Thank you SS for your calm, very objective comments, as usual.

I called on Friday and that time he was still upset and had an attitude, but by Saturday morning WH calmed down, and so did I. In the end, WH agreed to NOT put DS3 on the motorcycle, so I thanked him for it (even though deep down I did not feel like thanking him). Then when I asked if he has changed his mind regarding putting DS3 and me under his health coverage (since I just left my job last Friday and am not going to have my health insurance till November), he said angrily 'well, there is no option, you guys don't have any insurance right'. Even though his attitude upsets me, I calmly thanked him for that as well.

My being 'nice' must have helped him calm down. Today we talked and he asked me to be 'careful' when DS3 and I will be on vacation, so I think he will let us go. So that's good.

WH said, however, "I haven't cancelled the counseling session, but I will. We should amicably do the divorce paperwork so that we both can move on with our lives. And whatever that leads - maybe for you this means marrying someone else and having another child, but for me I probably won't marry again. I want to be able to take care of DS3 when I have him and I want to take care of myself".

And he sounds much calmer than when he was saying that he wants to come home. I think also on his end, he had strong doubt that we could get back together happily. It sounds now he has also reached a point where he feels peaceful about his decision. This DID make me sad, but at the same time, I did not want to go through the same drama we went through last year, which is for me to helplessly beg him to come home. In the end, that only pushed him away and helped convince him that it was MOSTLY me who damaged our relationship, and he could justify his actions. I am not excited about divorce, but at the same time, I do not want to bend backward to stop him because then I know our M will not last too long.

Since WH mentioned that he has to 'pay' for the counseling session if he cancels it now because there is a 48-hour-notice policy, I suggested "since we'll have to discuss legal matters, maybe we might as well keep the appointment and discuss that in front of her - it might help us to have discussion without getting too emotional". WH agreed to that, so we are meeting on Wednesday.

I do not like divorce. But I do not want to be the one to say it in the session, because it is not like I want HIM back no matter what - I do have some basic conditions I want him to meet. If I say that I do not want a divorce, he will think (AGAIN) he now has the power and may think every time he threatens me with the big D word, he can get away with things that I would not agree with otherwise.

For example, even though it is not as a strong desire as before, I still have this wish to have another child. But this is something WH feels very strongly AGAINST. If I say I want us to give it another try, WH will probably claims that he will NOT wish to have another child. This is hard for me to know that there is NO possibility of having another child. It would have been hard even before, but now that our M has been damaged so much and I already have huge problems trusting WH and loving him the same way I did before, to be honest, I am not sure if I will ever be happy to recover M by giving up all of my hopes. I don't think that will work out.

Of course, WH may not wish to give it another try anymore, and if that is the case, that is what it is. In the end, that will prove that his motivation to come home was not the genuine kind. He was already talking about how we are going to split our finances tonight on the phone, so again, I am feeling that all of these times WH wanted to come home primarily for that reason. That depresses me, but, it's better to find out now than later. If he does not have any 'love' left for me, no wonder he did not want to 'do the hard work' to undo the damage he has caused. I am sure I will still feel very sad about the death of our marriage, but in the end I will be better off finding out the truth than being fooled by his fake words again.

Milk

I just came back from my medical exam and there was a message from WH regarding the health insurance. At least he DID add our names to his coverage so that DS and I will have insurance before I get my new insurance from my new job.

From the things you have been saying, I don't see you being happy with him even if you did get back together.

The picture I am seeing of him is one of a selfish, lying, immature person who thinks of no one but himself.
Except for the insurance.

Am I getting it right?

SS

I may have given an impression that I only like him about the insurance, but certainly that was not my intention <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I was just trying to give him a credit for one thing that he said he would do and kept his words for, which is the insurance. I like reading your input, SS, because you do point out things that otherwise I may not think about. I don't know if it's the difference btw men and women or it's just me, but I like hearing different perspectives.

How I feel now is that I have been lied to all of my time with WH, and I don't know if the man I was in love with ever existed. When he was madly in love with me at the beginning, I FELT that he was trying to do anything to please me. But it did not last too long. And even then, he was always doing something behind my back. So I am not sure if all this time I was trying to have this emotional connection with someone who is not even capable of giving such intimate feelings. We did talk a lot before, but now when I look back, it was always about other people or events, and it was rarely about HIS feelings. I think I showed my emotions to him quite openly, but I do not think he completely opened up when it comes to his own feelings. Maybe he was ashamed of some of his feelings or he did not want me to view him as a weak person.

So I did love him, I still have feelings for him, but I am afraid that such feelings were all based on something that did not even exist. Maybe I loved someone who was not even WH. If that is the case, I will not be happy even if we get back together. Because how he has been acting for the past 2 years or so is NOT how the old H would have acted, but is it because H has changed or is it because H was hiding it really well and I was very naive?

Milk

This is a quote from KaylaAndy, taken from Slammed's thread -


Wow, this is so powerful. I know I am not as helpful and loving as Slammed towards my WH, but I wonder if I had the same mentality...

Milk

Wow...those words are powerful! You gotta get outta the way milkshake honey...sad but true. I've preached this time and again...they must sometimes fall. And we can't shield them from the pain they create!

Please keep a clear head. You're doing good! And I totally get where you are right now. Limbo isn't fun. It's like you're in purgatory..It's not quite heaven but gettin' kinda close to h#ll!

And yes..the affair alien is like a whole other life form. My ds once said after seeing MIB I..."daddy is like edgar...like he has on an edgarsuit and is an alien!" (scene where the alien grabs the farmer, sucks out his body and slides into his skin..very much like invasion of body snatchers)
At the end of the day, I think MB makes us...forces us to positively change and assess our selves. Many of the WS here sadly, don't do that...they have to wake up themselves. And then? If and when at the time the WS wakes up, we can then begin healing...or if the WS doesn't get it in time....we've sadly moved on already.

Milk,
Sorry that your WH is back into the same cycle of wanting
things HIS way, getting angry when you don't instantly agree
and then using the D or your trip as his "leverage" to get
back at you. Sounds so very familiar- my WH has a fit, gets
mad, cusses and basically has a "temper tantrum" like a kid,
then cools down, and either compromises or agrees with my
idea or plan instead !

I understand what you said about wondering if your H was
truly this way all along and better at hiding it (or could
be "controlling" it), or if he has changed from the H you knew and married. I wonder about this too, although there
is no way to know if WH just used to make more effort to
control himself, or if his illness has gradually worsened to
the point where he can't control it anymore. I don't think
there's anyway to ever answer than question, or to know if
they will ever be back to being the person we really knew
and loved, or are forever changed to this new "alien" for
good. If we could know that we'd sure save ourselves a lot
of time, effort, energy and heartache, for sure.

I think you do very well in handling your WH, keeping your
cool and boundaries, asking good questions, and will make
the right decision, whatever it is.

Thanks for your support on my thread too-
Slammed

We had a session last night. I KNEW that he would now say he wants D, once he finds out that I'm willing to give our M another try. It's so weird, it's like a power game where when I try to leave, he pursues, and if I sort of become weak, then he gives me a cold shoulder.

BUT, I wanted to do things differently now. I decided no matter what he says or does, I did not want to 'react' and rather tell him whatever I had in mind. A part of that is to show him some appreciation. TRUE, since he ALREADY agreed to our motorcycle issue (how to handle it), assuming our health insurance, and our upcoming trip, the fact he is following through should NOT be such a big thing, because I would have done the same thing. BUT, for HIM, I thought, it might be a big thing, because he has never been good at following through. SO, I tried to show him how I appreciate his work via email, phone, and also in front of our therapist last night.

Since I was making a positive statement, WH asked (because he thought I was going to tell her we are DONE, as we talked about it on the phone) "...so, where do we stand now??" So obviously, at this point, since he was not sure how I was thinking, he was not playing the power game yet. But soon as I said that I do not like D, he said "I think D is the only way. We should go on our own ways". It was almost comical! This time, his comment did NOT devastate me like it did 2 years ago or a year ago. Because I knew that he would say this. So when he finished, I said "... you know, I suspected you would say this now that I seem more agreeable to our reconciliation. It's funny, you are playing a power game". Later on he said "I don't think I am playing a power game, but if I am giving the impression, I don't like that".

WH also said that he had 'fallen out of love'. This, again, did not have as much negative impact on me as it would have a year ago. Guess I have gotten stronger. And if this was a year ago, either I would cry or get mad and say "fine, let's get D". But this time I did not want to react to whatever he was saying, because he does not even know what he wants - it does not make sense to 'react' such statements. So I told MC and him last night that I came in this session with the intention of giving our M another try. I am very scared, to be honest, of failing again, but I realized that without trying, you can't even fail. I do not wish to regret, because I do not take D casually, so if I don't give one more try, I may always look back and wonder how it would have been. And I told them I do not want that.

WH also asked MC if she knows of any couples who get D'd but then realized that they loved each other and get back together. I know why he asked this question. One of his SA group counseling members went through D, but then he realized he loved his wife and now they have a much better relationship. WH has told me about them several times, and I know he envies how his friend's strong 'feeling' towards his wife came back. WH is a very emotion-centric guy. He does not believe that love is also a choice.

Anyway, now I feel I truly have tried everything and said everything I needed to say. Despite all of WH's lies and my fear for getting hurt again, I told him in front of MC that I am willing to give M another try. If WH decides to go ahead and proceed with D work, I will not stop him this time. Like many people have said, God probably has much better plan for me then. Yes, I'll be sad naturally, but I will be okay. In a way, I'm interested to know what those 'new' plans are.

WH said that he realized how 'screwed up' he is, because his emotions are all over. Sometime he feels it's best for both of us to just get D'd, but then apparently yesterday morning he had a panic attack when he realized that it means he will be 'alone'. D is never easy for anyone, even for those who initiate the D process. At least I learned a new lesson.

Milk

I don't know if it's the difference btw men and women or it's just me, but I like hearing different perspectives.

I believe part of it IS that difference.

From reading, I think part of the problem between WH and you are the differences in how men, and women approach/solve problems.

I wanted to keep riding motorcycles after I married. I did research and found most accidents involve new riders that are younger.

I found that there are ways to reduce the chances of being in an accident, and ways to reduce the severity if an accident occurs.

So, I showed the stats to my W, and showed her how I was in the low risk group, and that I was doing as much as possible to be safe. She felt much better after that.

I didn't tell her "I like bikes, and you can't tell me what to do." We worked on it together.

She likes going for rides BTW. (grin)

Stats and info.
http://www.motorcycle-accidents-lawyers-attorneys.com/motorcycle_accident_stats.html

The bottom line is that she was afraid for me, but realized I had done my homework, was following the rules, and she was OK with it as long as I was careful. She could see I had greatly reduced the chance of being in an accident.


Sometime he feels it's best for both of us to just get D'd, but then apparently yesterday morning he had a panic attack when he realized that it means he will be 'alone'.

It's good for him to think about that. He should also think about you in the arms of someone else. A panic attack every now and then will be good for him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

BUT, I wanted to do things differently now. I decided no matter what he says or does, I did not want to 'react' and rather tell him whatever I had in mind. A part of that is to show him some appreciation. TRUE, since he ALREADY agreed to our motorcycle issue (how to handle it), assuming our health insurance, and our upcoming trip, the fact he is following through should NOT be such a big thing, because I would have done the same thing. BUT, for HIM, I thought, it might be a big thing, because he has never been good at following through. SO, I tried to show him how I appreciate his work via email, phone, and also in front of our therapist last night.

I'm glad you did this. Many men really need it. It sounds like HE DOES.

The secret is to MEET NEEDS, and to AVOID LB'S.
Often we are good at meeting needs that are important to US, but fail to realize our spouse feels differently than we do. We also tend to concentrate on one (meeting needs, OR avoiding LB's) but not both, when we really need balance between them.

You have learned a lot - do you feel it's helping?

SS

Milk, good for you. You set up a plan and you stuck to it, regardless of the temptation to do otherwise. I think I would find it very difficult not to get frustrated with his behavior.

You have spent time appreciating him within his own "language boundaries" and he still can't seem to stop flipping that switch. i don't know what drives people like this.

I hope this works out for you and you are able to stay emotionally strong enough to see it through. My thoughts are with you.

apl

Thank you SS and Apl - and sorry for the delayed response. DS4 and I have been very busy for the past week..., I had many errands to take care of throughout last week and also threw a BIG 4th birthday party for my son. He realy enjoyed it and still talks about it proudly. He likes it whenever we have guests in our house because the house feels less empty. When WH moved out last year, I could tell that DS4 felt the house was too big for just him, me and our dog. And there were over 30 people who showed up for his birthday party (I was shocked that everyone I invited showed up despite that it was the labor day weekend!), so he was truly happy. And so many gifts!!!

Then the following day, we spent ALL DAY cleaning up and organizing his new toys because we were leaving the next day for our 2-1/2-week trip. Well, DS4 was mostly undoing my work, but he seemed to think he was 'helping' me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And now we are in Japan. We still feel the jet-lag effect, but it's getting easier. My new boss emailed me about my new assignment (!) already, so I started to feel a bit of pressure already..., but at the same time, I am excited about my new job. Probably starting next week, I will start reading up some market information to prepare for it.

I'm glad I showed my appreciation to WH last week, even though he did not seem to be 'happy' to hear my positive comments. Maybe he was embarrased? I don't know. I am thinking more about his 'I have fallen out of love' comment since we got here. It still does not have such an overwelming power on me as it would have a year ago, but now when I think of it, it does make me feel sad. Maybe because now I am home where basically WH and I started dating many years ago. There are so many places that bring back our 'memories'. But I know that I should not let these memories sidetrack me from my 'goals' and strength. The only thing I can do and am planning on doing is to maintain positive attitude, avoide LBs, give WH some positive feedback when he does something good (even if it's small), but at the same time not to become emotionally dependent on the idea of our 'reconciliation' because that will make me weak again. I have done everything I could think of, and if this does not work out, it is okay. And DS4 will be okay too.

I will try to log in at least once a week while we are on vacation. Thank you for your support and feedback!!

Milk

I sent WH an email yesterday to give him an update on how we have been doing since we got here. He responded today with a very short email: "Thanks for the update. Please let my boy know that I miss him very much and his daddy loves him very much".

I was actually hurt to receive such a short reponse to my rather long email, and also because I got the impression that he was purposely talking ONLY about DS4, to hint me that he does not miss me at all.

September 11 is our deadline and we need to decide whether we will withdraw the D petition or to continue with the paperwork. Last week during the MC, WH told our therapist that he will try to contact his lawyer to see if we could further "extend" the deadline, but now I saw this email, I feel that he will NOT do so and rather decide to continue with the D work.

This should not affect me this much - like I said yesterday, I was getting to a point where I felt I have done everything I needed, and also knowing that this is HARD on WH as well was in a way making me feel better. Yet, maybe because we are on vacation and have more time to think about this..., his short email depressed me. At the same time, I KNOW that if WH's heart is not truly in our M, nothing will work so it is better to move on. I guess I am just being a bit emotional right now...

Milk

Have a great time !

You can afford to be nice to him on the phone, or by email. Why not? He can't hurt you right now ...... you don't have to deal with anything except words.

Enjoy your time away, have a great vacation. Don't spend much time thinking about him FOR NOW. If you let your mind rest, it will come up with things on it's own while it's resting. Write them down if they come to you, think about them when you get back.

May you find peace -

SS

Thank you for your kind words, SS. That's a good point - I can be nice to him without being afraid of getting hurt too much, because I am not dealing with him personally right now.

Milk

We just came back from a 3-day trip and DS4 had a very good time. He saw wild monkeys and even fed them! Right before the trip, I sent some of the pictures we took here to WH, but there are no responses from him. I should not care, but the truth is, I do. So now he is more leaning towards D? The deadline was 9/11, and I am not sure what has happened. I feel like it's a type of power game and when I show him a sign that I want to reconcile, he pulls back, and when I reject him he seems to push. And right now I feel like he has the power again. Not good. Any advice??

Milk

Good to hear you and DS4 are having a good time, Milk. I wouldn't worry about what WH's thinking right now. He probably thinks everything is on hold because you're out of town and he probably forgot the deadline. If he didn't, you would've heard from your D atty, wouldn't you think? Is there any way you can e-mail your atty to see if anything is going on?

It's easier said than done, but try to focus on having a good time. You need to be all recharged before starting a new job.

We just came back from a 3-day trip and DS4 had a very good time. He saw wild monkeys and even fed them! Right before the trip, I sent some of the pictures we took here to WH, but there are no responses from him. I should not care, but the truth is, I do. So now he is more leaning towards D? The deadline was 9/11, and I am not sure what has happened.

Don't spend time (especially on vacation) worrying about things you can't get answers to, and can't change or affect.
Or at least try not to. I know it's hard. I am learning to keep my mind on what I am doing, not on things I can't control. Slow, but it gets better over time.

I feel like it's a type of power game and when I show him a sign that I want to reconcile, he pulls back, and when I reject him he seems to push. And right now I feel like he has the power again.

Maybe it is a power game. Are you willing to stop playing?

"WH, I would love to be with you (but don't say that if it's not true) but right now it looks like you don't want to be with me. (short sentence why it looks that way - he filed and didn't stop it, or whatever) I'll probably be around for a while, but I'm not sure. Let me know if you change your mind, and want to stay married."

Something like that. Not that, because it's probably not how you would say it, but something like it. Then let him go.

Not good. Any advice??

1. Take a vacation.
2. Enjoy your time away.
3. Eat things you like, but not too much.
4. Have fun with DS.
5. Write WH about what you do, and send pics, but don't expect answers. Keep it simple, talk about DS a lot. Tell WH you wish he were there. (But only if you do wish that.)

6. Make it sound fun.
7. Laugh a lot.
8. Try to think up something else for me to put on this list. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Relax, enjoy yourself. Might as well, don't you think?

SS

Thanks HAF, for your continued support and understanding. I can't believe it's almost time for me to return home..., I had a dream the other day about missing my train and getting in my new work late on my first day! Guess slowly my mind is shifting to the "working" mode... How are things with you? Hope you are also managing to get some break every now and then...

SS, thanks for your very organized feedback, as always. As long as I am not getting too emotional or DS4 is not asking me about WH, I manage to tell myself "I've done everything I could think of and the rest is out of my control". I've been eating good food everyday, but being with DS4 (and playing with him) 24x7 just does not allow me to gain any weight. I love it, though, since usually I have very limited amount of time I can spend with him.

As for the power game, no, I certainly do not wish to play it. Although if I allow myself to be reactive, I can end up playing this game too as a result of emotional swings - especially the extreme anger (e.g., "FINE! Let's just get D!" type reaction to WH's irritating behaviors). This continues to be the area I need to work on.

We only have 2 more full days to be here. Hopefully DS4 will adjust back to our time soon after we get back home. And hopefully my new job will not give me a lot of gray hair!

Again, thanks for everyone's comments, suggestions, and support!
Milk

We came home yesterday. We are still getting up at odd hours, but hopefully it will pass soon. I got a call from WH and also from my attorney. WH decided to proceed with D after all, so now we are going to get divorced. I was a bit upset about my lawyer - I left him several messages (both voicemails and emails) asking him to get in touch with me through my personal email address, but he called and left me a message at my old work! When I asked him if he did not get my messages, he said yes he did, but said he has "forgotten" about it and just left me a message at work. What kind of lawyer is he??? I have not been very happy with him in the first place, and I wonder if I should just go ahead and change my attorney.

I was sad to hear that after all WH decided he wanted a D. So my gut feeling was correct - when I read his email (response), I felt something very cold. Also he did not call while we were on vacation, even though he said he would.

But at the same time, what we had for the past 6 months was not a real recovery. From the very beginning in March when he approached me with the idea of reconciliation, he has always had $$$ in mind, and he never wanted to get back with me because of love or for the sake of our family. He cannot think of anything other than himself, so it was probably something I should not have expected in the first place. He does not feel he is in "love" with me anymore, yet he wanted to come home, so it should have been clear to me the only reason is that he wanted to use me again for his own benefits.

Still I am glad we tried MC. If we did not have any MCs, I would have probably still had the good image and maintained good memories about us. Through our sessions, a lot of truth came out - including the real WH. Even if we decided to get back together, it would have been tremendous amount of work. Even then, as long as WH had the same "victim" mentality and continued with his selfish approach, our M would not have worked out.

It's just sad, however, when I look back our life together and our son and think that we could not keep them together.

I am trying to focus on positives. My life will not end here, and I am determined to make it better. I do not want to keep looking back. I'm praying for strength so that DS4 and I can positively move forward and be happier.

Milk

Milk,
Nice to have you back. Hope you were able to enjoy your trip
and seeing your and family and will make a quick transition over the "jet lag".
So sorry that WH failed to follow through with calling as he
said he would and has decided to go forward with the D.
I know you tried not to get your hopes up and thought things
through very carefully, but still I am sure it is very sad,
hurtful and disappointing- at least that's how I felt when H seemed back for a short time and I thought we were going
to head down the road to reconciliation.

Hard to know if your WH had honest motives or not- but we
know that you did. In offering love, patience, forgiveness
and being willing to reconcile you showed DS4 what love is
really about, as well as the dignity, strength and courage
within yourself. That WH was too selfish, lazy, or just
lacks the character and courage to handle it is his own fault and something he will always have to live with, so
I hope you will feel as good about it as possible.

I'm kind of in the same boat. I saw in the court website
that WH did file the initial D paperwork, but he has yet to
tell me or give me any paperwork He seems to repeat the same cycle over and over again - even went to Las Vegas with OW again over LD weekend (same as last year) and I again got a call from his credit card company checking on the unusual use of his card (same as last year). That was a sad, frustrating "deva ju" for sure !

WH may still try to "cake eat" a little now and then, but
mostly he seems to have detached and really moved away from
me and us now- doesn't try to call anymore, didn't seem
very intersted in our dog last time he stopped by (replaced
her by getting his own), and hasn't asked me to do get together or do anything as he did for awhile either.
I guess OW must be meeting his needs well enough that he
doesn't miss me or us, and all our good memories and time
together has faded out of his memory and feelings- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
so it's making it easy for him to just move on....

Saw WH's picture in the paper this week (see my thread for
update) which made me feel very sad about how distant we've
become, then dreamt about him too, which didn't help-
Just have to stick with knowing there will be ups and downs
I guess...
You too- hang in there !
Slammed