Good luck with your call Stoney!

I think you have earned your divorce, and your reasons listed above are very valid.

Tool would have to do some extraordinary repentence and he hasn't even come close. For gosh sakes has he even ended the affair???

As far as the Walk-Away Wife post -- its not you. Does not fit your situation. It fit mine. Your husband betrayed you.

Thanks Lexxxy and DD.

To answer your Q, Lexxxy,
YES WH has ended the affair.
Categorically.
Without a doubt.

Except he had done that once before.
Ended it.

Until he started it, again.

Sort of like a heroin addict quits for good.
Then starts back again.

Cannot be trusted.
Actions speak.

BTW, there is still phone contact, and maybe more with OW, but that's ok, since they're just friends.

(Can you hear me laughing from here?)

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Sometimes (often) you can have your marriage and self-respect, too.

This is why the answer to a determined WS is Plan B. You remove yourself from their disrespect and chaos, but without necessarily shutting the door permanently on the marriage.

And your self-respect remains intact.

Thank you Respectful, and Neak, for your words.

.....heavy....heavy....sigh....

I'd like to say I'm confused right now, but I guess I'm just frustrated.

Unfortunately, by bringing Toolman into the discussion with Steve Harley, things have not cleared up as I would have liked. S. Harley asked if H was capable of making the home a "safe" place for me, and asked same question of me. It is easy for Toolman to say, "Heck yeah, I can make the home a safe place, if Ima/Stonecold will just trust me."

I guess it may take more than one session before S. Harley is ready to agree it's time to throw in the towel. Guess he's trying to give Tool the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't help me, though.

Here I sit, completely unwilling to make one more single concession towards a marriage, and yet people are still telling me to work on it. Neak, the reason I fear plan B is two-fold.

First, given time, the acute pain of Toolman's most recent affair will fade. I might start thinking, "Well, he's not screwing the little thing anymore, so maybe I can just be comfortably miserable with him again, for the sake of the children." (Remember, I did this back in May, if you check the link I threw in about a week and a half ago.) I really know that I don't want to be comfortably miserable ever again.

Second, Plan B is supposed to be done only while there is an active affair, right? Well, Tool insists the A is over (again), so he'd say, time to move me back in and start living our miserable existence again. This A will rekindle every time the little girl gets a break from college. This A or another A will start again, now that Tool has realized that the price for an A is a month or two of misery, and ONLY if you get caught.

Tool has not and will not change that dramatically. Small changes? Maybe. Same goes for me. Why must we keep flogging this dead marriage? Why will it be MY fault if we D, even though we both made the M miserable, but Tool has chosen to have not one, but TWO affairs?

Good news is this...S. Harley asked Toolman to schedule an individual appt with him to discuss some ideas. I sincerely doubt Tool will ever get around to this, and maybe that will help S. Harley understand what I mean about the hopelessness. For now, here I sit, trapped in a no-man's-land.

Yet another......heavy...heavy...sigh....

None of this is your fault -- and if you want a divorce, get one.
No one expects you to stay in a marriage with a multiple time cheating husband. His fault he couldn't keep it in his pants.

End of story/end of marriage.
He's already out of the house. The worst is over. The kids will recover. And so will you. You deserve some happiness and peace.

You can Plan B with or without an active A, and whether or not you plan to even think of trying again.

I would recommend Plan B if there were a dismally stalled non-recovery that was causing the BS a great deal of pain, and I would also recommend Plan B if you were divorcing, but for very different reasons than the standard PB. In the case of #2, it's primary purpose would be removing you from his chaos, rather than preserving your love.

One thing is for sure: I would never in a million years recommend that you try again with someone who was not demonstrating a complete change.

Promises are not enough. He would have to actually DO STUFF, and be willing to do a whole lot more. The whole ball of wax: extreme precautions, MC, moving, the works!

Do not be snookered by promises. (I don't think you will.) The only time I would be in favor of another go-round is after he was already showing you plenty of changes.

Which is why I am such a fan of Plan B. It will either motivate him to accomplish those changes, and you will think about whether or not to reconcile, or it will not motivate him and you will move on with less conflict than you would have otherwise.

Regardless of the end, I just think you will get there more smoothly with a good Plan B.

Orchid - any opinion on this?

I know how you feel. Option 2 was most attractive to me when I entered plan B the last time. I wanted the break from the chaos.

And you'r right. He knows he gets parolled if he does a little penance honey. He does just the littlest bit to say he did some "work on himself and the M".

and unless the man is 100 percent repentant and wanting the M to work, he WILL REPEAT THE AFFAIRS AGAIN AND AGAIN...like a broken record. It wore me down! it did. The multiple d days. I felt like I was losing my mind. He lied to me so many times I didn't know what was truth from fiction.

And I came to just feel that I was resigned to a life of sadness...

And I didn't want a divorce either. But I didn't want the life I had been living.

LIVING WITH A TRULY UNREPENTANT WS IS A PURGATORY IN ITS OWN RIGHT. It is horrible.

You can't move ahead. You're too sad to want to move on. You always seem to be looking back. Wondering if YOU DID ALL YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO...FOR THE M...FOR THE KIDS...FOR THE GOOD OF THE FAMILY UNIT...ALWAYS PUTTING YOURSELF LAST AND OUT OF THE HAPPINESS EQUATION.

Sadly, it's these unrepentant WS who find the personal gratification. They've mastered the art of living for themselves. WE? We will work ourselves into the ground for the good of the M and family...We will do the right things when even they don't feel good and don't really make us giddy with excitement...WHY? SOME OF US ARE TRULY MATURE AND UNDERSTAND THAT LIFE DOESN'T ALWAYS GIVE YOU WANT YOU WANT AND EXACTLY AT THE TIME YOU WANT IT.

I'd personally begin a legal separation. With papers and agreement in place. Him paying CS. Let him get a taste of the D'd life. See if his TALKED ABOUT CHANGES he wants to make become REAL CHANGES HE WILL MAKE...not just words spouted off into the air to get him off the hook.

I'd begin moving in a direction positive and forward...and if during this time, he can 100 percent change and learn from his stupid mistakes and become a spouse somebody WOULD WANT TO ACTUALLY CLAIM AS THEIR OWN? Then YOU CAN CONSIDER TAKING HIM BACK.

But the power is yours. YOU call the shots now. NOT him. And you work on you. Begin healing you.

If he is able to somehow pull this thing off? KUDOS TO HIM.

I am not 100 percent giving up on you and the M yet stonecold...but I am about 96 percent there...

There is that pesky 4% I'd like to see the man address.

HEY TOOL...SHOW ME THE CAJONES...BE A MAN OF HONOR AND PRINCIPAL. SEE IF YOU CAN DO THIS AND PROVE ME WRONG! BE A STAND UP GUY FOR YOUR WIFE AND YOUR KIDS...

QUIT BEING THE DAVID LEE ROTH ICE CREAM MAN AND GIVE UP YOUR 31 FAVORITE FLAVORS OF THE DAY AND BE A MAN...A MARRIED FAITHFUL MAN WHO KNOWS THERE IS A BETTER WAY TO LIVE...A BETTER WAY TO LOVE...AND A WAY TO SAVE HIS FAMILY BEFORE IT'S FOREVER TOO LATE.

Or else I can give you darth's number so you two can go chasing ice cream trucks......

Or be like the boy who finally decided he was too old to play with Barbies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

SC-
Just remember this- You, and YOU ALONE, make your decisions.

You do not need the Harleys' permission. You do not need ours. Not one person could villify you for deciding to leave that chaos behind.

Just know that whatever you decide, there will be people here willing to help you do your best and work through it.

SC,

Glad you had your session with Steve. So the Tool guy was there? Good.

Don't worry about the progress. Remember this is your 1st session right? Steve made progress.

Now go tell that toolboy not t/b so flippant and say he can when he isn't. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Let him konw each time he opens his mouth and puts his foot in it (WS babble) he gives himself halloTOWsis (toe breathe). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Consider this progress. The Tool just made a statement/commitment that he can. Now you have to say whether he is or isn't. To don't be too nice and say he is giving his best when he ain't. Let Steve have that convo w/him.

Believe it or not, Tool c/b at a turning point. At this time he could easily revert to the JackWSness that he WAS. Hm..... If he does, you know what t/d. If he doesn't you get some relief. Either way, you come out ahead.

Now go gloat.... you did have a good session. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thanks everyone. I'm going to have to do some thinking. I'm not ready to do any more suffering, and I'm not willing to do anything to make my marriage better. I'll give it a few more days to see if that changes, but I don't expect it will.

The idea of going dark in a plan B will be very traumatic to the children, Neak. School has just started here, and there are myriad activities where both parents are invited, nee, expected to attend. Having only one parent attend will be very upsetting to the children. I'd probably have to stay home, since Tool would say the plan B is my idea.

I do plan to limit my contact, but we still have MC sessions scheduled with our regular counselor next week. I don't think I can do a good plan B, so it's best I don't try at all, based on how I've seen half-azzed plan B's go on this board.

JP, I'd do legal separation, but there's no such thing in florida...just divorce. WH used this "controlled separation" tactic as a method to start dating other women, so the whole "separation" method doesn't sit well with me anyway.

So thanks, all. I appreciate your input. It's hard to even keep "real life" problems on the front page of the GQII anymore, with all the in-fighting, so I really appreciate ya'll finding my thread to post to me!

stone,

When dealing with multiples (yeah, I speak from experience) I really do think it's important to ^UP^ the ante. By that I mean the conditions for reconciliation and establishing safety are strict and non-negotiable. If Tool is unable to meet those conditions (like the ones you posted by number)...that's his choice....you have your answer. My husband was....to my surprise....and after 4 years....while I don't have some juvenile level of blind trust....trust has been re-established and he has made a real turn around in his attitude about marriage.


Don't worry dawlin....I can walk and chew gum at the same time! LOL

You're much more coordinated than I am, then!!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Detached_Care

Stone,
You're accepting too much responsibility. You're listening to foggy talk.
Tool is trying to spin the tale that the divorce is Stone's fault. Tool doesn't want a divorce.

If you truly want a divorce -- stop negotiating with him. Stop listening to him.

Tool needs to come to a point where he accepts the responsibility for the affair, the state of the marriage, and the divorce.

Its pretty lame to blame you for a divorce when he has done the things he has done. A perfectly normal person would want a divorce when he's had multiple affairs, told millions of lies, and called the CPS on you!!!
Just one of those items would be enough for a divorce.

So simply stop accepting the blame.

IMO, Tool has so much work to do. If he wants to take that on, great. But you should proceed with the divorce; in the very likelyhood that he won't complete all the work he needs to do.

If he wants to be married to you -- give him a good lengthy list of what it takes. And proceed with the divorce. Hey, if he comes through you can always get back together. But in the meantime, you need the safety and protection of the divorce.

Thanks Lexxy and Respectful for insightful comments, again.

I'm feeling pretty down today (hopefully tool doesn't read this and call DCF again, to say I'm off my meds). Today was DD9's first day of 4th grade. We start pretty early here, I know.

Anyway, I was dropping her off at school, seeing all the parents I've known since kindergarten, and I just wanted to crawl into a hole. All the, "Hi, how was your summer? How is Toolman? The kiddies look so happy."

I had to smile and pretend everything was ok. See, this is where the guilt starts coming in. Seriously, do I have a right to put the kids thru the D, just b/c I hate toolman? Is that selfishness? I recently read that kiddies would prefer to be with their parents together, even if the parents hate each other.

BTW, there is a really LOW divorce rate in our town, or at least among our friends and aquaintances. The children are not close to any other kids who have divorced parents. I'm just so pissed at Toolman right now. How could he put me in this position? I feel anger, guilt, disgust, sadness and frustration.

Sorry to vent so early in the am!

Stone,

I know how you feel about the kids. That is something I have been struggling wth since I served him the D papers.

My kids deserve 2 parents in the house. I's not fair to them to not have that becasue WH and I can't get along. This is never what I wanted for them. They shouldn't have to go through this. They didn't ask for 2 parents to be like this. They are stuck with us.

I feel I was too hasty in serving the D papers. Maybe we could have worked things out and not have had the kids or us, become a statistic.

I know my sit. is not the same as yours, but the kids are the key for me too.

Do I want this for them if there is a chance things could work out for WH and I?

So far he's not interested. Living with OW, who also is 17 years younger than him, but is it a fling for him, a MLC? Can things work out?

Wish we had a crystal ball.

Hang in there, I will pray for you.

(((catgirl)))

I know you've had a tough go of it lately, and I think about your sit a lot, b/c we do have some really parallels. Hopefully, we'll both get thru this and our kids will be happy along with us.

I totally agree about the crystal ball, btw!

Hi (((((((((stone))))))))))

I have a son starting fourth this year too. Such a sweet age!! Too bad you couldn't send some really cute pictures of your children to the OW's parents. This makes me so mad!