For those who saw this in Bob's thread regarding my comment to Cruise about not "throwing her a bone" (the rest of you can return to your regularly scheduled programming)...

Context - it's always about context.

In this case, the context was that Cruise was trying to change the subject in the conversation we were having. This wasn't a stated desire to hear more loving things from me, this was a desire to see if she could force me to say something at that particular moment because she did not want to continue with the subject at hand. It was intended as a distraction, not as a true desire to hear something loving. There are other times she talks with me about it in a completely different way and I certainly don't make any "throwing a bone" comments.

Actually, I'm not sure those were the words I used, but the gist is the same if not. I should have thought more carefully about my words. The meaning here is "I am not going to move off topic and get distracted even though you are trying very hard to distract me."

Remember - context is everything. For instance, had we been hamming it up in a playful fashion and the exact same words were used, the meaning would be understood differently. It reminds me of the movie "My Cousin Vinnie" -- when Ralph Macchio is in the police station and says "I shot the deputy?" (or sheriff, whoever it was - but note the question mark). Of course, on the witness stand, the sheriff who was questioning him in the police station relayed the conversation to the court as "I shot the deputy." (note this is a statement, not a question). The words are the same, but have an entirely different meaning.

Cruise and I talked through this one last night. I think she understands now what was meant when I said that, but she can speak for herself on here if she chooses. Either way, my choice of words was poor.

Todd

Todd... hello.
I have a question for you... would you rather be "right' or "happy?"
I have gone out of my way to understand you in the past... and I still do...please tell me what has changed for the better with you these past 6 months. Have you spent that one day a week romancing and just being a H to Cruise?
Do you want to recover? Do you think that Cruise deserves a H that can express affection and caring?

I think MEDC is asking some very good questions.

Todd, your wife loves you- if she didn't she wouldn't have spent the last two plus years living with a man who is hesitant to throw her a bone- we have seen this for a long time regardless of the context of your comment this time. (I do think it is odd that that is what you got out of her post and the replies to her - maybe the reality of that comment touched a little too close to the truth?)

I have asked you this before, but I'll ask again- how long do you intend to punish her for her mistakes?

Wait, I forgot- that is up to God, but you are doing a pretty darn good job of that yourself.

As I told her on Bob's thread- no other BS on the site gets under my skin as much as you do. Why?

Because there is every indication that Cruise is willing to do anything you need for her to do to heal. She is willing to do this to the point of putting her own healing on the back burner.

What is she getting in return?

She is getting you, Todd the perfect, Todd the one who never screwed up, Todd the one that leaves it up to God to determined when she has faced enough consequences, Yet Todd that has punished her everyday for over two years.

Hmmm wonder who is getting the better deal?

Yet, she stays?

Either she is a martyr like we have never seen before or she loves you and wants a life with you.

Maybe this is part of Bob's thread after all- maybe that is part of YOUR problem- you have not ever forgiven your self for staying? Maybe you can't forgive yourself and therefore you are determined not to forgive her either.

one more thing- reading her post, it seems like the answer to what she asked you was important- even if you considered it a diversionary tactic.

Did you ever answer the question?

Maybe she thought that a light hearted moment would be a good time to ask it. Maybe she thought you being relaxed would be a good time.

But, you considered it a diversionary tact- was it something you didn't want to answer?

Would the truth in your answer have ruined the mood?

Of course last night when she posted it and you read how bad it sounded, you had a talk with her- justified your words, your actions. Once again, she came around to your way of thinking- once again you have her under your thumb.

You have children don't you? Do you have daughters?

I'd like to tell you a little something- children, especially girls, it seems, get a picture of God based on their earthly father.

God is a God of forgiveness, right?

How do you think living in a home where forgiveness is not practiced is going to make them view the forgiveness of their Heavenly Father?

What are you teaching your children not only about marriage, but about forgiveness?

Hi All-

Just a few quick thoughts before I respond. First of all, thank you todd for starting a new thread. I would hate to threadjack Bob seeing that he has a really good thread going and I am learning a lot from it.

Secondly, thanks to those of you that are supporting me and giving me positive words. I just want to be sure that this doesn't become a trash todd post. That is NOT what I want. What I do want is constructive thoughts and advice so that maybe todd and I can move in a positive direction. If I needed todd to be trashed, I am perfectly capable of doing that all by myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now with that said, some thoughts:
Todd said:

We did talk about this last night. I did agree that I might have been taking things in different direction than where todd was going. But I did make the comment that I don't get those "bones" thrown to me so I guess I try to get them whenever I can.

Todd said:

They were your EXACT words, todd.

Todd said:

I understood exactly what you meant by the bone comment and I don't feel it was misunderstood. Where I am more clear is why you choose to say it when you did. Thanks for the apology for the poor choice of words, though.(I think that was an apology) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

moving forward:

Thanks for recognizing this. I think todd still questions my love.

Top Rope:

I have also heard this before and todd and I discussed it last night as well. Sure it all makes sense and it does seem fair to give to BS equal amounts of time. However, my question to all of you is this...first of all is it realistic that a person could live in this state of lonliness for seven years?? Maybe there is someone out there who could do that but not me (at least I don't think I can nor do I want to for my sake and the childrens). Or is it a pass to todd and those like him to not really self examine and dig to answer their own questions???

Is it possible that if I had told todd about the A right after it happened that we would not be in the very same place?? What about those who find out 20 later?? Is their M automatically doomed and is the WS who is working and remorseful sentenced to a life of X!X! for the next 20 years if the BS chooses?? Just some questions!!

I am 2 years plus out and I am dying inside. I told todd that I am a lonely married woman. My self esteem is crap (I know his is too but that is another issue)I live daily with the rejection from him. I am supposed to do that for 4 1/2 more years if he chooses??


Another thought:
I understand things so much better then I did 2 years ago. I can see where my immaturity and dependence on my parents for my emotional support was hurting my realtionship with todd. I would like your thoughts on something-

Did I not let go of my parents emotional connections because I didn't really try (or want to)or did I not get the emotional support from todd that I needed in order to let go my them?? Not looking to blame todd for my issues but more understanding of them.

My parents have their faults and todd and I discussed many of them last night. The one thing that I can not fault them for is their uncondtional love for me and my brothers. Although it may have been given way too much and maybe allowed other things to happen or not happen. I always knew that I could go to my dad when I needed that self esteem boost that I didn't feel I was getting from todd.

I chose the words "I didn't FEEL I was getting from todd" because now I do recognize that it could have been me expecting things of todd that either were not realistic or that were there but I did not recognize it at the time. I have felt for a large part of our M and continue to feel like I really don't matter to todd. We have discussed this in the past and it was something that was said when we discussed some of the "reasons" for my A. Maybe this continues to be an area where I need to examine myself and decide if it is me not letting myself matter to todd or if I really don't. Asking myself the question, "Am I over exaggerating and being dramatic?"

This brings me to another topic we discussed last night. My dad is my rock. Growing up (and still now) I knew that I could call (in college)and talk to him about anything, especailly if I needed an attitude adjustment. My dad is I believe wise and Godly. He does make mistakes and he (much like me) sometimes makes comments in the heat of high emotion (which doesn't happen often, at least I haven't seen it). I think in looking back I expected todd to be that rock and support for me. In his defense he was young (20) like I was when we M'ed and his relationship with his father was the opposite from me. So my expectations were that todd would be like my dad. However, todd didn't have a role model like I did to at least know what a good husband and father should look like.

Fast forward to the present. Now we are both older, wiser and more mature (I hope <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) and we have experienced life (the hard way)and seen other couples with healthy realtionships. Is it that we aren't willing to open our eyes and become more like those people?? Or that we just don't want to make the effort and change?? And are we blaming the other for the changes we ourselves need to make to have a great M??

As a mother, I watch other mother's and learn from them. Things I want to do and things I don't. This is the same concept I am using in the above paragraph. I am rambling now (sometimes I do that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />) but any thoughts would be great!!

I just have so many dreams for us and our family. I want that Knight in shining armour and the M where we are in love and all that gushy stuff. What girl doesn't??? I feel very strongly that we could get to a point where we are growing and learning if WE could get out of this hole we are in.

Don't get me wrong, this is not a "forget" what happened but a "learn and grow" from what happened and better ourselves, our M and the chances for the children to have good relationships of their own. I think life is too short to cry your way through it and that is what I have been doing. And as a result I think the children are suffering as well.

I know this is long, for that I am sorry. But it sure do feel good to just get some things out!! Thanks for listening!!

Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

"Throwing a bone" is dishonest IMHO. It implies reluctance. It implies that you are saying or doing something that does not match the way you truly feel or what you truly believe. So should I be dishonest? Or would it be better to be true to who I am? Whether what I am is good or not is an entirely different question.

As to why I responded to that comment - it was what Cruise and I were discussing in person. Yes, it bothered me that she put that in her post with the wrong context. However, that actually was not the most insightful or intersting part of the posts. I pointed Cruise to Bob's post and the post on the In Recovery board from which it sprang. I did this because I found the concept of "forgiving myself for staying" to be interesting.

Keep asking, and you'll keep getting the same response...there is no "punishment" at all on my part. That is not to say Cruise does not feel as if she is being punished, but her feeling and my actions are different things.

Sarcasm suits you.

Good question. Have you asked yourself?

I think you've exceeded the sarcasm limit for one post...

Or maybe she feels she has nothing better yet?

That is why I was so interested in that topic. I'm sure I'll spend quite a bit of time thinking on that one.

Todd

This is not what "throwing a bone" means to me at all. To me it means giving me something that you know I want/need. In this case something positive. It's like the dog begging for it. He wants/needs the bone. To throw him something other than the bone would not satisfy him. I don't want lies but I do not some real and true positives. Just my thoughts.

Side note:
I was cleaning up some stuff and came across some information on "Save your Marriage" at Lifeworks Coaching Services. It said this:

As I'm sure you've heard me say many times before. Almost all affairs end. And as you've no doubt heard me say, most M that are struck by infidelity don't end as a result of the A, they end when the conditions that led to the A are not addressed. When that happens, as it does in most cases of infidelity, couples bumble around for months or years never really finding a connection to each other, not reestablishing romantic love, and not finding fulfillment in their M. Eventually they either D. or drift apart living separate lives. The high risk of a repeat A. is very high.

Even though that is the sad state of most post infidelity M's, it doesn't need to happen that way. Real recovery is possible. Recovery which is defined by restoring romantic love, reestablishing trust, and finally by forgiveness. The steps to getting there are difficult and often times painful but the alternative is far more difficult and tragic.

I feel as though our M is over shadowed by the A. We are not allowed, I feel,(by todd) to discuss the M prior and dig deep to work out things that were wrong then. IMHO things seem to be wrapped around helping todd recover from the A and not from the things that got us there. I DON'T want to get D'ed nor do I want to live a loveless M.

Just found this information interesting. It hits too close to home.

Cruise<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Cruise,

I haven't posted to you or Todd in a very long time. I don't know why I read this thread but a few things you said really struck me, and not an a very postive way. I thought I would comment on them for a moment if you don't mind. I could summarize the part I am going to quote and address as : "It is all your fault Todd. You are not man enough to be my father."

I hope this is not what you meant, but I suspect this is what you have felt for a long time and frankly this is very bothersome to me, and perhaps Todd. For along time now I have seen him as very defensive, acting like he was under attack, while you were posting that you loved him and wanted his forgiveness and love. But, it would seem from your words that you want a Dad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> In my mind this is not good, and if even part of what I picked up is being interpretted and picked up by Todd, I can now begin to see his defensiveness.

So let me address a few of your commnets.


You are not unique here, but I think your assessment is dead on Cruise. I think it has made Todd defensive because he was being constantly compared. What do you think?

Two thoughts here. 1. You should not need the emotional support that you did as a child. You parents still consider you a child so they will continue to support you as one. It is unreasonable to expect Todd to think of you as a child, therefore, it is unreasonable to think he would provide the emotional support as your parents did.

2. Todd may or may not have been supportive of you emotionally, but it is a huge DJ to expect him to do it as your folks do/did. Do you see that implicitly he is being compared to your Dad and Mom? He cannot win that comparison Cruise, he knows that, do you?


Not sure what this means, but do you understand that not only does he not mimic your folks, but that he may need your support,not blame and comparison. You are a big girl now,you should require much less support than as a child, AND you should be providing some to Todd. Life is a team sport, but you don't seem to have picked your team yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Self-esteem is not something you get a shot for. It is not something OTHER people can give you. That is why it is call SELF-esteem. It is something you obtain by accomplishing things in your marriage, life, work, whatever. It is knowing what you value and adhering to your values. Unconditional love does NOT breed self-esteem, because by definition you can do no wrong. It just breeds a sense of entitlement. You are not entitled to Todds love, he has to offer it freely, and that means he has to feel the need to offer it, the joy of offering it, and have the freedom to offer it in his own way. You comparing him to your Dad just removed several of the reasons for him to offer it.



Yup, so what are you going to do about it? What is YOUR plan to remove "expectations" from Todd? You see expectations lead to resentment AND

This is a HUGE DJ. Please read about them in the love busters section of Harley's articles. DJ's are the most deadly of all love busters, because they are assumptions that are often acted on, with predictable results. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

More interesting is the fact that he is still in the marriage after finding out about your affair on the Cruise. This would suggest to the casual observer that he does in fact have very deep feelings for you. But, if you accept that then you MUST face the REAL depth of your betrayal, and the foolish thoughts that led to it. I wonder if you have.



Excellent thought: Are YOU? Have you truely examined what your affair did to Todd IF he really loved you deeply as you think he doesn't? Have you examined how it would feel to be negatively compared to someone else by Todd on a regular basis? You might have a clue about this now, but consider before.



Your Dad sounds like a wonder guy. He sounds like a very good father. He does not sound much like YOUR husband does he? He is not supposed to you know.


Expectations, expectations founded on no data is a DJ and these expectations do lead to resentment don't they? And you often get if you get if you resent someone? You get resentment back because it is reflected from the person you have directed it towards.


Or is it that you have not accepted Todd for who he is. You have not taken the measure of his strengths. Is it because you are constantly comparing him to someone else and suggesting changes, thus reinforcing the concept that he is not good enough. And he in turn responds defensively. Is it that you are confusing role models, with the idea that people will change if they feel the need to NOT because you have compared them to your Dad, your friends, people you read about in the papers, etc. For many people comparison is the equivalent of criticism, and most people get tired of being critized.


Learning something YOU want to learn is far different from comparing soneone to someone else. I have three children and I go to great pains to NOT compare them to one another, because comparison is criticism. I have no trouble getting on them when they mess up, but truely don't want them comparing themselves to each other. It is a deadly thing to do.


Well, husbands are rarely "Knights in shining armour." Take this from a husband. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> There was once a comic that stated that marriage maybe made in Heaven, but it is lived in Pittsburgh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your dreams are killing your marriage because you are saying that Todd as he is, is not good enough. What Todd for you and your family is not good enough. How Todd thinks and acts is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. So let's drop the self-esteem crap, and just decide if you hold him in any form of esteem. I would bet he doesn't think so, and what do you get??? Defensiveness, reluctance to open up, resentment on his part, and general a man that is NOT happy.


I think you are confusing Todd's pain of finding out about the affair, with how you treat him on a daily basis. You may say: "I am a good W, I do this or that." But the reality is that you don't think he measures up to your Dad, or many other people apparently AND THAT is what is killing your marriage.

I do hope something I have said is of use to you.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I know Todd is not perfect. What I suspect is that you have made it difficult for him to want or be the best he can be.

Wow, not sure if Cruise and Todd are reading your response but I did. Great post JL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

Cruise,



It is.


You are right. These things were brought up in your threads in the past, but Todd never addressed them. Never wanted to take any responsibility for his actions and it continues today. All part of the "improper treatment" and control he seems to need to have over you. The M will not recover until the 'improper treatment" is addressed.


Again you are right. However, any time people have pressed Todd to look at his responsibility for the state of the M prior to the A, they get accused of attacking and bashing him.

There are a new batch of posters here that are expressing the same things to Todd as he has been getting in the past. And he still responds the same way. He hears someone feeling the same way he does, and seems to figure that he is right. So if he is right then he can continue to do the things he is doing. He seems to justify his actions (Improper Treatment) because of those FEW that agree with the way he feels. But I seriously doubt that those he agrees with would agree with the "improper treatment" he is dishing out. And he chooses to ignore, deflect, blow off or demean whoever disagrees with what he is "doing" (not the way he feels).

.

I know you don’t, but right now he has no motivation to stop the loveless actions (Improper Treatment); which has to end before the M can recover. And until he is ready to accept his role in the state of the M before the A and make changes, the M will not start to recover. And unless he is willing to forgive you and work to make the M better, the M will not recover.

Do you see any of this happening soon? Someone said, “The best way to determine future action is too look at past history.” What has it been like the past 2 1/2 years? What has it been like the whole M? That’s what it will probably be like in the future unless something significant happens in his life to change it.

Moveforward was right. Your children will see what Todd is doing and think “That’s the way a husband is supposed to treat his W. Mom isn’t doing anything about it, so it must be (the way I should treat my wife/the way Iet my husband treat me).”

You maybe able to live with it, but what are your kids learning from it?

I’m sorry you two are still dealing with this same issue. Really sorry.

S&C

Far be it from me to disagree with JL. He's probably right (much wiser than I am for sure).

But IMO, it seems as though Todd can do a lot more than he is to help out the situation. It seems very little of what he says or does is constructive to the M.

Just because he's not her father, doesn't mean he's entitled to say and do the things that have been posted by cruise. Todd never seems to address the questions about his actions and words.

He may have every reason to feel like he does, but he has other ways of dealing with the situation. Just like a WS has other ways (instead of an A) of dealing with a bad M. He can choose other ways to handle his situation.

To me, it's not about how he feels; he feels the way he does and has every right too. It's how he chooses to deal with it. And quite frankly it seems like he is choosing a destructive way to deal with it.

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with JL. I just seems every time Todd reads something that looks like it agrees with him, he feels justified to do things that hurt cruise.

S&C

Sorry, S&C - "abuse" is simply way off base. I am quite certain the expert MC we spent the last 2 years seeing would have called me on that long ago had he seen it at all. And our lives have been an open book to him, including the posts here. While I appreciate that you think you know what you see, just remember that you see it through a filter. The MC who sees it in raw form sees a very different picture than you.

Todd

Not accurate. I do not feel justified to hurt Cruise because I find some "support" for what I say.

This reminds me of the conversation Cruise and I had last night. We were discussing the concept that it takes the BS as long to process the A as it took the WS to process the A (I think it was Top Rope that referenced this). Cruise felt as if I wanted to use that as justification to "punish" her for another 4 1/2 years until we reach the 7-year mark (the amount of time from A to D-Day). That was way off base. I don't know how long it will take -- it could take only one more month or it could take 10 more years. I am not trying to set a clock and refuse to recover until the time is up. However, that is what Cruise perceived to be true because I discussed the same-amount-of-time concept with her. In fact, I am only trying to help her understand that it is reasonable to believe that I have not fully processed this, even though it has been 2 1/2 years. Another case where what is happening in fact is not what Cruise is perceiving. And this leads Cruise down a destructive path...

Todd

Maybe so. I'll respond after I clean my wounds some. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I totally disagree that cruise needs to put up with 10 years of abuse from Todd for a one night stand. If Todd can't move on, Cruise should. He is abusing her no doubt in my mind. I am stunned she has taken this for 2.5 years.

Todd,

Ok, I've used a different term. But I doubt that you will agree with it either. Which is to be expected. You seem to think that the way you treat cruise is ok.

But the fact remains, that you have never (on this forum) addressed your role in the state of the M before the A; and you seem to focus everything on the A and the amount of time it took for her to tell you.

Sorry, that's what I and others see.

S&C

Remember all, because Todd & Cruise are both posting here we are getting more of a glimpse of what goes on between an Xws and a BS. This stuff is NOT unique.

Now to Cruise, if you are saying what Todd wrote about having to put up with a few more years of Todd's attitude until you reach that 7 year magical mark.....you are still babbling. Why can I say this with a degree of certainty? Becase my Xws and other Xws has babbled the same stuff. When you say these things how do you think it makes the BS (Todd) feel? Do you think he wants to live that jail sentence with the WS wanting to shove it under the rug while his wounds are still fresh and aid to help him recover is being refused? Think about this and think hard. Remember you are posting stuff that many of us have already seen in our own lives. For those who haven't seen it yet....your words may take on a different POV but the reality of it is..... if you said stuff like this u r babbling hurtful stuff to your H. The question is Why!?!?!? U need to address it and I recommend you call Jennifer C to help you get your own personal recovery plan going.

Now Todd....you didn't think I was going to ignore your issues right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Ok, besides completing plan A (your self-improvements) you also need a personal recovery plan. One which allows you to let the Xws help you yet know when to throw back the babble. Now of course it abuse of any sort is not acceptable and I am not saying u r but you need to also help in your recovery and that of your W. So you both need t/b looking out for the interest of the other. Do you know where those wise words came from? Go look it up. I will tell you if you can't find it.

For both of u, what are your individual boundaries and what are the ones you have for your M? Have you ever discussed this? This is what you s/b discussing.

U've got your assignment....now go.....and have a nice day!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


take care,
L.

With whom are you disagreeing? No one has suggested this at all.

And she may. And I am sure you will be right here to blame me for that.

Time to get a mind checkup if there is no doubt about something that is not true...

BK, Just a little food for thought... as per Todd's statement (and I would like to see him answer my questions and hear Cruise's take on their counsleing.....), their MC has not expressed this concern and view of his actions. I think we need to rely on those in this situation to provide us with an accurate picture of what is really going on. I don't think Todd has been abusing her at all... I think he is letting his bitterness stand in the way of living life to the fullest. He is obviously a man that came into the M with less than a clear picture how to be a loving and caring H... her actions (and please don't define for Todd that a ONS is any more or less offensive than a LTA.. I have suffered both and can tell you from my perspective there is not much difference)certainly have not helped him find that caring side of himself.
So, Todd, please go back to my first post on this thread and answer those questions... and Cruise... has the MC at any time said that Todd has been abusive in anyway?
MEDC

Ok Todd, now chill. U R hurt by these comments. That's easy to see. The fact that u both post here will make a lot of things more vivid.

Just make sure you are ok with what u r doing and it w/b good to bounce that by a good MC or Jennifer @ MB. Ok? Then you don't have to defend yourself soo much.

Btw, I hope you read my previous post and it didn't upset you both too much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.