I may HATE WH now. I hate his guts. I hate his lies. I hate his languages. I hate his selfishness. I hate him being irresponsible. I hate his way of raising our son. I hate his temper.

Why should I hang on to our M now - it seems my love for him is gone. I just can't respect him as a person anymore. I must have been so stupid to feel for him before.

It's hard when DS3 talks about his daddy, but I just can't picture us being happy together anymore. I know he will always be HIM, and nothing will really change. He does not even think his personal issues (addictions, laziness, lies, etc.) are big deal.

It's still hard to admit that what I once believed is gone. I think the reason I am still here, haven't completely wrote off WH is simply because of our history and DS3. It's not because of love. At least right now, I do not feel an ounce of love for him. He is selfish to the core. He is a liar. He does not know how to be responsible. What kind of man is he???

I just feel so stupid for having wasted my time on him. Is this normal to feel this way, and is this the point where people decide to move forward completely? Why do I still feel sad?

Interesting. I say that because often I feel these feelings from my wife. So.. I have some questions.

Why do you stay?

Why do you stay angry and upset?

Are his addictiona, laziness lies and so on just somewhat normal things for a human being, or is he truly sick and needs help?

How is he selfish?



Sorry for the questions. The most important one is the first one. If you are so absolutely miserable with him and you dislike the very ground he walks by... then why stay? How do you stay with that? Why would you? Self torture? To torture him?

How do you imagine you will ever get over this?

Patriot, you asked why I stay - that is the question I have been asking myself. A year ago, it was because I still had so much feeling for him and hope for us. But the way he handled the situation in the past 18 months has taught me a lot and I really lost respect for him as a person. So now it seems I do not have a very good reason to stay, other than DS3. He is the most important thing in my life, and every time he talks about his daddy, it breaks my heart. I wish things could be patched up and we could live together again. But then again, I really can't imagine us being happy together ever again. So I go around and around...

"Why do I stay angry?" Actually, until recently, I was not so angry. I felt I could 'forgive' him. I have done something that contributed to the breakdown of our marriage as well, so I really thought I could forgive him. But then he does something stupid (e.g., DUI). Or he says something (e.g., he demands money from me to help him out for his own stupidity). These comments and actions REINFORCE my belief that WH is a big mistake in my life. Even his sex addiction - if he truly thinks it is a big thing and that nasty addiction really destroyed my trust for him and our marriage - he should not have acted the way he has, I would think. So when he is irritated because I bring up his addictions or DUI or whatever that happened in the past, it suggests to me that it's not a big deal to him. That scares me, irritates me, and makes me very upset. So even though I was doing okay until recently, I think now I am mad again because I see these behaviors on his end.

His lies - he lies because he does not want to do any 'hard work' to fix any problems we may have. He is the laziest person I have ever known. He is selfish, because his needs always come first and if he does not get what he wants the way he wants it, he throws a tantrum like a 2-year-old.

The reason I was attending MC for a few times with him is because despite all of these, I wanted to believe that he might be able to change. I know I have to change too. But for me, he has to realize what he did were horrible things and there is no excuse. Only if he admits that, I thought we might have a chance to work on our M. But WH only gets mad when the subject he does not feel comfortable is brought up. He wants to separate out our M issues from his addictions, lies, depression, etc. But I think they are all interrelated. And if he gets so defensive about his issues, how are we supposed to work on things? And then I feel like an idiot, wasting my time -

If there is a miracle that allows WH to become a very honest person and has a decent motivation to be a better person, husband and father - I can see myself wanting to give it another try. But if he continues to only focus on himself - I don't know how I am supposed to be hopeful and maintain feelings for him.

Milk

Your mind and heart are not in sync. So some of your feelings are based on reality (ws)and others are based on your memories (your H).

For now you've got to concentrate on your improvements and then if you are done and he is still a WS, go to plan B. That'w where the BS trail will take you.

You have to be ready to move forward even if it means unhitching yourself from the WS via D. You can't hold only your spouse forever if he/she is a WS. But if you do, you have to be ready for it. This means your personal recovery plan has t/b firm. Have you identified your personal and M boundaries? Ready to implement them?

L.

Thanks for your constructive input, Orchid. I feel I am facing a very difficult decision. To be honest, I am very scared. I am scared to make a big change in my life, which is D. So aside from DS3, the reason I am still here is because of this fear. I do not know how to overcome this fear. I have a job, and I am healthy. But I am scared of 'unknown'. Also, to be honest, I do still have this hope to have another child. But I feel I am running out of time. That is adding more fear and stress to the equation. I know I should be grateful for what I already have and I am. I am very grateful for DS3. But I have to admit that I do dream about giving a sibling to DS3. I don't know how to kill this thought.

I feel I am stronger emotionally than a year ago. I do not cry over happy memories we had anymore. I sometimes can picture myself without WH in our life. But I cannot say I am 'ready' for any big change. Or are we all like that before making big decisions and we just have to force ourselves to move to another stage? How do I prepare myself and get ready for it?

My personal and M boundaries/goals: no lies, being responsible husband/wife/father/mother, absolutely no drugs, better communication, and better anger management. So if these are broken by WH, I should not contact him at all?

Do NOT have another baby with this man just because you want to give DS a sibling! Yikes!! D is hard enough on kids, please do not bring another child into this M, with the train wreck that it currently is.

You ask how to "kill this thought" about having another baby. You do not need to kill it - but definately post pone it.
Milk - I know you fear change. But hasn't your WH all ready made the change? Hasn't he all ready changed your M, your R, forever?

I am not saying "D him and find someone else" but for just a minute, consider the possiblity that you are still going to have another child - only with another man who will truly love, honor, and respect you and your marriage vows. And consider the fact that each day you sit back, doing the same thing each day, and somehow expecting your H to change, expecting that the same actions will somehow produce different results, every day that goes by, is another day you could have spent truly living your life.

I don't wnat to sound "Anti MB" here, but the one thing I know, FOR SURE, is that you can not have another baby with a man you have all ready said is terribly selfish. A selfish man will not do well with another child in the house, taking up even more of your time and attention.

WOF,

Thanks for your reply. Deep donw, I knew that bringing in another child will only worsen the situation. Even though WH was always selfish, we were doing okay, until DS3 was born. He even said that I was always focusing on other things including DS3, but not WH. So if we end up having another one, I would spend even more time with children and less with WH alone, which I can imagine will be a disaster. I guess I was hoping that if the next one will be a girl, then WH can really enjoy having his 'princess' and may help strengthen his sense of responsibility... Okay, I know, it's a wishful thinking and there is no guarantee that the next one will be a girl. I just wanted to 'believe' things could be different. But I have to admit that I feel now I am at a point where the facts are so overwelmingly suggesting that WH would never change into a responsible man. It's sad. I don't know how I could have been so stupid to get myself into this.

I see that you were married for 18 years - wasn't it so hard to break off the status quo? You have a point, WH has already changed our M, and we are not even living together anymore... But D still seems to be a big step. I am afraid that this fear will never go away.

Milk

Milkshake, why on earth would you visit this kind of responsibility on a child? To place expectations on an innocent child that she will 'tame' your H? To expect her to act as a 'princess' in order to save the marriage? This isn't wishful thinking - it's seriously unhealthy.

How old are you? Is the clock ticking louder because of your age?

TA

I was not expecting her to save our M, I felt that since WH always wanted a girl, IF we had a girl, not only that DS3 and I would be happy to have a family addition, even WH would be much happier simply for having his family, sort of as a spill-over effect. But I realize that putting on any kind of expectations, even if it's not directly on the child, would be not fair to the child. I have all sorts of mixed feelings about having another child, because my biological clock is ticking and I do feel the pressure. I will be 38 this fall.

Hey Milk,
Had just been thinking of you and wondering how you were
doing !
Sounds like your WH is still, as mine, stuck in the same
old pattern of never taking responsibility for themselves,
failing to see that their issues are "big deals", seeing
the destruction they do to themselves and all around them,
etc. !
I too, have times when I just think of WH, hear his voice, see his things around the house, and wonder why I am still trying, still hoping, still wanting to make M work when he is out ridiculously chasing that trashy HO, making little effort or progress in IC, doing nothing to show any effort, care, or consideration for his family, his daughter, me, or our life.

I guess part of me still believes in our M and my true H,
but part of me wonders if he is really, permanently gone,
either due to his illness(es), MLC, the influence of the
A, or a combination of these things, and maybe can't ever
be H again. Wish there was some way to know, so I don't
keep hoping, praying, wishing, thinking, and end up with
nothing changing and me feeling like I wasted a huge amount
of time.

I understand what you mean about your situation possibly
being different if you had a girl child or a second child,
but it seems like the current situation would just be
further confused and more stress and strain put on you
(physically, financially, emotionally) if you had another
child with WH now, because it'd be more expense, more work,
more time, and WH is not currently able to be a pro-active
or very responsible parent. If things were to change and
your M improved and stable, there could still be time.
(Or as someone else has said, if it does not and you move
forward without WH, you might meet and build a new marriage
with someone else and have kids with them).

I always wanted to have one child with H, and have felt
very disappointed at times that we didn't have any (we
were still "getting around to it" before all this started)
but in a way I suppose I should be glad that it's less
complicated without, plus knowing of WH's illnesses I
would be worried about a child inheriting some of the same.

I don't think I'd ever remarry if we D, and even if I did
it would be likely too late to have kids (I'm 42 now) but
you never know- my former coworker is 48, and she has a
son in kindergarten (natural child, natural pregnancy after
25 years of marriage and thinking they couldn't have any !)

Slammed

Hi Slammed, great to hear from you. Thanks for your input. I know, I am just 'dreaming' about WH miraculously changing for whatever reasons, which, we all know, would not happen over night. I am truly disappointed about his 'ability' to be so selfish and believe that it is a healthy way to take care of his issues. I do not believe he 'wants' to be selfish, but since nothing is 'big deal' to him, his being selfish is NOT that a big deal either. Yet, he has become so sensitive to what I say or do, and if anything I say remotely sounds like a criticism to him, he gets upset and shuts down. Is this a phase, or a permanent fraud in his personality?

You are absolutely right about additional stress (physical, financial, and emotional) from having another child. I just went through the stress of potentially losing my job, and it was very hard because I have DS3 to support. I can't imagine going through anything like that with another child to feed! Because I do not have any family in this country, I have to provide everything. And DS3 is a very active boy, so he is handful for now anyway. I know you mentioned that you wished you had a child with WH, so I think you understand - we all know that it was good that we did not have any children or any more with WH, but at the separate level, we cannot help but to think about it simply because of our biological clock. So I have to keep reminding myself how WH is and what I am thinking is just a fantasy and is not a realistic dream (at least right now).

Thanks for checking in on me.

Milk

milkshake,

In this situation, I think that hate is a good thing. Who wouldn't hate the way an active WS behaves?

If you felt indifference then I would be concerned.

Don't have another kid now, that certainly isn't the answer.

Breaking off the status quo was HUGE, and very difficult. But it wasn't the actual filing for D that broke that off. It was my WH moving in with another mans wife and children.

I can still remember every moment of those first few days. He told me over the phone that "there is someone else, and, well, she treats him like he is the most important thing on earth to her" and well, I just didn't do that for him, so he was going to be with her. I kept it a secret for 3 days. Only my two boys and I knew. We were in a daze. I couldn't eat, or sleep, or even cook for the boys.
Then, I was so hopeful that he would walk in the door, teary eyed, begging for forgiveness. I didn’t want anyone to know, so that we could just put it behind us and move on. Of course none of that happened. After 3 days I finally realized I needed help. We had no food left in the house and I couldn’t pull myself together to go to the store.
As time went by, I could see how this would affect EVERYTHING I did. When I finally got up the courage to go to the grocery store (after about a month – my sister in law kept bringing us groceries before that) I remember walking into the grocery store and having a full blown panic attack. This was a place full of happy families. H’s and W’s shopping for food for their happy family. I was the only one there who had no H, I felt like I had a sign over my head that said “this woman could not keep her man happy”.
But I shopped, and went home. The next time was easier, and gradually it was no big deal. When the lock broke on my front door and I had to fix it myself, I sobbed on my way to the Home Depot. I didn’t know how to fix it, and why did I have to do it myself when I had married a man who promised to protect me, and love me forever? Why did this OW have MY H to take care of her door locks? She had a H all ready! Why did she need mine too!
But of course I went to the Home Depot, and an employee helped me, and I figured it out.

Do you see what I am getting at here? My life had all ready changed, the day my WH walked out. No matter what happened – if he had come back or not – my life was changed forever. And I was still alive, still living, and loving my kids.

There was a restaurant that we used to always take the boys too. My OS loves this place. I thought I would never be able to go back in there. But after a few months, I took OS there, and we had a nice dinner. That was turning point for me. I realized that I could still do fun things!!! I could figure out for myself, what I enjoyed doing – what brought me happiness, and for once I didn’t have to worry about how my H would react. I could just decide to go to dinner somewhere – and do it.

Meanwhile, WH was parading his OW #1 around town. I was getting calls from people who were confused, because they didn’t know what had happened, and yet they was WH and this “woman” and wondered who it was. Also, a couple of friends said that he introduced her as his “girlfriend” and they weren’t sure if it was some sort of joke.
He was going further into debt, and I knew he would drag me down. OW was starting to play hard ball with him to get his D, and I was afraid that I would lose my home in all of that. I was finally able to see that my life had all ready changed. Period.

I was scared to death to see a lawyer – afraid to even say the word divorce. I took a good friend with me to that first appointment, for moral support. It turned out to be much easier than I thought it would be. She was able to answer all of my questions, and take away my fear of the unknown.

A year after my D, I met a wonderful Christian man, who doesn’t swear, and doesn’t have the porn addiction my Ex had. He has 3 children of his own. We got married, and now, between the two of us, we have 5 children!

Milk, if your WH has made a temporary mistake with this OW – if he has fallen, but you are willing to wait for him, and repair the damage, then by all means hang in there. Don’t file. But if you H has shown himself to be a man who is capable of causing repeated harm to you – with this A and will likely have more in the future – then don’t hang onto him just so you can “say” you are married. Are you out there living your life? Or sitting around waiting for you WH to finally do the right thing? There are Sunday School classes that need teachers – there are hurting women who need you to visit them for a cup of tea, you have a 3 year old son who needs you to seize today, and quit wishing things were different. I remember spending that first summer (d day was June 25) just waiting for each day to pass. I literally counted. I made it rhoguh 1 day. Now 1 week. Now 1 month. I finally woke up and realized that just allowing the days pass was fine for me, but NOT fine for my boys. This was their life too. This was their summer. I did not want to just wish it away for them.
How about you and your little boy? This is the only summer he will be 3. Are you wishing for time to go by? Or enjoying it?

Thanks for sharing your story WOF. I'm very happy to hear how you met a wonderful man and now you have a big happy family. It's always nice to hear success stories, whether it's the recovery or new relationships.

In general, I am doing much better now and am enjoying my life with DS3. It's just when I have those 'moments' when I feel sad, depressed, and angry, I started to think a lot..., but this does not happen nearly as often compared to a year ago.

I can't say if I'm ready to resume D process (our D is pending - it's on hold till September), so I won't do anything at this point. But if I feel that it's not going anywhere and I'm only wasting my time and life - I will try not to be so fearful about my and DS3's 'unknown' future.

Thanks for your encouragement. I really appreciate it.

Milk

Milk,
You are a very capable person.
Often our fears are real, often they are unfounded.

Do you know what your biggest fears are?
Would it help to identify them, and analyze them?

SS

Re: the post by womanoffaith5 ( see above Wed July26 10:30)

This is not my thread, but wanted to say your post spoke to me as well. The problemn is the difference in knowing what one should do, and the emotions of what one feels like doing, and hanging on to the threads of what once was.

Well according to my litmus test, if you hate your WH, you still have feelings for him. They may not feel like good feelings but love and hate are very closely related IMO. It is when you couldn't care less about WH that you know it is time to leave. I was amazed how I could swing from love to hate back to love so easily and quickly.

OTOH, fear of change is a big deal. Maybe your hate for him comes from resentment of your own weakness. I don't know. Even if you are totally indifferent about your WH, that fear of change is very real and daunting. Just recognize it for what it is and that it is your fear and yours alone.

But if you truly do hate your WH, I think that is a very bad time to leave the relationship. If it really is hate and not a confused emotion, it won't last long IMO. Hating someone is about as hard as loving them. It really takes a lot of work to do it.

Thank you SS, DMbx and piojitos for your feedback. I replied to SS, as I thought your suggestion of listing up my 'fears' is a very good idea. A couple of days later I logged in - and it's gone. It's very frustrating. It seems each time I write a long thread, it tends to disappear!

As piojitos pointed out, fear of change is very big and I assume very common. Even when you are about to start something exciting, e.g., a new job, marriage, a new house, etc., you can get nervous – of course you get scared when you have to make drastic changes that are forced upon you! But like WOF said, a lot of changes have already taken place in my life since WH became an alien 2-3 years ago, and I need to remember that I have survived all of these changes.

WH came by to pick up DS3 on Saturday morning and before they left he mentioned “he does not want to leave”, but then he said “but Mama (to DS3) does not want me”, which irritated me, because he was basically telling DS3 that it is ME who decided to pursue my selfish freedom (NOT), kicked WH out (NOT) and broke up our family (NOT)!!! Since DS3 was there, I did not say anything, but this is what WH does ALL THE TIME now. He constantly gives a false impression that it is ME who does not want to stay married to WH. DS3 often asks me “Mama, do you love Daddy? Why don’t you live with him?” I do not want to badmouth WH for the sake of DS3, but if I do not say anything, it is as if I wanted divorce in the first place. It’s just not fair. So I would say to DS3 “I know you love your daddy sweetie, and that’s good. Daddy left home and now he lives in his apartment”. DS3 often says he ‘prefers’ staying with Daddy, which hurts me a lot. WH is a typical Disneyland daddy, and no wonder DS3 likes to stay at his place than at my place. But my job is to raise DS3 right, not to let him do whatever he wants so that he would ‘prefers’ me.

That’s true, if I feel ‘hate’ him, I may still have feelings for him. Though, now sometimes I can be ‘indifferent’ too. When I think of all of his lies and imagine how he will be like in the future (I do not have much hope for him to become an honorable and responsible person) – I feel very tired and discouraged, and that is typically when I enter into the ‘I don’t really care’ mode.

Tomorrow night we’ll have our 5th MC. I really do not intend to drag the whole thing too long – I only get older and I certainly do not wish to live like this much longer. 4 weeks ago, our therapist gave WH a homework assignment to think about ‘lies’. She basically asked him “are you willing to make a lot of efforts to stop lying to your wife?” She said “if you think you will continue to lie, then you have to let your wife know, because she will have to decide based on such information”. I don’t think WH even remembers this homework (well that would be really bad, wouldn’t it? It shows how lightly he is taking the whole thing), but if he DOES remember, I’m curious how he would answer.

Milk

Sorry you lost your post. I wish I could have seen it.

Fear is an interresting study.

Sometimes if we list our fears, then ask ourselves
"Why do I fear this," we find there is no good answer. Often it helps us remove the fear from our lives.

We find we are more capable, and more able, than we first thought.

My opinion is that what your H is doing with DS is abuse. Telling Ds that it's your fault he's gone is abuse.

I don't know what can be done to protect DS from this, but if there are options, it would be time well spent. Probably money well spent also.

I admit, I have not followed your threads. When I read what he is like now, I asked myself "Why does she want contact with someone that treats her like this."
Of course, you are both parents to DS, and there will be some contact as long as H wants to see DS.

There will come a day when DS realizes what the truth is. If you do your best, are honest, and teach him correct principals, you will look good to him then. WH will not look good.

I encourage you to continue raising him right, even though you have to cope with disneyland dad. It's the only way to do it, as you already know.

I am interrested in seeing what WH has to say in MC. If he doesn't do his homework, it will tell you his status at THIS POINT IN TIME.
Perhaps he will repent, and change, but right now he doesn't sound like someone you would wish to spend any time with at all.

How about you, did you get a homework assignment too?

SS

Hey Milk,
I think your comments about fears are exactly right- I know
some of my ambivalence at times about WH and the M are from
my fears of all the changes that would take place, such as
my having to move, totally support myself, adjust to being
"single" again, make all my own decisions, etc..
Thinking of all of that seems like a huge big ordeal, until
I realize all that I've already been through and dealt with,
and know that I did okay, and am still here, despite it all.
Also, helps to think about all the changes in small bits,
rather than one big change, which is much more daunting.

I agree that WH should not be talking to DS3 as though you
weren't there, and giving dishonest impressions about the
reasons he is living elsewhere. Have you talked to WH about
this, the reasons it bothers you, and asked him not to do it? If not, I think you should, and can also, in a clear,
kind, and polite manner correct WH if he makes such comments
in front of DS3 again, such as "Remember that you were the
one who chose to move to your own apartment", or such..

SS is right- DS3 will come to see things as they really are
for himself, and your consistent, kind and loving treatment
of him, including discipline and rules, will be a positive.
The truth always comes to light !

Hope the counseling goes well. It should be telling to see
if WH remembered his "homework", and what the results are.
Asking my WH if he was willing to make an effort to stop
lying to his wife would be very interesting (since he is
so like your WH in many ways) as I believe my WH has been
lying his whole life, and doesn't even realized it for the
most part. Since it is a "learned" behavior/habit, I believe
he could change, but it would take a lot of effort on his
part.

Slammed