I've been thinking about this a bit lately...in trying to understand how couples who are passionate about each other are able to maintain that long term...

I've come to the conclusion that it is the process of becoming ATTACHED that actually can kill passion in a relationship...here's how:

Passion has at it's roots the excitement of risk and adventure. There is a "high" from making a gamble and winning. Like asking that beautiful woman out for a date...any man who says it doesn't make him nervous is lying. When she says "Yes", we want to cabbage patch the end-zone (inside at least).

Since maintaining passion involves risk...and the possibility of failure...we always have to weigh the COST of the gamble. In the example above, she says "No" and the healthy man goes his way with little lost. There was a lot of REWARD for success...but little at stake.

No, looking at a committed relationship. As the spouses become more and more important to each other, the potential "loss" associated with risky behavior becomes too high. This explains why affair partner will engage in behavior that they would never ask their spouses for...losing an affair partner is less of a loss than spouse. (Of course, the irony is that the affair could result in the loss of the spouse).

For example...a woman feels sexy wearing VS for her lover, but is "uncomfortable" wearing it for her H. It is because she FEARS that her H will get a peek into her "dark side" and will reject her for it, where she doesn't worry about being rejected by the lover...he doesn't mean that much to her anyway.

So, it would appear that the key to keeping passion alive would be cultivating the willingness to take risks...BUT...making the consequences of that risk acceptable.

A man must have some assurance that his wife will not castigate him for suggesting some new "naughty" behavior.

It's a delicate balancing act...build in just enough risk...but not so much...

What say ye?

Low

LO....hate to break this to ya....but Helen Fisher has already epoused your theory <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Have you read "Why We Love: The biochemistry of romantic love"? She discusses SPECIFICALLY how the "attachment" phase of love, physically...biochemically.... impacts passion (and not in a good way). She also discusses what to do about it!

Still....how cool is that that *you* came up with the same theory that anthropologists and neurochemists have been studying!! Cool!!!!!

After reading her book....I coined my own phrase...."risky=frisky"

Hmm . . . plausible to be sure.

My theory is a bit less elegant. I think we are busy people and we put our attention and invest our limited time and resources into the parts of our lives that we feel at the time most need it. Many married people don't pay a lot of attention to the marriage because they think it is a settled issue and there are just so many other pressing concerns: kids, finances, chores, elderly parents, ad infinitum. I don’t think the neglect is intentional.

Low, just a quick aside. You told me the other day that I can be passionate in my marriage regardless of what my wife does or thinks. I thought “I want some of what Low is smoking” but I decided to not write it off as just wishful thinking. You said that I should, perhaps, leave a note for her and say something positive about her, maybe about the kids or so forth. I did. And as predicted, by you, it really meant something to her. She has the note prominently displayed, and weeks later, still tells me how good it made her feel that her husband did something like that.

I don’t get women at all.

Here is the problem I have with the busy people theory...

If it were simply a matter of neglect, we would simply stop being busy, spend more time on the marriage and all would be well, no?

No, I think we'd simply find ourselves frustrated becasue we're spending more time with our spouse but the marriage isn't improving. I would grant you, attachment could grow with more time, but not passion.

Passionate behavior requires intention. To be sure, it takes some time...but I think even busy people can be passionate.

Glad to hear about the note! Tell me...how did you feel about yourself when you were doing it? How did it make you feel about your marriage? I think these are more important...as much as the fact that she enjoyed it!

Doggonit! So I guess this means someone else has already come up wih the idea of using corn for fuel, too? I worked all week last week on that one...

Ok, so how would this fit in with the theory of meeting emotional needs? Haven't quite figured that out yet...

"If it were simply a matter of neglect, we would simply stop being busy, spend more time on the marriage and all would be well, no?"

Only if we were aware that we were engaging in such behavior. I don't think most are aware of this.

"Tell me...how did you feel about yourself when you were doing it?"

Like a fool. I felt like a 9th grade boy passing a note to the cute girl in class.

"How did it make you feel about your marriage?"

Like I often feel, I am the only one invested in this marriage. You know, i'm coming to the relazation that I guess that is o.k. to feel that way. I'm not leaving, she isn't either. Might as well make the best of things . . . siff upper lip and all that rot.

What the heck is Passion have to do with M.

To me passion is what you have in the beginning of a relationship. Just like the A of course.

The passion is what brings you together until there are real true feelings of love.

Passion is the starting line of the R but a committed, loving M is much more important then constant passion.

Of course there has to be some passion in an M the more the better but it will never be like it was in the beginning.

I know when I kiss my FWW's neck she loves it but I am sure it does not give her the same sense of passion or excitement that it dit the first time I did it.

The first time we kissed, the first time we had sex. There was passion not love.

I think there needs to be a good balance but if passion is the most important thing then a monogomous relationship might not be the greatest idea.

This is cool isn't it? I remember those silly foolish feelings...they are a GOOD thing...and women LOVE the idea that they can do this to us...



I would challenge you on this. I mean this in the best possible way, but your posts here don't show that investment...they show resignation and despair. I feel your frustration because I felt like I was there so much myself.

You're right, there's only so much you can do from one end. But...I'd encourage you to keep doing it...for your own sake. If you don't, you'll start to believe you deserve the situation your in an you'll really quit then.

Sounds like it's time to leave another note...

Remember the old song..."Don't Fear The Jester"...don't be afraid to feel a little foolish.

loworbit..

do you believe passion dies...

does it exist on its own..
or is it nurtured

does it always....die..

ARK

Ah...and this is the very position I'm trying to refute

Passion has EVERYTHING to do with a good marriage...and YES, I believe it's possible to continue to have it throughout a committed relationship.

Passion may come naturally in the beginning because the situation creates the conditions. If we learn to understadn the dynamic, we can INTENTIONALLY preserve it.

BOTH Passion AND Commitment become important in a marriage. It's not an issue of which is more important...but that a marriage is diminished if you don't cultivate them both.

No, I don't believe it always dies. Yes, I am saying IT IS NURTURED. It WILL die on it's own if the spouses get lazy and comfortable.

But we see enough complaints about lack of passion around here...
Many take the position that it's a silly adolescent feeling and not important to a marriage.

I say that completely wrong and that it's vitally important to understand it and cultivate it in a marriage.

I think the principle behind it is egocentric gratification that erodes with long time mates/spouses.

While not talking about the marital relationship, Sam Vaknin gives us an insight into narcisissm, an essential ingredient in most human beings.

Many take the position that it's a silly adolescent feeling and not important to a marriage.

I think society tries to promote this ..
by belittling marriage...

from shows like the honeymooners to everyone loves raymond..

they are ALL about belittling each spouse..

it's very very sad...

ARK

Ok...so we are what we are...how are we going to manage it?

It's easy to read what you've written and attempt to attach moral judgement to it...that narcissism is "bad" and shouldn't be fed...

But all of these so-called "bad" components are an integral part of US and deserve to be managed...not ignored or repressed.

Low this part of my statment is my feeling on it. I never said passion was not important.

My point is that Passion will deminish in some sense with time.

That is why I pointed out the firsts in an R.

If you always need that sense of passion that comes with newness then you will be setting yourself up for dissapointment.

Before I met my FWW I was never really a one woman kind of guy. I liked the newness. I liked the firsts. Then I got bored and moved on. I was only in one commited relationship by the time I was 24. Lasted about 9 months before we became friends with benefits.

The reason is I loved the newness. When I found my FWW I finally realized I didn't need the newness with her. There was more to it then that. There was comfort, love, understanding and I didn't need as much passion.

Yes I like passion, Yes I believe it is important but the significance a person places on that may be detrimental to their M.

I agree...I HATE these shows...

But there some that I thought showed a positive example...remember Dharma and Greg? Mad About You?

I understand what you're saying. There's a lot to be said for comfort and security.

But I would challenge your statement above...I don't think this HAS to happen.

My point is that Passion will deminish in some sense with time.

I find the opposite....

my love
my passion
my admiration
my adoration
for mr ark is a kabillion times more than it was when dating
when newly married...

ARK

loved mad about you....
it was adorable...

you are right...
they showed love and cherishing for one another....

not distain

ARK

See, I believe this can be true...

How do you preserve this, ark...what do you intentionally do to be passionate?