Thanks SS and Slammed. I think tonight I will bring up several topics including WH's not telling the truth to DS3 about our M. It seems WH really does not have the ability to see the reality. The way he acts around me or DS3 now (after all what he has done and said to me) truly shows that he does not understand how big a deal what he did was.

'How about you, did you get a homework assignment too? '
No, she only gave the assignment to WH for now. She did say that she would ask me the same question (if I am willing to make adjustments to meet WH's most important needs), and if she does tonight, I already have an answer. In short, yes I am. BUT - a big BUT - only IF WH is ever going to be serious about his life and our life, stop lying, and start trying to be a responsible individual/husband/father. If he is taking the whole thing lightly, I am NOT going to waste my time anymore. WH may say that's conditional and he wants unconditional love - but I realized, after what he has done to me and DS3, I do not have unconditional love for him. Sorry, but I don't. It's very conditional. I need US to be equal partners. I do not want to 'take care' of him, as if I am his mother. If I am being busy working around the house and taking care of DS3, I need someone who will help me out WITHOUT having me CONSTANTLY asking him to pitch in. If he truly loves me, he should, shouldn't he?

Well, all of those 'basic needs' even sound like unrealistic wishes though, when it comes to my WH. He is one of the laziest individuals I have ever seen.

I'll update you on our MC.

Milk

Haven't updated yet, since we had to cancel the last week session as well. We have an appointment tonight. Will update.

I've been tempted to ask. Thanks for the update.

The title of this thread is "I may hate husband now...."
What do you think. Do you hate him?

Let us know how it goes, or if it gets canceled.

You should also tell us how YOU are doing. That's pretty important.

SS

Thanks SS. I'm actually FURIOUS.

We had a session yesterday. The idiot showed up on a motorcycle, which I had NO IDEA about. He even waved at me, as if I would get excited about his stupid motorcycle!

Now, this is the man who has been saying that he has absolutely NO MONEY to provide to his family. He has been paying the bare minimum 20% of his net income (actually less than that), and NOTHING. I've been paying for the mortgage, DS3's daycare, all other expenses AND WH's CAR. Obviously, he has money to spend on HIMSELF.

Another thing that upset me was that HE KNOWS how much I hate motorcycles, because I've seen so many accidents in the past. Especially after DS3 was born, I REPEATEDLY told WH that I do not want to expose DS3 to risk including cigarette, drugs, violent TV shows, and motorcycle. Obviously WH has very different views on these, and let DS3 stayed up late, let him watch violent movies, and now the motorcycle.

I understand that if WH was a very cautious person and he NEVER did anything illegal like drugs and DUI, if he truly has a passion for motorcycle, that's one thing. But all the things he likes seem to be illegal things or something that is dangerous. I don't know why. Anyway, these things drive me crazy.

So I asked him why he purchased the bike, and he said "to save money on gas"!!! He is a big knucklehead! Then I asked him to for now hide the bike from DS3, because he will sure want to be on top of it, and I KNOW that the knucklehead will put his son on it!!! WH refused to do so, and had already made a plan for this weekend (he will have DS3 this weekend) with his friends so that he could show off his bike. And he wants DS3 to be there. Why his needs always come before DS3's safety? DS3 already like a lot of violent stuff - shouldn't WH be concerned, instead of encouraging it??

By the time we entered the room with our therapist, the fume was coming out from my head. BUT, I stayed calm.

When the therapist asked where we are, in terms of our emotions, I said (not because of the motorcycle, I was going to say this anyway, but yes, seeing him on the bike CONFIRMED my view that this man will probably NEVER change):
"I feel that I am at a point where I need to make a decision one way or another. I have a few questions to WH, and depending on that, I would like to assess what I want to do. I do not want to keep wasting my time. It's been long enough."

WH seemed to have been a bit shocked by this statement. So the therapist asked what my questions are, and I said "one of which is related to your assignment to WH, but it's about trust. Can he ever tell the truth and be open? Will he stop lying to me and DS3? Will he start keeping his promises?" Then I told her about how WH bought a motorcycle behind my back while claiming that he has no money to contribute to the household. The therapist was very surprised, and told WH "why would you do that, WH? That would upset ME too, if my husband just goes ahead and purchase a bike, without consulting with me, especially knowing how much I hate motorcycles. That would upset me very much, especially if he is trying to reconcile, I would be very upset, because this leads to a trust issue".

WH wanted to make an argument that I have too many concerns and rules, to which the therapist said "she may, but you two are parents, and you both have to be on the same page. You can't just ignore her requests b/c they are not important to you. And like I said, as far as the bike is concerned, even if it was ME, I would have been upset, so it's not just Milk".

Then WH got mad that I asked him if he will ever stop lying to me - he said "how many times do I have to tell you that I will do whatever to gain your trust back? I already told you that I wouldn't lie last time, didn't I???" He was yelling! Then the therapist stopped him "BECAUSE you keep undoing it. You see, like purchasing a motorcycle behind her back, is in her mind, another lie". To which, he said "I never promised that I would never buy one". She said "I don't mean literally. But you know how much she does not like motorcycles. And you have been telling her you don't have money. And for you to go ahead and do whatever you like regardless of how she feels about it is like a lie. You should have communicated it with her."

I'm glad she made those points, but am not even sure if they reached WH's whacked mind. He doesn't really think, that's the problem.

Basically then he told me "well I love motorcycles, I am who I am, and I'll do whatever I want". So I just looked at him and said "if that's what you want, go ahead, it's your life but I'm asking you not to involve DS3 at this point".

The therapist said the way WH did not communicate with me and did whatever he wanted was so wrong, but since the bike is already there, it is probably not reasonable for us to keep hiding it from DS3 in the long term. I was still furious, but agreed. But she suggested that until we come up with an agreed plan how to deal with this bike and DS3, WH should not expose DS3 to the motorcycle yet.

After the session, I was SO SURE that I am done with this man. He is so impulsive and childish and irresponsible. He only thinks of his needs!

When I got home, WH called - I guess he felt bad enough (ONLY AT THAT TIME!!! It does not last too long), he apologized about the bike. But it was not like "I'm sorry I did not communicate with you and ignored your input on this". He said "I'm sorry about the bike - it was a WRONG TIMING". WHAT??? It's not about the timing! It's not like I would be soooooo excited about his bike had he waited until next month! Hello?? He said "we need to talk; we should not wait till next session". So I said "fine, we can talk". And he said he feels like I have already checked out and want to move on, but am only buying some time, which he said "he will be worse off". ?? I have no idea why he would be worse off if it takes longer, but he did not answer. I think he was talking about next year's tax. He mentioned it once before. I think his fear is that if we get divorce and the tax return season comes, that he will be faced with huge tax bill again. But does that have anything to do with our M??

And when I said that WH's primary reason for wanting to come home is money, he said "no, because if we are going to divorce, I'm going to fight all the way to get an equal share, so it's not like I won't have money". I was shocked to hear this statement from the mouth of a man who claims that he wants to reconcile! So I said "... and somehow you feel what you just said is going to help?" He said no, he just wanted to make a point that he is not coming back for money because he will get money once we get divorced.

He said he wants his family back. But why isn't he acting accordingly then? He is just not capable of being a mature, responsible man. The question is, would I want to live like that the rest of my life? And for each event (his moving out, his writing love letters to other women, his signing up for dating services, his filing for D and how he became a nasty a$$ during the D process, his getting a DUI, his repeatedly ignoring my requests regarding DS3 over the weekend, etc.), he has an excuse. So in the end, I told him it is no wonder he does not feel guilty about what he has done to his family and would not want to apologize, because he has explanations for everything. This puts me in a spot where I am the bad guy then. No wonder he is being so arrogant despite what he did.

He kept saying that “I don’t know him”, because I portrait him as a selfish, irresponsible person (well he is), and he said “that’s not how other people view me”. I said I did not feel that way about him before, but now, I’m not sure whether he has become this vicious person who only demands his rights without meeting any requirements or facing responsibility, or maybe he has always been this kind of person but he had faked it really well, whichever it is, I do not feel the man I am talking to right now is a responsible person who puts his family above and beyond anything. And that is unfortunately how his own family feels about him as well. They do not recognize WH. When I told him that, he said “I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m really sorry – that’s so bad that you feel that way”.

Still, he continues to pi$$ me off. I sent an email today asking him NOT to show his bike to DS3 this weekend, until we figure out the way to handle this issue. The idiot said "fine, but I love motorcycles and I always have. In fact, I will get a bigger one once I get comfortable with this small one I have". So there is no respect. He basically told me that what I think does not matter; he will do whatever he wants. What a jerk!

It’s sad, but now I am more and more leaning towards this idea: I simply married to a wrong person. He does not have any rules in his life, and indulge himself with whatever that brings him pleasure, including drugs. He may not have been using drugs since 2004, but the fact he had been smoking marijuana for years suggest that he does not care about society’s rules. No wonder he could care less about OUR rules and marital rules. He has grown up ignoring parents’ requests. I haven’t. We grew up very differently. Maybe he is simply the kind of person whom I would NEVER understand. He would NEVER truly appreciate the way I handle things and my rules. He will always think I am uptight.

Hi Milk- I've been following your story b/c your emotions seem to be mirroring mine:
Hate the WH, Feel ambivalent about the WH, but really don't have an love left.
I'm also fearful about the D: what it means to my future and the DD9 and DS5's future. Fear of the unknown.

My WH has some homework, too. S. Harley wanted him to call back and schedule a one-on-one appt., which he may or may not have done. I really don't care anymore.

I completely understand your see-saw emotions. You never get too much hope, but any inkling you get is quickly dashed. I, too, keep posting, even though I feel in my gut that the D is the right thing to do. I'm sorry you're in a similar sitch.

point out, "maybe that's because you treat other people differently than you treat me."

Hey Milk,
Sounds like you handled the situation with the motorcycle
very well, despite your being furious (and rightly so)
and you did a great job of bringing up some very good
points in the counseling session as well.

It's amazing to me how your WH, as well as mine, just have
absolutely no regard for anyone else's thoughts, feelings
or opinions. They just seem to go "whichever way the wind
blows them", and act on a "whim" without thinking things
through at all. I know that part of this, with my WH, is
his bipolar disorder, because lack of "impulse control"
is a major symptom of it, but it just seems like a very
basic, common-sense kind of thing. In your WH case, his
buying the motorcyle, despite financial problems and with
safety concerns when it comes to DS3 doesn't show much of
any logical thinking, and in my WH's case, its the dog he
has likely gotten (see details on my thread).

I agree with your thought that it's possible to have just
married the wrong person. I also think that people can
change dramatically over time, and especially in the case
of people with addictions, disorders, etc. this can be
the case- they either get worse over time, or can no longer
control the issues, and they become very different people
than what we knew and married.
According to most of the medical opinions and what I read, everyone is able to change; whether it be overcoming an addiction, letting go of a habit and replacing it with a
healthier one, controlling an illness with meds/IC, etc.
but the BIGGIE is always them having the desire, want, and
incentive to do it and stick with it. That seems to be where
both our WS are lacking...

I think you are doing a great job though, in setting your
boundaries, being honest about your feelings, asking very
good questions, and showing a lot of strength. If realizing
that he is going to lose a great, loving, strong wife who
has believed in him, and a great DS3 is not enough to get
your WS "with the program", I don't know what could be.

Slammed

Hi Milk -
I have been away on business.
How are you feeling?

~ FULL DISCLOSURE ~
I have owned a motorcycle pretty much all my life since I was 17 years old. I am 50 years old now.
I have never had a serious accident on the streets - though I tipped it over in front of my house once and skinned my knee.
I often gave my children rides on quiet back roads, but they have to wear a helmet. I did not take them on busy streets.
~ END OF DISCLOSURE ~

I think it is disrespectful of him to make decisions without your input. I think it is disrespectful of him to spend money without your input.

I haven't been there during any of your discussions. It's hard to know many things that are communicated with expression, tone of voice, volume and so on.

I am not seeing anything that would make you want to be with him. I am looking for something that would make him want to be with you - but not finding that either.

Do you have any common ground you can stand on to begin falling in love again? Are there good things you can concentrate on to build your love banks and create good feelings for each other?

Read again........ what you wrote about him in that last post, and tell me why you want him back.

SS

Thanks Slammed for your continued support. Our WHs have similar traits and personal issues, and I feel that you understand at the emotional level how it feels like to be with someone like our WHs.

SS, thanks for your disclosure and insightful question. This is the hard part. Honestly, I am not very sure if I still love him. Of course I still care for him, but can I ever love him the way I did in the past? This is a very big question. ALL of my friends believe 100% that my WH will NEVER change, given his weak personality, selfishness, immature thinking, etc. I believed, however, that he could change, if he wants to - till recently. The recent events and his comments seem to prove that I have been naive (AGAIN).

I don't know, however, WHY it has been so difficult for me to just move forward. In a way, I have moved forward with my life, as I have been enjoying my life WITHOUT him for quite some time. BUT, at the same time, I feel that deep down I always wanted to believe that we could RECREATE happy life together. I know it is common that even those who have completely moved on with their lives still sometimes look back and miss old days. It is normal. So, is that what I am doing?? Or, is there ANYTHING still left in our M that can be saved? Can I EVER trust WH again?

SS, I don't know why I want him back. Many times I wake up in a morning feeling VERY HAPPY to know that I am 'DONE' with WH and I just want to move on. But I also catch myself imagining our life together again. Isn't this weird?? What do I want? I KNOW WH will CONTINUE to piss me off about many things, and he will NEVER be the kind of responsible, mature father and husband I want him to be. So, the question is, would I still want him back, knowing that he will never be the person I want deep down? Because I am not perfect either? And after all, WH is a father of our son, and WH and I have spent so many years together? OR should I move on, even though I am still not 100% sure about the divorce?

Had WH has come to me, with a remorseful look on his face, and said "I was stupid, I was very confused and I still love you and I want my family back", I think it would have been a bit different. But so far, it has not been that way. He has been "okay, now I feel that I want to come back. But YOU have to change. Here are the things I WANT" - that's basically how he has been. And, YES, that attitude really upsets me.

I realize that, regardless of how he acts, I have to make my decision based on what I want and what I believe is the right thing to do for me and for DS3. This is where I get lost. Because EVERYONE has told me that there is no hope for WH. That's the objective opinion. At the same time, I do wonder - "would I be this way, even if I was married to someone completely different? Would I still feel unsatisfied with the person because everyone has some fraud, and would I always focus on their weaknesses, instead of trying to look for positives?" And if the answer to that is yes, then I should just stop trying to change WH and take him back.

I really don't know what the right answer is.

Milk

Milk,
As I said, we don't get all of what is going on. It's hard sometimes to understand everything from what we read.

What I think I see is a downward spiral. He is upset at you, he treats you badly. You get angry at something he does, you react in angry mode.

Unless you can break the cycle, it will keep going down. There has to be a way to get on the upward spiral instead.

IN these kinds of cases, it doesn't matter so much who is right, and who is wrong. What matters is will one of you change what is happening?

If he makes bad decisions, does things you can't stand, lies to you, cheats on you, and he won't stop these things, then I don't think you want to be with him.

If he means well, but is human and makes mistakes, then it is probably up to you to change what is happening.

My W had some bad habits when I came to MB. I was trying to fix HER.

After I came here, I realized that I couldn't fix her, all I could do was fix me, and hope she responded. I did, and she did. It wasn't until I quit trying to fix her, and concentrated on me that we made progress.

It was difficult, because she still does some of the things she did before. She is far from perfect. I admit that I am far from perfect too........ LOL.

We used HNHN, but the most valueable for us was "Love Busters, habits that destroy romantic love."

I wanted so badly to take the book and show her all the things she was doing wrong to destroy my love for her. What I did first was point out to her all the things I was doing to destroy her love for me.......... she responded by saying "It's not all your fault, some of the blame belongs to me too."

Once it was out in the open, and she knew I cared enough to get the book, and start working on myself, she joined me.

Sometimes when I tell this to the BS, they get upset.
I know this is not your fault.
Usually the downward cycle begins because of the A, and the dishonesty that accompanies it. Perhaps you do have faults, but they would not compare to having an A.

However............ it's still true that someone has to break the cycle, and it is usually the one that is studying relationships, and has access to these wonderful MB materials.

If you can find good things about him to think about. If you can praise the things he does well, if you can love him long enough to change what is happening, then perhaps you two can have a new marriage far better than the old one.


I'm not suggesting you do one thing or the other. If you have had enough, I couldn't fault you for not wanting to be with him.

I am teasing now..........
and I realize the motorcycle is not a direct cause, but only an indicator of how he does things, but I'm glad my W didn't leave me over motorcycles. (grin)

SS

thanks SS for that informative post. sometimes it's just hard though acting like the better person when all you want to do is lash out at them (WS) for all the hurt they have caused.

Thanks SS, and as A2G mentioned above, I guess I often felt "why does it have to be ME again, to act understandingly and change??". Like you SS pointed out, the rationale behind my feeling is that 'sure I'm not perfect, but I have never done nearly as bad and damaging things as WH has done'. It is hard to swallow such 'unjustified' feelings and take the high road.

We had another MC session on Tuesday evening. That was probably the most constructive session. I still had a lot of “does he really get it?” moments when WH made some comments, but at least I felt that WH was trying to see things from my perspective. Also, this time I realized when I was talking about how I felt when he handled situations in rather ‘untruthful’ manners, he was having ‘hmm, I did not know that is how she felt’ look on his face.

I know that it irritates him so much when he thinks I view him as the biggest ‘jerk’. I never used this word directly to him, but whenever I make comments that suggest he is not a reliable/responsible/honest/caring person, he always responds “you don’t know me”. So WH does have his own version of ‘moral’ and he wants to be a ‘good guy’. Our MC suggested that we have to talk about what I view as ‘lies’ and what WH thinks of ‘lies’, because if we both have very different definitions, we will continue to have conflicts on this matter. So I explained what I consider a ‘lie’, and indeed my definition was much broader than WH’s. MC asked what WH thought about my definition, and he said he understands where I am coming from, but frankly he is nervous because he is not confident if he can be THAT open and always tell the truth. MC and I both recognized that WH was being ‘honest’ about how he felt about my request, instead of quickly agreeing that it sounds good, which is what WH usually does. At the same time, if he thinks ‘being open’ damages the relationship (WH was afraid that if he always tells me what he wants openly I would always get mad at him and we would have non-stop arguments), that will be a problem too. MC asked WH to give it more thoughts on that, and to let me know how he feels about it and despite his fear, if he is willing to be honest with me from now on. She said it is okay for him to say “no, I am not willing to do this”, because I need to know what he is willing to do. At the same time, she told him “I’m saying this as a third party, but I do not think Milk’s definition of ‘lies’ is unreasonable. She just does not want any more “just do it behind her back, so that we won’t have any conflicts” type behaviors, and I do not think that is unreasonable.

I was talking to one of my old bosses about my new job, and then since he asked in general how my life is, I briefly updated him on what is going on in my personal life. When I said “so things just keep happening and I don’t seem to ever have a stable life”, he laughed and said “no, you never will - it’s called LIFE”. I laughed too. True, I can’t expect a completely predictable and stable life where things always happen the way I planned.

Milk

Glad the counseling session was more produtive and helpful,
Milk. At least you were able to "get down" to something
that gives you some actual information and feedback about
how WH is thinking and feeling. And, I'm glad that your MC
seems to be very reasonable and good at getting your WH to
open up a bit and talk about things.
Did it leave you feeling a bit more hopeful about things,
but still cautious ?

Nothing new here with WH- he's finished his Comm Service
so should be back to his regular job, and although OW
apparently moved out, I assume he's still continuing to
see her, and stay busy with his new dog.
I've had a busy week getting ready for my trip, and had a
job interview today, which seemed to go well.
When are you starting your new job ?

It's very true, what your boss said about life. Reminds me
of a line from a movie ("Tombstone") that I always liked:
Doc Holiday asks Wyatt Earp, "What do you want"
Wyatt says: "A normal life"
Doc says" There's no normal, Wyatt, there's just life".

Hope you have a great weekend, and hang in there !
Slammed

Thanks Slammed. I hope you are enjoying your vacation.

Gave a two-week notice to my boss last Friday, and my resignation is now official. I'll start my new job the last week of September. In the meantime, I'll go home with DS3 for 2 1/2 weeks. I'm excited.

WH left a message on Friday asking how my giving the notice went at work. Then when he called again on Sun., he asked me the same question. I don't know why he is so concerned about this. Is he trying to figure out how much I will be making at the new place? So that he feels safer that he will NOT need to give me more than 20% of his net income in case we get divorced? Or is he trying to 'calculate' if it definitely works in his favor to stay with me now that I make more?? I know it's sad I have to think this way, but over the past nearly two years, all WH could think of was himself and his finance, I just can't think of any other reasons for his calls.

I think if I take him back, the decision has to be based on the assumption that WH will NEVER change. If I'm okay with that, then I will take him back and stop trying to 'fix' him, because I cannot fix him. If I think he will continue to do things that will upset me and I can never trust him, then that will be my answer. If all WH did was a mistake - that he just had an affair where he was not emotionally involved - maybe a recovery will be easier. But too many things have happened that suggest WH has some mental issues - so asking him to change is like asking a cancer patient to get rid of his cancer. That is not going to happen. Am I still okay with him then?

I guess what I would REEEEEEEALLY love to know is that would I feel this way with anyone? Or is it really WH's personal/mental issues that have greatly contributed to our problems?? What's really NORMAL?? I know WH is not normal, but I'm sure in his eyes I'm not normal either (although he did say several times that I'm 'more' normal than he is...., whatever that means).

Milk

Milk,
It's so hard to know the answers to what you are asking.

WH does have problems.

I almost bet he had many or most of the same problems when you loved him, and were happy to be with him.

Of course the A destroys all those good feelings, and often puts us in a state where all we can think of are the bad things.

One of the things that happens, is we tend to over analyze what is going on.
Always.
For everything that happens.

WH left a message on Friday asking how my giving the notice went at work. Then when he called again on Sun., he asked me the same question.

It could be as simple as he wanted a conversation starter, or a reason to talk.

What I see as being really important is DO YOU WANT HIM?

If yes, you can take some time to find out if he can improve. (It took my W about 20 years to find that out....... and yes, I'm teasing, but only half teasing.)

If no.......... well then, you know what to do.

I think the key might just be in Star*fish's sig line.

We can't make someone else change. We can alter their behavior with threats, and consequence, but they can only change LONG TERM, FOR REAL if they WANT to change. The key is helping them want to. I have never seen this done with anger, only with love.

I have never seen anyone change permanently because of any thing but desire in side them selves. Never from outside. influences though these can help form the desire.

I don't know him personally, so I can't comment on his chances of changing. I do know my changes were slow, and I nearly drove my W crazy with that slow rate of change. I loved her though, so I worked on it.

She told me Saturday morning that she's glad she stuck with it. I'm glad too.

You'll probably get to make a decision without enough information. There will be no guarantees of happiness with him, or without him. I wish it were different, but it seems like life is like that.

Until your decision is made, see if you can find ways to get him to want to change. That will be most likely if he can find reasons to feel love for you. Are there things you can do to help him with that?

Are there things he does right?
Good actions you can thank him for?
Things you can ask him to help with, then praise him for?

I think your MC sounds like a help, but I agree with Dr Harelys Love Bank theory - if he falls back in love with you, he will want to change. If not, I doubt much change will happen.

I hope this new job goes well. It's stressful to begin any new endevor, I'm sure it will require adjustment. It can also be exciting, and interresting.

Don't get too tired. Take your vitamins, and find more reasons to laugh.

You can still laugh?
How about smiling just a little?
Little more?

I knew you could do it.

SS

Thanks SS, you really made me think. I do tend to overanalyze things - several people have pointed out. I think I try to analyze things because I want 'assurance', by trying to figure out what might happen in the future.

WH was probably the same person. We had far less stress back then (we did not own a house, we did not have our son, and we did not have that much responsibility at work), which made things easier for us, however. WH feels stress very easily - he even got sick one time from stress and he lost hearing on his left ear. Luckily, he recovered much of the lost hearing, but that really showed how he does not handle stress well. Also, each time he changed his jobs, he fell in love with someone else (they were one-way emotional affairs and I do not think most of those girls even knew that WH was interested in them), because that is the way for WH to escape from the reality/stress.

If I love him can he change this? I am not sure, because it's almost like outside of his control - unless he joins the military or something (and of course he is TOO old for that!) to toughen up, he will continue to feel stress from just day-to-day life.

I think I can forgive him for smaller issues and may try to be patient to see if he can change. But the core problem - that he has weak, addictive personality because he wants to 'run away' from problems in life - may not be treated.

You must have been working very hard to make your M better each day, to get such appreciative comment from your wife. It's wonderful. Did you understand what your wife wanted you to do/change at the beginning of your journey? Did she spell them out for you, or did you just 'get' it?

Luckily, I can laugh now. I could not last year, but now I find little things very peaceful, interesting, and entertaining, and I feel happy in most part. And I am grateful for that.

Milk

OMG. I just visited the In Recovery board and read StillHereMakingIt's thread about PA (Passive Aggressive). I also read some of the links she posted there: http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm and http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/SUGGESTIONS.html

I was totally blown away. This is my husband! He never follow through on his agreements and promises, therefore, in my eye, he is the biggest liar. And he gets mad because I view him as a liar. This is what has happened.

I am more discouraged now. Some of the questions listed in the article include: “Am I seeking intimacy from a man who is incapable of closeness? Am I expecting cooperation and compromise from a man who cannot give it? Is this man workable? Is he putting energy into behavior change or does he put his effort into avoiding his problems?” If the answers are ‘no’, the article suggests either leaving or accepting that things will not change. Unfortunately, I think I know the answers to those questions. WH will NOT change. So I have to decide either to stay with WH but give up on unrealistic hopes, or to proceed with D.

Milk

Doesn't sound good.

Can you get more information, and see if there are any helps?

Are you willing to continue counseling for a while, and see where that goes?


SS

New development:

We had an argument over the phone on Thursday. It's about trust. WH again said he thinks we should reconcile and he 'needs' to come back home. But there is no "sorry, I was wrong", or "I realzied I made a mistake, but I want to undo it" or any of that. It was almost arrogant. So I said that I feel there is a big gap between how HE feels about being honest and keeping promises versus how I define integrity. Since he brought up some examples and started explainig why he did not keep his words (basically a bunch of execuses!), I had to add some more examples to show that how this has happened hundreds of times and regardless of his explanation, how I still consider them lies. Then he got mad. And said "fine" and later sent me a nasty email. Basically he said how "unforgiving" person I am (because I brought up some cases that happened as recent as a month ago!) and he said I would NEVER forgive him. And he said that he would contact his lawyer to proceed our D process, and also threatened that he would ask him about our upcoming trip to overseas. NOT AGAIN! He filed for D right before our trip last fall, and he also filed for a restraining order. It cost me extra $3,000 just to take the trip. This is DESPITE that WH agreed to our trip.

Now, this year, I already asked him to give me a written consent to our trip, which he did. I kept the copy. YET now he is threatening that I might not be able to go home. This is ridiculous! Because I am not letting him come home easily? But he hasn't earned my trust yet! In the mean time he kept lying or buying motorcycles behind my back, etc., and he expects me to completely trust him??? And look what he just did! He said to me in his email that he is okay with me and DS3 to go out of the country. And just because he is mad, he now takes it back. This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. He does not keep his words. How am I supposed to trust him???

But I'm going anyway. If he puts a restraining order, I will leave DS3 with him for 3 weeks. If he thinks he can handle our dog and DS3 everyday for 3 weeks alone - not to mention the daycare costs each week on his own - I'll let him handle this. This is a good opportunity for him to realize what I have been doing ALL BY MYSELF for the past 16 months! Dropping off and picking up of DS3, cooking, cleaning, laundry, taking care of the dog, paying for the daycare, etc. Now HE gets to do it ALL BY HIMSELF, if he chooses to be stupid enough to be nasty. He'll have to arrange a pickup of DS3 if he cannot pick him up. If his daycare needs special supplies, WH has to remember to provide them. Also he has to give 5 different medications to our dog every day. If DS3 gets sick, he has to stay home with him. I should also demand the refund of DS3's air ticket as well.

If he does this, nothing he will say later will not matter. He will be the lowest kind. He knows that I already paid for the tickets. He knows how much I look forward to seeing my parents. He will place a restraining order NOT because he is actually worried that I may not come back with DS3. He will do this SIMPLY for a revenge of me not taking him back. Unbelievable. And we have to pay for it! How stupid is that?? And he gets upset because I don't trust him and portrais him as if he is a BIG liar and user?? PLEASE!

Milk

I can feel the frustration in your post. You doubt if he will ever see things the same way as you do. It's pretty important to you to be on the same page before anything good can or will happen.

What are your feelings about trying?

Do you want to give it more time?
Proceed with D?
Back off and wait for a while?

Does he usually cool off, and act reasonable after his anger leaves? Or does he hold things against you forever?

What are you thinking about all this now that a few days have gone by?

SS