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#1716376 07/25/06 02:22 PM
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Still early in the process of recovery, gathering up everything I can in the way of helpful info./advice, most of it from this site. Unfortunately, FWH does NOT agree with the policy of radical honesty, and of course digs up his own experts who give philanderers permission to bury, hide or suppress truth in some noble endeavor to "spare the BS more pain." I tell him it's more painful to be constantly lied to and too exhausting to imagine a lifetime of having to monitor someone else's actions. He thinks it's up to me to trust and forgive and get on with life. As if it's easy as flipping a switch or a hamburger.

How do you tackle the argument (mainly from religious counselors it seems) that it's ok for spouses to leave the past buried, particularly if it contains incidents or information that would prove upsetting for the other partner? On one hand I can see their reasoning, but I don't see how trust can ever be rebuilt or maintained if a relationship is built on a fractured or faulty foundation. I often liken it to a house – the entire structure is unstable if the foundation is warped.

Any suggestions on dealing or countering the experts who give advice that is totally contrary to Harley's? In our M it's starting to appear we could spend years "one-upping" each other on the research side of things and never get anywhere. Seems in the end it all comes down to opinion and that is totally subjective. I need better and stronger language to back up my position that radical honesty is the way to go.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts,

~Silverwraith

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I tell him it's more painful to be constantly lied to and too exhausting to imagine a lifetime of having to monitor someone else's actions

Surely you have no plans of spending your life monitoring someone elses activity...

you state your claim...
dear husband...

you believe as you do..
I believe as I do.....

eventually each of us will decide...

what is tolerable and intolerable in our universes...

you can not force some one to value honesty....

it is NOT opinion..
it is what you need to recover...
if he will not deliver..
you will not recover...

period...

correct?

ark

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How do you tackle the argument


here you are .... just married a little more than 5 months

having fundamental arguements about

(of all things)

HONESTY

here is an honest question for you

are you willing to volunteer a lifetime with a man who plays fast and loose with the truth?

If he fundamentally does NOT believe honesty in a marriage is vital ... I seriously doubt there is a way to disarm him of this belief.

Pep

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He thinks it's up to me to trust and forgive and get on with life. As if it's easy as flipping a switch or a hamburger.


do you know how to recognize a conflict avoider?

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A ws doesn't have experts, A Ws babbles. That is what he is doing. So learn to reverse babble. Of course that is after you have educated, improved and protected yourself, your family and your assets.

L.

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Thank you all for these insights...much food for thought. I hope they help others out there who are dealing with the same sort of "counterarguments" from their WS.

~Silverwraith


~Silverwraith

Me - BS - 44
Him - FWH - 45
2 1/2 yr. marriage
PA was all during 2005 during our engagement and up to the night before our wedding (2/17/06); EA continued afterwards.
DDay - 3/2006
NC - 10/2006
Retrouvaille - 4/2007
------<@

"Speak when you are angry, and you will make the best speech you will ever regret."
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The food for thought seems more like goulash or scrambled eggs, doesn't it? But when you are dealing with a WS logic doesn't always work. How sad but true.

Let us know how you are doing.

take care,
L.

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We don't call 'em alien abductees for nuthin!

There are "experts" on every topic.

It's futile to argue with some who choose delusion over reality.

Believe it or not, there are folks who will argue the universe is only 6000 years old and humans co-habitated with dinosaurs.

There are people who will strap on explosives and blow themselves and others apart.

All "experts".

Go figure.

While you're thinking it, dump this scumbag.

JMHO

WAT

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Ultimately, Silverwraith, it's down to whether you want to spend your life with a man who believes it's fine to hide things from you 'to spare you pain'. Do you agree that it's his choice whether he gets to spare you pain or not - or do you think it's yours?

What the experts say is unimportant - what do you think is right? You don't need a bunch of authorities to back you up - just your own boundaries.

You're not likely to argue him out of a conflict-avoiding mindset with the power of logic.

TA


"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
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<QUOTE: ... Unfortunately, FWH does NOT agree with the policy of radical honesty, and of course digs up his own experts who give philanderers permission to ***bury, hide or suppress truth*** in some noble endeavor to "spare the BS more pain." >>

Exactly. And you know it. There isn't really much you can do about it - an emotional escape for the unfaithful spouse from knowing that what he/she did is a dreadful thing.

It'll take years for that to go by, if ever.

<Quote: ... I tell him it's more painful to be constantly lied to and too exhausting to imagine a lifetime of having to monitor someone else's actions>


You're doing okay to state that once in a while (as long as you do so matter-of-fact, firmly, calmly, and without overtones of animosity.

And from then on, look towards the future - in your behaviour as well as words. State what kind of behaviours you expect to see, without letting it deteriorate into an argument.


<Quote: He thinks it's up to me to trust and forgive and get on with life>
Again, that's standard fare for the unfaithful spouse to say that. In reality, he broke the trust, he has to show that he can be trusted. But you won't get anywhere (other than back down into the hole) by an endless discussion over this point.

You have to be courageous - look him deep into they eye, and state that you expect complete enthusiastic honesty, because this is the path to happiness. Say so very calmly and with a smile on your face. And then change the topic of dicussion, or go for a walk or whatever.

Stand your ground, quietly, kindly, firmly. It is the path to happiness.


time to change the crazy one-sided no-fault divorce laws - ideas/opinions welcome
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Hi SW,

Just to confirm, you knew him less than/about a year before you married, and that was a long distance relationship? That's pretty quick to marry, especially in a LDR.

He was sleeping with an old girlfriend during your relationship and the engagement. He does not believe in honesty and openness in marriage.

Have you considered that he's really not the man he lead you to believe he was? It's easier to pull this off with a long distance relationship. It really seems he's tricked you. Bait and switch, fraud, whatever you want to call it - he's not a good man. This whole relationship was based on a fraud - he was sleeping with someone else.

I'm not sure you can 'recover' with someone with such low morals. He doesnt have a solid history to build upon. He doesnt have the same values you do. It's just not a match - Dru

ps: Oh, and the 'protect the spouse, no matter what' bs does not apply once the cat is out of the bag. I've read those books, too. It's an all or nothing theory, now that it's out he's got to live with the consequences. They books speak to NEVER letting the BS know anything. He already blew that.

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He should be begging and pleading with you to give him another chance, not haggling over honesty.

I think I would divorce him, and save myself the pain of going through this again when you have children.

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. . . in some noble endeavor to "spare the BS more pain."

It's not an effort to spare the BS more pain.

It's an effort to spare THEMSELVES any pain.

They don't like to protect YOU.

They lie to protect THEMSELVES.

But you knew that already, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Mulan


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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Annuled... it's only been 5 months. And, I'd have him reimburse me for any wedding expenses out of my pocket - Dru

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Dru

you my kinda all powerful vet

LOL

pep

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I was thinking of a previous post someone had that had the argument presented on why BSs need to know. Thought it might help.

Quote
"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

Standing in His Presence


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

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Thanks, Pep! You're sweet to say so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

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yezzzzzzzzz

that's so

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

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Pep knows sweet!!

(I had to say that, or she woulda kicked my butt!)

Standing in His Presence


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Lady Silver, I must admit that my first reaction is this:

This does not look good at all.

It appears that he will be playing supress the truth & you just need to get over it for the rest of your lives together-with the cosignation of religious "counselors" at that.

Have you considered switching churches / counselors?

I'll ask this too: Have you considered divorce?

I ask this because of the other element of his attitude (as explained by you)... He is leaving it up to you to "trust, forgive and get on with life". In my experience (which I admit is fairly limitted) people only stop doing something when they come to believe that doing that something is wrong. Someone that believes they did something wrong do not present this attitude...

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