Kim -

Thanks for checking in on me. You are so right! We keep doing the same things over and over again, expecting different results! And we DO know that somewhere in our head NOT to do this. But our emotions win - because we want to BELIEVE that our WHs were not that kind of people and they WILL turn around, that we were NOT wrong in choosing them, that we did NOT lose our dream... It's really powerful.

I was at my IC last night, and she asked me "what is it that you still want your M, even though it is so unhealthy for you? And what is it that you keep setting yourself up for the hurt because you want your WH to still love and care for you?"

I know M with WH is not healthy, and that is not what I want. I'm sure you feel the same way - it's just that I keep 'hoping' that WH will 'wake up' and become H again. IC never said that she would not think WH would change or anything, but she has said that "WH is not capable of meeting your needs". Then of course I want to believe that she meant 'right now'...., not 'forever'... This is pretty pathetic, but I keep hoping one day he will change. But will he?? Also, will I be different too at that time?

For me, I think my age is making me act this way too - say, if I was only 22, I can tell myself "okay, I can wait for WH to come back, or move forward but continue to grieve for the next ten years. I will be still young, and I'm sure by then something will change, whether it's my sitch, his sitch, or both". Maybe I do not feel like I need to 'fix' this immediately (okay, that's not entirely true, probably I would have still wanted an instant problem solution, but I would not have this much time pressure). I will turn 38 next month, and feel that another dream of mine - to have another kid - is about to be taken away. This is killing me. Yet, it's not like this is all I think about. Most of the time, I just think of our M and WH. But when I try to think positively about my future, the kid issue pops up in my mind and that depresses me so much. I sometimes think about this – IF I had one more kid, would I have felt less sad? Of course not! But would I have felt less pressured about decision between ‘moving forward’ or ‘waiting around’, and also about my future? It’s possible.

There is nothing I can do about my age, so I just need to ‘suck it in’. I have to believe that if that is how my life ends up, that is how it was meant to be. And, of course, I am grateful that I have DS4. I need to look at what I have, instead of counting something I do not have.

DS4 loves music, but his attention span is still rather short, and I do not think he is ready to take any piano lessons yet. Girls and boys are so different, aren’t they? I was already taking piano and ballet classes when I was 4, and I was able to listen, follow the instruction, and practice. Girls mature quickly. Men never mature….., honestly, sometimes I feel that WH’s emotions are not that much more advanced than DS4’s! He wants constant attention, unconditional love, instant gravitation, impulsiveness, etc., and if he does not get what he wants when he wants it, he throws a tantrum. I hope DS4 will not act like that when he is in his late 30s.

Milk

I just spoke with one of WH's sisters - we were trying to catch up and also to figure out when we can get together with our kids. She told me that while we were gone, WH was staying at their parents (their parents are in Europe for 2 months), which I knew. But I thought they asked WH to 'house sit' since they have a dog and it would be convenient for him to stay home AND to take care of the dog. From what she told me, that was not the case. Their parents asked HER and her husband to take care of their dog, so after they left, her husband stopped by their house to pick up the dog, to only find out WH was already there, only 2 hours after his parents' departure. He came home puzzled, but they figured WH must have asked their parents the last minute to stay at their house. That night they received a call from them in Europe. The mother asked how the dog is getting adjusted to the new environment - then SIL said "well, you know, the dog is still at your house, because WH is there, he asked you about that, right?" NO. MIL is quite upset that WH sneakily entered their house without the permission.

Then, last week WH asked SIL where their father's car key is. She asked "why" and he said his car is having a checkup or some sort. She figured he would ask his dad about that. I am not sure if he has asked his dad about it or not (we think NOT), but now WH is driving his father's car.

One day SIL #1 and SIL #2 visited their parents' house just to 'check'...., and they found that mountains of garbage, everywhere! They were quite upset for WH for being so disrespectful towards his parents. She said it was 'disgusting'. And SIL#3 found that the mail was overflow from the mailbox - she asked "WH, don't you pick up the mail? You are staying here everyday, right?” to which WH answered "oh, it did not even occur to me to check that". By the way, since he has been staying at his parents' house and never really go back to his own apartment, the fish he bought for DS4 died. I could not believe that he has 'forgotten' about the live animals and just killed them.

SIL#1 said to me "Milk, this really confirms that there is something wrong - something is missing in WH's brain or something, and he can only think of himself. He does not respect anyone, and he is just soooooooo selfish". SIL#1 said SIL#2 is also very angry at him. WH's brother and his wife are very upset with him too.

I know I have asked this to myself before, but...., has WH always been this way, and he just hid it well and also my naiveness and denial kept it from coming out? Or did WH really change into this individual who has no regards to anyone else but himself???

It's weird, but when I think that WH might truly be insane right now, it gives me some strength to move forward. Of course nothing makes sense to him or no one can reason him - he is insane!

Milk

Milk~
Wow ! Can't believe your WH is not only staying at his own
parent's house without their permission, but also driving
their car and making a mess while there ! Definitely a show
of total disrespect and lack of consideration, to say the
least ! I'm glad that his sisters and brothers saw this for
themselves, and have acknowledged that something is really
wrong with him- and I can totally understand that making you
feel a little more understood and able to move forward.

So much of your WH's behavior is like that of my WH that
it makes me wonder if he actually is bipolar also ?
If so, that would explain why AD's alone haven't helped him
much. My WH took at least 10 different AD's in the past 5
years, none of which helped much, and after finally being
diagnosed with bipolar early this year, he was told by his Psych that AD's alone can either just be ineffective or can
also make a bipolar person worse.

I really am wondering if my WH is still/again in the manic
cycle of his illness, just because he still seems to be totally oblivious to reality and living in his own world.
In the past year he has bought an expensive house, got all
new things for it, a hot tub, a boat, and just yesterday a
postcard came here in the mail from the local Mercedes car
dealer, saying "thank you for your recent visit". My first
thought was "good grief, doesn't he have enough big bills
and expenses already ?" Just seems to me that anyone with
common sense would not be looking to buy another thing when
they already have a lot of bills, and the item is certainly
not a necessity. (plus, he doesn't even have a license !)
Realized he could have just been out looking "for fun", or
that it could even be OW looking for a car, but it's another
thing that makes me think he is definitely not showing any
"impulse control", something very common in bipolar.

Wh's said he felt so unhappy "with me and being married",
yet is involved with a OW who is very insecure, paranoid,
controlling and manipulative- things that I am NOT, and
that you'd think would be totally NOT what he'd want.
I can't believe either of them could think they have much
of a relationship considering all the lies, the cheating,
the fights, breakups, and OW's snooping, but they still
keep getting back together.
I can possibly understand why WH would do this, due to the "addiction" factor of an affair, but why OW would want
to be involved with someone with all WH's "baggage" (kids,
bills, marriage, illness, legal issues) especially after
finding out he had lied about many, many things, plus her
bizarre behavior and phone calls here make me think she
really has some serious issues herself, so perhaps that
is the one thing they have in common and why they each
keep going back ? Maybe they realize that they are both
"not normal" and that is what "bonds" them..???

I've asked the same type question you mention many times- wondering if WH been this way all along and just been able to control it better, was he gradually getting worse, or did a combination of several factors cause him to be the
way he is now ?? Seems there is no satisfactory answer since
no one can definitively answer this, for either of us.

I sometimes feel very sorry for WH, knowing that his having
this illness(es) is not his fault, and that he must be a
truly miserable, confused, torn and hurting person on the
inside. But, there is also a point where he does have to
take responsibility for doing all he can to get the right
meds, the right counseling and really work on his issues,
and I don't see him doing that right now.
He also DOES know right from wrong, somewhere down deep
inside, and has to know that cheating and lying to someone
who has loved and supported you IS wrong.
I think this goes for your WH too.

Sorry to vent- will further update on my post.
Slammed

Thanks Slammed, yes, WH continues to exhibit his selfish and careless character. He has always been a disorganized person, so frankly, hearing about the 'pig house' did not surprise me much. My SIL said "Milk, there is NO WAY that WH can get a woman. No women would like to be with a man who lives like that, and if he ever had any female visitors, the house should have been much cleaner, so WH is not seeing anyone, or at least when you guys were on vacation, I don't think he was seeing anyone". And I was thinking to myself - wait, was I one of those STRANGE women who accepted WH even though he just does not clean or even throw trash in a trash can??? His place was always messy. Although, it was not as bad, because obviously, whenever we had dates, he made sure to clean his room before I went over his place. Also when I was gone for one year for an international assignment (but I came home twice, 2 weeks each, and WH came to visit me for 1 or 2 weeks once during this time), I was terrified to come home to find the mess, but the house was stunningly beautiful! WH said he did NOT use most of the rooms because he knew that he would only mess them up, so basically he used only the kitchen, master bedroom and TV room. And he went to gym everyday to shower, so the bathroom was kept clean. Anyway, even though he is not the most organized person in the world, when he was in the relationship, at least he made some effort to keep the place clean. Now, no one really visits him (he does not have many friends - most of people we hang out with while we were together was my friends), so the only time he cleaned the house is when he has DS4. Every time he picks DS4, he says "I need to clean up". And I always wonder - well, how bad is it?? If it's only some mess, it should not take much work, but every other weekend, he claims he needs a major cleaning - so to me, it sounds like he basically does NOT even take the garbage out, and since the garbage is full, he just uses the floor and table as garbage 'storage' in the time being. Disgusting!!! And of course the garbage piles up, and he needs to clean everything up before having DS4, because otherwise DS4 will say "your place is messy (he says these things - he asked my brother why his house is 'dirty' LOL)", and he may report to me. And since now DS4 is the only one who respects and gives unconditional love to WH, he is always scared that DS4 will NOT love him as much or enjoy the time with him much.

I hated that side of WH, and often it was the cause for our argument because he does not even get up, take a few steps to put his trash in the trash can!!! Still, if it's only his ability to clean, it's one thing, and like I said, it does not surprise me much, but I don't like his sneakiness - that he did not even ask his parents for their permission to stay at their house, probably did not ask them for their car, and also that he 'forgot' about the poor fish at his apartment. He is not watering his parents' plants, he was not taking care of their mail, he just lives there because it's more comfortable and he saves money on gas, electricity, cable (he does not have cable TV), etc. I just hate that kind of tackiness. Yet, he bought a motorcycle??? Isn't that so whacked?? So he is willing to spend on himself, but not for other people, like his family??? Geez. To me, that's the ultimate selfishness. I would NOT eat, if that is what it takes to save money for my son's education, for example. WH always hated when I subtracted some from both of our paychecks periodically to contribute to DS4's 529 plan. He hated when I was doing the same for OUR retirement plans. I was like "wait, WH, it's one thing that you get mad if I am SPENDING your money on my clothes, shoes, whatever. I don't do that. I am taking the money out of our savings to put in DS4's education fund and OUR retirement fund. Why do you get upset? Don't you want to be prepared for the future?" Nop, he rather wanted to have 'fun' today...

So maybe WH is right. We are not compatible. We think differently. Sure, all of these things can be worked out if we both try to understand each other - but when WH is still so deep in the selfish mode that even upsets his OWN family, I am not sure if there is much left.

Milk

I could not finish my disclosure statement as I planned on doing so this week. This is definitely because of my 'unwillingness'. This stinks! I hate spending my 'free time' on the paperwork that helps destroy my family and dream. AND I have to pay for it too, it's just soooooooo stupid. I have heard that two of my friends who had gone through D process (but both of them ended up reconciling) got those 'good' and 'decent' lawyers. Their lawyers basically told them 'why spend so much energy and time and money on something you have built up? Why not spend the same kind of energy, time, and money to rebuild your relationship?"

OF COURSE, WH did not get one of those lawyers - apparently, his lawyer is known to 'fight dirty'. Aggh. I SOOOOOOOOOO don't look forward to this process!

Milk

I understand this completely. Even WXH's family are now astonished by his and OW's raging entitlement and selfishness.

He is so far from the man I thought I married that I can't even remember loving him any more.

{{{Milk}}}

Alph.

Wow, I have been trying to longin for hours and somehow it kept telling me my longin and password were wrong! Finally I was able to get in. Also it seems the system is very slow today - wonder if it's my PC or simply more people were trying to access MB website after the weekend.

Alph, thanks for your comment. I have been following your sitch too, and it seems your ex-in-laws are also sympathic with you, just like mine. But the frustrating thing is...., what can they do? There is nothing they can do. Apparently, my FIL asked BIL to 'look after WH' if/when FIL dies (he is perfectly healthy now, and hopefully we do not have to worry about this for a looooooooong time). FIL believes that WH is mentally ill, and each time I see him, I see pain in his face. I feel very bad for him. I know he loves me and I love him too, and I know that he still prays everyday that WH comes to his senses and our M would recover. Yet, FIL keeps seeing and hearing stories about WH that indicate he is still so deep in his 'fog' and 'self-centered beliefs' - how hard it must be as a father who loves his son! To certain extent, I understand WHY he wants to 'deny' that WH is not totally broken...., I still have the tendency to naively believe in this as well..., only to result in more hurt, though. If my son ever does anything hurtful to his own family and starts acting like he does not really care about anyone but himself..., I'm sure I will fall into this 'denial' phase. But hopefully I will be strong enough to excute the 'tough love' approach to my own son, if he does anything like WH did.

DS4 and I were over WH's brother and his wife's house over the weekend, and my SIL seems to really understand WH and also the position I am in. Because WH and his brother are very similar in terms of their personalities, e.g., low self-esteem, selfishness, laziness, drug addiction, sex addiction, etc., I almost do not need to tell her all what have happened - she just says "WH probably did this" or "WH was probably acting like this", etc. And she has a very good grasp of what seems to be going on 'inside' WH, which is exactly what has happened to WH's brother. Basically, it took WH's brother 10 years or over 10 years to reach this point. In the past, WH's brother was just as bad, if not worse, in his selfish actions. Now he is much better, and does enjoy doing 'family' activities, and has been able to hold onto the same job for 4 years now. He is much more stable. Yet, I still see many areas that remind me of WH, that I know still drives SIL crazy. So I was thinking..., it took BIL over 10 years while he was trying hard to committ to God, etc., and yet he is still a lot like WH in many ways. So what does that mean??? WH does not even read Bible - he decided that he does not want to be 'lectured'. It will take more than 10 years or WH may never become humble. And even IF he gets better after 10 years, he may still have the bulk of his issues - laziness, selfishness, and inmatureness. Maybe the only thing he might be able to improve drastically in those 10 years will be his addictions.

Needless to say, I felt pretty hopeless. Not that I had a lot of hope to begin with, and besides, sometimes I feel like I had enough, but still I can't deny that I get this sense of hope - that WH will 'wake up' one day and start missing his family. But so what, if he starts 'missing' his family in 10 years? And most likely he will still not want to do much for his family, because he won't be a hard-working individual - it's just not in his blood.

Agggh. Why, why, why,....., why did I think he was the 'one'???

Milk

Hey Milk~
Glad you have SIL who understands how WH is, from personal
experience, and are able to talk to her about everything.
Your BIL and your WH sounds so similiar- as though they have
both "inherited" the same issues and illness, whether it be
biological or issues in upbringing.

I am feeling hopeless too- I revised my Plan B letter, as
suggested by SH, and sent it to WH end of last week. Felt
a little more hopeful after I sent it, and thinking of the
things that SH had said that sounded very encouraging.

Not even a day later though, WH left a message, sounding
very "testy", and saying "Had I finished my D paperwork yet
because he didn't want to wait until the last minute, that
he wanted this house up for sale, and that he was sick of
making payments on it and the bills while I procrastinated
and did nothing".
He sounded SO cold, distant, uncaring, and it just made me
cry to realize he seems to care nothing about us or me at
all anymore. He always sounds rushed, angry, insistent and
like he just hates me and can't wait to be unattached, as
though I had done something terrible to hurt or anger him,
when I've done nothing !!
I don't understand at all why he can't at least be "civil", fair, reasonable, and act even remotely nice when he knows
how hard and upsetting this all is to me, especially while
also trying hard to find a job.

So, I am feeling pretty hopeless too. I kept hoping that
WH would "wake up" and realize he really was losing all we
had- but now I feel like he just truly doesn't care about it
at all and has managed to "shut off" any feelings he might
have still had. I feel like he's distanced himself so much
that even if he and OW broke up, he'd probably just go out
and look for someone new, rather than make the effort to
want our life back. Or, as you said, it'll take so long to
happen that it will be too late.

Will update about job sitch and more on my thread.
Hugs,
Slammed

Because, he was the one. There was something that made you fall in love with him. This is why you still have the hope that you have.....And it hurts to hope these days.

It does sound like you are getting a bit more distant from that hurt though. I guess that's what happens eventually when that flicker of light gets put out with drips of hurt.
(or sometimes it is a waterfall of hurt.....)

Take care Milk -

Kim

Slammed -

Yes, I feel fortunate that I can still talk to my SILs and BIL about WH. I am sorry you are also feeling hopeless... It is a horrible feeling, and I hate to feel that I am not in control. I am NOT in control of the situation, that is true, but when I feel 'hopeless', I feel like my life has taken its own will and I am just being thrown away. Instead, when you have some 'hope', even if the situation is bad, you can sit tight and move forward.

It sounds like your WH is 'mad' because you resent your PB letter. He does not want to feel like he is being 'controlled', and I'm sure he did not appreciate the letter. All of those nasty and cold messages he left are the result of his anger. My WH did the same thing so many times, and he still does it. Don't take it too personally, even though I know it's extremely difficult to do.

Kim -

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, I thought he was the one, but boy, I was so naive. SIL told me some stories that I was never aware of....., which actually scared me. I really did not know WH had THAT many problems growing up! No wonder he is often sooooooo detached from the reality. He had learned to live in the fantasy world where he was always safe and could pretend that everything was just fine. How hard it must have been, I feel sorry for him, in a way. Still, now he is an adult, and he cannot keep going into his favorite hiding place everytime hardship occurs. Again, though, it may take him next 20 years before he truly feels this way.

I am learning a lot too - how hard life is in general. There are so many suffering, pains, and sadness. It should not be this hard, but everyone has problems and pains. Only if we all can change our perception and learn to address problems in a constructive way, but also learn to be happy with things we cannot change - many of the sadness, frustration, and anger could go away. These days I am thinking - is it when you die that you finally 'get' it? Maybe that's when I can finally 'let go' of everything. That's kind of depressing though!!

Milk

Hey Milk~
I agree with you about "hopelessness" being a very awful
feeling ! Even though we were seperated for a long time
and it was hard on me, I functioned much better and still
had a sense of hope and possibility, right up to the point
where WH filed the D papers (again). That, and the feeling that he has really "convinced" himself that he will be SO
much happier with OW or at least without me, and the way he
has so coldly and firmly seemed to shut US and ME out of his
life have really made me lose much hope of any change.

I wake up, go all day, and go to bed each night with a very
heavy heart, and almost a feeling like a physical "weight"
on my chest which I guess is a combination of sadness, hurt,
anger, frustration and disappointment, as well as the loss
of much hope. I also agree that a lot of the difficulty with
all this is the loss of feeling any "control" because our
life is being steered by a force we can't do anything about,
and is not going the way we want it to go...

I really do try to remember that WH is not a rational or
clear thinking person, and not take the things he says or
does "personally", although, as you've said, it is hard.
I just was talking to a friend last night, who commented
about how miserable it must be to be WH and I had to agree
with that. I realize that as awful he can act on the outside
it is probably NOTHING compared to the struggle, confusion,
guilt, lies, low self-esteem, shame, moodiness, grouchiness
and "waffling" WH must feel all the time.
Of course, this still isn't an excuse for the hurtful and
nasty things he has said or done, and you'd also think it'd
be enough incentive to really get him working to find the
right meds and counseling too.

I'm still at a loss to understand how he can act SO angry
at me, as though I'm an enemy or have done something very
horrible to him. The message he left last week was before
he even got my new Plan B letter, so there was nothing that
should have even "instigated" him getting mad or upset,
unless it's just his own guilt and him being mad is the only way he can deal with it ???? I also always wonder if
him sometimes being in a bad or nasty mood has been the
result of what goes on with he and OW- ?

I appreciate what you said about finances, and I do agree
with you- it's just hard to deal with when I was the one
who had a house, car, no bills, and a pretty decent money
situation when we first met, and he had little. You're
right though- he is paying a MUCH bigger cost than just
money. And maybe, I won't have a lot, but I'll have dignity,
self esteem, and a clear conscience.

Will update on my post about job situation- I have a big
dilemna !
Slammed

our H lost so much and are so unhappy....but at least it was THEIR OWN choices that led to the life they now have

for us it was NOT our choice....it was also THEIR choices that led to the lives we now have and never wanted

at least they had some CONTROL over what happened...we had none

Very good point, Eav !
When you lose everything by your own doing, you have only
yourself to blame. For those of us who lose everything by
our WS doing, we had no choice and no control.
Really sucks, doesn't it !? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Of course, my WH would never agree that he's lost anything-
to him he has everything he wants (his own house, all new
stuff, dog, car, hot tub, boat and OW).

Slammed

yeah slammed, i guess you're right....my H might think he has "everything" now

he has a house with OW, all new stuff (i guess it's new or from yard sales!)the OW's mini-van and his truck, and a ready made family

and the worse part is....he has someone to come home to... someone to talk to about his day and spend the evening with.. and somene to hold at night

i guess they have more than we do don't they

heck...they have their life back...they've just replaced us and everything else

and here we are thinking they will give it up to come back to us

sometimes i think my H doesn't even give 'us" a second thought......liek it's so far in the past for him it's almost forgotten....but it certainly is "done"

Please remember that they only APPEAR to have everything. It's all built on lies and deceit...a crumbling foundation. YOU can still look yourselves in the mirror and know that you haven't stooped to that level.

I agree with Bringiton. They APPEAR to have everything, but they don't.

For instance, Eav, I REALLY think your WH must feel soooooooo uncomfortable all the time, knowing that he is actually still married and yet living with another woman and her kids. That itself should give him a pretty nasty headache, low self-esteem, and guilt. And I am very sure that OW is not happy at all. Everyday, they can pretend that they are happy and have everything, but this 'we are really not married, and this is sort of a fake family' must be always hanging low in their head to make them feel like complete liars and bad guys. I'm sure a part of the anger from your WH and/or OW was the result of their own sense of 'guilt'.

And Slammed, you even said that your WH does not look happy. He does not sound happy at all. He may not admit that he has 'lost' everything, but it really does not matter what he says in public, because that's not even what he believes. My WH does not look happy. He has said to me so many times before that he is 'so much happier' and 'so much healthier' since he moved out our house - yet, he does not look happy, and DS4 or his family members tell me stories here and there that suggest WH is not being 'healthier'. But I am sure WH wants to believe he is healthier and happier.

Yes, I feel it's not 'fair' just because WH wants to believe what he wants to believe, DS4 and I - well, no, more than that, the whole family (both WH's and mine) suffers. But I know in the end WH pays a bigger price. And that's not fair either, because it will be too late even if he ends up paying the price 20 years later and finally realizes the magnitude of what he has done. But I must believe that there will be good things that can come out from this too. For example, I truly thought I would not be able to survive in this foreign country without my own family when the whole thing happened two years ago. I would look at anyone and everyone - whether on the train, in the park, or grocery stores - and I envied them. Wow, they must have a perfect family, and they can stay together. Poor me, I have nothing. I don't even have a family who can support me here. Then two years have passed - I am still here! Hay, I survived. Now I know that I can live in this foreign country with DS4 alone. I also learned that many people love me, and are willing to help out. Some of the needs I felt only WH could meet, are now being met by my friends, WH's family, and my family overseas. And of course there has always been my DS4. In some sense, I feel that DS4 is getting stronger through this experience, and he sometimes shows behaviors as if he feels he 'needs' to protect me and help me - something probably he would not have exhibited had WH and I stayed together.

So maybe it's not all negative that came out. Of course, I still have this 'naive' hope that WH would 'wake up' before it's too late, and hopefully we all can retain the extra bonus we earned from this tough experience (strength, independence, a good look at ourselves, etc.) so that we would have a great combination of 'reconciliation' and 'lesson learned' to improve our M. But I realize that it does not appear that such thing will happen anytime soon, and I just have to 'accept' the reality. Yes, it's hard…

Milk

Somehow I have been having a trouble logging in the site these days - is MB getting more popular???

I meant to write more in my previous post -

Last night WH called - Thursdays are when he has his SA group therapy. So I asked "you didn't go to your group counseling tonight?” to which he replied "I don't go there anymore. I am just going to go to SA but not the therapy, so that way I save $80 a month. I've been there for two years, and that's enough, so I told them that I was leaving".

I know WH is not well yet. The fact he believes his addictions were only the result of his unhappiness in our M speaks loud that he is not well yet. Besides, he never really 'stopped' watching porn. He claims he does not 'view' porn as much as before. So what does that mean? Is it okay if he watches once a day, instead of 3 times a day? Or if he watches 2-3 times a week, is it okay?

I know a lot of guys watch porn, and I am not even sure what's normal now. But I think there must be different between guys without sex addictions watching porn versus sex addicts obsessing over porn. And unfortunately, because WH has the addiction, he just should not use porn at all - it's kind of like alcohol - if you do not have addiction, then it is okay for you to drink during the holiday season - but if you have the addiction, you should stay away from those drinks.

So WH is not well yet, but he declared that he is 'done' with his SA counseling. To save $80 a month! It all came down to money for him now. What a pity. And even though he mentioned SA, I KNOW he won't go. Why should he?? He went to SA only after his arrest because it was mandatory. Soon as the three months have passed (SA was required during those months), he stopped attending the meetings.

I used to believe that people CAN change, but now I am more and more leaning towards the idea many of my friends have said - that people do not change. Yes, they can change, but it requires so much effort and dedication. I have been trying to address some of my 'weakness', and it has been difficult. People cannot change overnight either. WH, who only felt that his problems were drug and sex addictions (AND they were 'symptoms' caused by the bad marriage in his mind) and nothing more - no wonder he has never changed, if not worse.

And WH said "I'm going to drop you and DS4 from my insurance, because I have so many expenses and need to watch out - I have to pay you CS and have legal expenses". I wanted to say "YOU chose to incur legal expenses (SA arrest, divorce filing and DUI arrest), and also while you claim you do not have money, you had money to purchase a motorcycle". But I did not. What is the point? WH would never listen or understand what I am trying to say. No one can reason him. In his mind, he is healthy and he knows what he is doing. I am the one who keeps causing him problems. What's the point of stating my opinion...

I don't know why I felt that WH could change - now I think he will not change unless he gets really sick or old and lonely. WH will have DS4 this weekend - I hope he will not let DS4 watch TV all day long, as he always does. I am upset that even though WH teaches unhealthy values (he told DS4 that 'if a woman cannot make you happy, you should be able to divorce' - what kind of thing to teach a then-two-year-old???) to DS, by law, my son has to spend time with WH. Again last night DS4 confessed that WH let him watch a movie that WH and I agreed not to show him, because it's too violent. WH never keeps his promises, so what's the point. Still, I have to tell DS4 to have 'fun' and 'love' his father. I feel like I am a big liar. The truth is, I do NOT want DS4 to EVER become like his father.

Milk

Don't worry Milk.

He's with you most of the time so YOU are DS4's role model. He'll adopt YOUR values and see WH for what he is.

My father was a serial adulterer (amoung other things!). He was usually "out". Even very young I knew this wasn't right. As I grew I discovered what my father was and why things were so strained in my home.

I learned my values from my Mother. She was there for me!

As you are there for your Son!

I have no doubts that he will turn out just fine!

Stay Strong!

OMG, Milk! I have had the same thoughts!! It is sometimes so hard to try to make the relationship between a child and a WS strong. I encourage DS's love of music, but that soooooo reminds me of his dad. I want him to be great at music like his dad is, but then I worry that he will turn out like his Dad. I know that is silly. Like as mentioned above, our kids are with us most of the time. We will teach them what is right.

I am curious to know what the SA arrest involved??? I caught my WH on hard-core porn internet sites and he said he went on as a way of "relieving stress". I do believe IF we get back together he is going to need to admit a SA.

Kim