt she was being, that she knew and had to face these thing in herself if she wanted to save us.

They're both just as painful and damaging to the BS. And to the marriage.

And both need to be 'treated', or 'healed from' in the same way.

And the MB principles apply for both pretty much equally from what I've seen and learned.

And I'd agree with you...IMHO, any EA left 'alone' long enough will almost always become a PA as well.

And most PA's will become EA's if they didn't start out that way to begin with.

The bottom line is that the causes (and fixes) for both are pretty much the same. And so is the damage.

No STDs caught with EA

the ~only~ major difference

I personally could handle the EA, I could not handle the PA. My wife told me many years ago that if I ever cheated she would divorce me. I also told her I would do the same if she slept with another man.

I read some of your story and know a little bit about a WS. They lie about the details of the affairs. Your wife was throwing herself at multiple men that you know of but never had sex? I would guess the chance that it happened like that is about oh 2 percent. If you hooked her up on a lie detector and she had to tell the truth you would find out she slept with some of these guys.

I am not saying you should do a lie detector, I am just saying I doubt you are getting the truth. Maybe that is why you think the EA is just as bad and maybe it does not matter to you.

My WS denied anything with the OM. Now I did have evidence but she did not know this. I had pics, emails, recordings and yes even some video of them that proved a physical affair yet she said she would never sleep with another man. I think it is great if a person can get past this stuff. But if a WS can lie and not face consequences for their affair I think they may be more likely to do it again.

I thought my first 2 DDays were EAs. I was torn up but not broken like now. I think that for me, I had a little bit of understanding at how an EA could happen somewhat unwittingly. A little. But to be honest, the 3rd DDay that proved to be a EA/PA has been positively devastating. I believe one of the reasons is that everyone knows that having physical relations outside of a marriage is WRONG. I cannot seem to get a bit of perspective on how WSs can justify that. talk is talk and can be justified. sex, no way. The PA has been far more difficult for me to handle and the picture of them being intimate never stays out of my head for long.

Then her ability to be physically faithful was only as good as the integrity of the guy she was throwing herself at or your ability to monitor her? Eek.

Personally, I think a PA is much worse (not to minimize what you're going through). 'At least' with an EA, you don't have to worry about STD's, pregnancy, them doing it in your bed, being with you after, was the OM bigger/better, mental images of them being together, did she do things with OM that she wouldn't do with you, ad nauseum.

You guys do sound like you're on the right track. Stay strong, stay still, and stay vigilant!

I think there are a lot of people out there who don't see EAs as dangerous to a marriage. There are also a lot of people out there who don't see flirtatous behaviour as putting them at risk of an affair, EA or PA. (My XH didn't feel like "a man" if he wasn't in an EA, but he didn't think it was cheating if they didn't have intercourse, even if they stayed the night together.)

However, I have to agree with the last poster.


Your wife was looking for a physical affair. Her EA was not innocent. You are entitled to your pain. Hang in there. I'm glad you are working on this together.


Mrs. W8ing

Experience EA's & PA's throughout our marriage, the EA's didn't become PA's because it was not always possible: some women didn't, yet he persisted in their companionship.

My H too does not see such relationships as affairs, because they did not go fully physical, shared lunches, long chats, secrets, what if desires, etc. those women were a challenge to my H, he enjoyed the chase.

On becoming honest something he said stunned me but I was grateful to hear it "I am not looking for anyone anymore".

The physical violations were equally devastating.

Nothing prepared me for the assault on my sense of who I am.

Both Emotional & Physical betrayal can't be quantified, except the physical betrayal can cause death through hiv or hepatitis. Both cause emotional destruction to everyone involved.

In my experience emotional emeshment with an opposite sex member leads to sexual intanglement eventually. if it doesn't actually happen it is a desired outcome of the people involved, whether they admit it to themselves or not.

Just my thoughts as I am learning.

Yes i understand that i am leaning out on a giant ledge of fragile material in beleiving that. Its almost impossible for me to beleive. I have found no direct proof otherwise yet other than lots of the normal circumstancial stuff associated with the EA. I also feel i am on slippery ground beleiving this sort of thing hasn't been going on for 12 years already, people just don't become untrustworthy.

In the ends i guess i have to trust if i don't have proof, knowing that eventually something woudl come to light to expose the falsehoods.



yes i know this the very difficult part for me, in time i hope this feeling of not being able to trust my wife when she is out of my site will subside. At least something better make it change because even though i am trying to be strong here it is a daily battle with myself not to just give up and serve the needs of my selfish wounded male ego and run from the problems.

vercing,

When I have visions of my STBXW having sex with her OP's it hurts. It hurts a lot more imagining her saying the"I love you". It hurts the worst when she looks me in the eyes and lies about anything.

Lies have forced me into my D. Not an PA nor an EA.

Verc, personally I think the worst scenario for recovery is when a WS gets involved in both EA and PA. I agree that EA and PA are equally destructive and devastating to a M, but IMO PA takes an EA one step further on the ‘scale of betrayal’ (check out this thread) and involves further and more serious betrayal towards the BS on both emotional/physical level. I believe the big difference between EA and PA is that when you have a PA with someone you know without doubt that what you are doing is wrong... I mean, I can't imagine that sex and using your genitals (or any other part of your body) can happen ‘accidentally’ or ‘by chance’.

However, one can get involved in an EA if boundaries are unwittingly crossed from platonic friendship into something more. This can also be explained by using the frog in the hot water analogy: If you threw a frog in a pan of scalding water it would quickly leap out in shock. If you put a frog in cold water and slowly turn the heat up, he will stay in the water until it’s dead. It’s very easy to cross an invisible line without being aware of its impact.

So in my opinion, EA’s can happen unintentionally (I don’t say this is always the case) but a PA is intentionally since clothes can’t get removed by it selves. When a friendship with someone develops to a deeper level and you realize you’ve crossed boundaries into EA and developed romantic feelings for that person, you still have the choice to stop before it develops any further, but if you let the EA develops into an PA any way, IMO such a person takes an enormous step to further betrayal towards the spouse...

IMO acting on one’s feelings by becoming involved in PA in any way (whether it’s embracing, kissing, petting or sexual intercourse) is always a conscious choice and never unwittingly or unintentional. However, I’m aware that for WS’s who have "fallen in love" with the OP it often takes enormous will-power, self-control and self-discipline to stop once boundaries has been crossed into romantic feelings and EA…it’s very hard to go into reverse once you are past a certain point of emotional connection…and I believe this is why most WS’s in such a situation then lack impulse control and get involved in an PA while there original intention wasn't to have an A and to cheat on their spouse in the first place.

In my case my H said to me my emotional betrayal was very painfull and devastating to him, but he also said he's thankfull and glad about the fact that my EA never became PA in any way...that he would find it 100 x times more difficult to forgive an recover if that was the case. From what I’ve read on these boards it’s generally more difficult for woman (both BS and WS) to recover from the emotional side of an affair than for men. And usually for men who are BS’s it’s more difficult to recover from the physical part of their W’s A. But there are many exceptions.

For me personally, having sexual intercourse with someone is the worst form of betrayal I can imagine...especially if it’s a ONS or visit to prostitutes where there is not emotional connection with the person… I can’t imagine how it’s possible to have the most intimate and vulnerable act on this planet (sex) while having NO feelings or emotional connection to that person at all. Doesn't make sense to me.

See I really have a huge problem with that.

At some point in an EA, the spouse knows and CHOOSES to cross a line. THe affair can remain an EA and it is a fully fledged love affair. A PA makes it worse but for many women it is the emotional connection that is worse than the sex.

Yes, this is correct, but by choosing to physically act on the feelings as well, the WS takes one BIG step further in the betrayal towards the BS (IMO).

Yes, this is true. The emotional betrayal IS very devastating and damaging to ALL parties involved, but for me personally (and for my H), physically acting on my feelings and becoming involved in PA too in ANY way - whether it was *just* kissing and embracing - would be the final and ultimate betrayal towards my H.

I guess I am not like many women. The knowlege of the EA was hurtful, awful. The dishonesty to partake in it was very hard for me to get over. As a woman I would have been glad to talk on the phone with my WH, why would he want to talk to OW. But truly for me, upon discovery that the EA became EA/PA I have felt inherently changed. Destroyed more like it. I, after six months, feel as devastated as DDay. The physical act is obviously intentional. I feel my most private, exclusive (I thought) marital act has been exposed. I see them in my mind all the time. I am unable to perform well sexually because I feel compared to an accomplished OW (she was known to be "loose"). Like suzet said, I know that a WS knows an EA is wrong, but some of their conversations are just general talk and not every conversation is sexually charged so they fool themselves into thinking that it is not so bad. Wrong I know. But you would have to be from another planet to not know when you have sex outside the marriage that that act is WRONG. The very difficult part of recovery is just that for this BS. I can have absolutely no perspective on FWHs PA. and I have heard that a little bit of perspective is required to ultimately forgive.
I do not think an ONS on its own would be the same for me because that can be alcohol related and rather impulsive, and requires very few lies. However, I no longer can assume how I would react to anything anymore until it happens, so I may be way off base on that comment and feel horrible for any BS who has to go through any of this crap.
I do not mean to minimize an EA, either. It is very painful and I realize now it is just a precursor to a PA. And unfortunately, the WS may not think that is true so they may not stop their very dangerous wayward behavior, when it is brought to light because they do not fully understand that an EA is like a gateway drug to a PA. I think if BS and their WS recognize how damaging these EAs are maybe more PAs could be prevented.