I am new to the message board, although I have read the articles associated with this site.

I've been with my husband since I was 19 [married 13 years]. He is 4 years older. We have 4 kids. As far as I can remember we have always had issues, but when we first got together, I ignored/denied them, mostly because of my age and inexperience [you could have counted my boyfriends on one hand at that point!]. From my earliest memories, he has always pressured me about sex--I was not wearing sexy clothes, not willing to spend the night, not adventurous enough, etc. I agreed because this was in fact true--I did not wear sexy clothes, would not spend the night [or live together before marriage] was not sexually adventurous enough. I had always felt insecure about my sexuality, and assumed that was the only thing guys wanted from me. Much later [after we got married] I found out that he consistently cheated on me during our courtship-mostly during rough patches- though I do not know the true extent.

He also showed signs of verbal abuse, though I broke things off when it got bad; he would repent and we would get back together. We got married after our last break-up, and by the end of the next year was pregnant with our first child.

After 4 children, verbal abuse is a constant in our household--as well as his ever present sexual demands/complaints--I do not dress sexy enough, am not adventurous enough, do not ask him for sex [note: we have sex/sexual activity twice a week on average]. Admittedly, most of the time I do not want to have sex, but do so to ensure peace in the household. Most of the time I walk on eggshells--anything I say, intentional or not, can somehow be interpreted by him 'the wrong way' and a fight ensues. I have learned to be calm, not take verbal bait, not raise my voice, and not let arguments get offtrack. He is a master of the putdown, the raised voice, the circular arguments. Others have seen/heard his verbal abuse to me, and commented to him, though this is limited to a few people. Mostly, around other people he tends to be respectful.

Oh yeah, he has been unfaithful since we wed, though by his account not in recent years. Again, I do not know the true extent of what he says and cannot be sure. He has a tendency to not tell me where he is going, associate with other women friends', and/or dismiss my concerns. When I tell him that dinners/movies with other women is simply not appropriate behavior, he dismisses my comments and gets angry with me.

He has recently become so angry at me--at my 'lack of intimacy' he calls it--that he left the house and moved in to a hotel. He has told me hwe wants a wife who acts like a girlfirend, is sexually open, etc. I have told him that is impossible given the amount of verbal abuse and disrespect he shows me on a near daily basis. I have also told him that given his track record or lies and untruths, he has lost his credibility with me.

To his credit, he has correctly perceived that I have lost respect for him and try not to deal with him. I don't ask him for help around the house [I also work outside of the house], nor do I nag/complain about anything. I have learned this just starts nasty arguments and ruin the mood of the house for everyone. [apparently I am in a withdrawl state].

So my question: can this marriage be saved? How?

Welcome, With...to abbreviate your name would be the same as the acronym we use for Wayward Spouse...WS...so I'm going with...uhm...With.

Since infidelity is part of your marriage, I urge you to post in the Infidelity General Questions II forum...more traffic, lots of help and I think, more applicable.

Have you read all the articles on this website? About The Love Bank, Emotional Needs (ENs), Love Busters (LBs) and recoverying from infidelity?

Can your marriage be saved? I don't think you want the old marriage saved...can your marriage be rebuilt into a thriving one? I think so.

How much marital counseling (MC) have you both had over the last 13 years or individually (IC)?

LA

Thanks for the response.

I did not really consider the Infidelity forum as I think the main issue here is the conflict between his demands for a 'girlfriend like' wife [his words] and my demands for a respectful relationship. He insists that I have to become his version of a wofe before he can become my version of a husband. I maintain that without the respect nothing else can happen. He says try it and see; I cannot believe what he has to say.

We've gone to counselors, 5 years apart, less than 3 visits each. In both cases he said that the counselor made things worse; I felt reaffirmed. He's mentioned he needs to go, but will not take the first step--my reminding him of what HE said makes him more defensive.

I'm stuck.

There is very little traffic in these other forums compared to the infidelity GQII one...

As far as not considering it your main conflict...I can see your perspective...and wondered about SF, which is an emotional need, and if your H using it as fantasy fodder instead of intimacy might be the main issue here.

A's are fantasies...EA and PA's...and the definition of the state of mind for them, "Entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect" seems to be a pattern in his perspective, his permissions.

Like most marriages, you have multiple issues at once...did you read the Four Rules of Marriage?

You have power...inherent and real...and I don't see where you are claiming that in your posts...you choose to take verbal abuse, his selfish demands (SDs) and to stay, knowing who he is and what he chooses to do, to react and not act...you are choosing...that's your power. Where are your payoffs? You're here...he isn't, so we usually focus on you...everything about him comes through your filter...not direct. We can't change him or you. Neither can you...only you can see, know and share what is really in you, where your boundaries are, how you enforce them, what is your goal here, specifically, and where your self-care is...

What he chooses to do or not do (IC) has no bearing on your choices, does it? You could begin IC and go for a year, maybe two, committing to getting to your power, knowing your limit, your freedom, and thriving personally, couldn't you?

LA

Thanks again for the response-I appreciate having someone to bounce ideas off of-

So correct--I am the one here [on the website]and this is all coming through my perspective. Also correct-since I am still here [locationally] I am 'taking it' even though I don't believe the garbage he spews at me, and I actually do understand how the issues come together in our marriage. I cannot change him, which is largely why I ignore him and am largely independent [though I do 'make peace' sexually]. I have 4 kids and ultimately am torn between what is best for them and what is best for me. This is not a financial issue--I work outside the home and the equity in our home [should I have to sell it given a divorce] would allow me independence, albeit scaled back. I've accepted that I don't have a husband who is good for me, but i'm still trying to decipher whether or not he is good for the kids.

Thus the question--is saving the marriage a possibility? I cannot/will not become his fantasy figure and i'm not at all convinced that doing so would improve the marriage [here are the multiple issues once again]. In fact, I recently offered to do what he asked, provided he did something for me--go to counseling. His response was that he did not believe I was sincere--my efforts would not be sincere--so he would not comply. I think/thought he just squirmed out of it.

What I have noticed is that the more I dont give in to his 'demands' for immediate and unilaterial change, the higher the stakes become--from arguments, to leaving home for a few days. It seems to me like he is trying to bully me by doing this, so I just stand firm.

I do need to see a councelor if only to talk to someone regularly about this and unleash some of the stress that has built up. He would benefit on many levels as well, but squirms out of it.

So can I really meet his needs by doing as he says, or is this beyond me?

With,

Is saving the marriage a possibility? Yes. Is it dependent on who your H is, good for you or not? I don't believe in that, but maybe other posters can help you if that is your belief. I believe in looking at what I can control...my stuff...my beliefs, thoughts, choices, actions, words, perspectives and perceptions. I believe in asking myself about my part of the marriage.

Sounds to me like you know you are two separate and equal people...that you know what is yours, your choices, and what is his, and his choices. This is my definition of respect. Knowing what is within your control (only you) and your limits (can't control or be controlled by anyone else). Influence, which all humans have, is not control--we can limit, erase or allow others' influence...still within our realm of choice.

Let's talk about ENs...because there are many, and doing the questionnaires seemed to help me see my abstract needs behind the concrete actions I wanted.

SF can represent a lot of things...acceptance, appreciation, admiration, security, commitment...ingredients of connection. Breaking it down into those areas, you may better see and be able to state why his scenario is not what you want...if SF to you is feeling accepted (desired), then pretending to be someone else feels like eliminating that acceptance, wouldn't it? Same with admiration, security and commitment...if you're not being you, none of those ENs are being met within SF, would they?

If you were more secure in having those ENs met by him, would doing what he wants one time...or once a month, feel any different for you?

Those same ENs are met in many different ways...words of affirmation, acts of service, gifts, conversation, attention, RC...many during the 15 hours of undivided attention (UA) that Harley promotes.

You stated very well how you saw SF...you once believed it was the only thing guys wanted from you...which negated the rest of you...your emotional, mental and spiritual bodies...do you now choose to believe SF can embrace all of those? What statement do you make within yourself in SF with your H?

I believe LBs are of primary importance in all relationships. Our Love Banks can be filled with deposits from having our ENs met...and one LB can withdraw 20 of them. His verbal and emotional abuse are huge LBs...the magnitude of how many withdrawals each makes may be more, from your bank. What if you looked at your current situation as him asking for a large deposit from you, one you cannot make unless you are enthusiastic, and a large part of what you mean by respect is that your love bank is low; hence, you saying, "If we can work no meeting other ENs right now, get our levels up in our accounts, then I may feel very different about your request?

Could that be what you're asking?

Love Busters -- Selfish Demands (SD), Angry Outbursts (AO), Disrespectful Judgments (DJ), Lying and Independent Behaviors (IB). If you chose to make your goal safe communication, (which would mean eliminating these LBs), building intimacy, and filling each other's love banks, would your marriage look very different? Your thoughts on leaving the marriage seems limited to me...as if his focus has limited yours...which we know can't be unless we allow it to...and I'm asking you if you want to widen or move your focus to get to the answer you most want.

As for your children...exampling them how marriage can work...your half of it, I believe, is the best lesson we give our children. It is intensified in adversity. What they learn about marriage, I believe, affects every part of their lives. If we show them a battle, they may then battle their emotions or feel attacked; if we show them a negotiation, then they may feel love must be negotiated, earned by actions, and the same way with punishment; if we show them it is a choice, they will learn that they choose to love and do loving acts...all up to us and what we believe and choose to do from our beliefs.

Whenever a poster asks, "Can this marriage be saved? Is it worth it?" I believe the most beneficial goal they can make is to strive for clarity of their situation...to learn a lot about how relationships really work, their part, standards and boundaries, and become clear on what is, separate from what they wish it to be.

Getting clear on my own LBs, wishful thinking, knowing I was whole, my power and limit, changed my marriage...by me changing me. That's where I come from when I post. Previously, I saw my marriage as being done to; my part striving to earn a better through being better, being good enough...this was looped thinking and learning to break it and really see my choices clearly has made all the difference.

"anything I say, intentional or not, can somehow be interpreted by him 'the wrong way' and a fight ensues."

Here would be a subtle point of clarity...he will perceive however he chooses...you would have to choose to fight for it to ensue. Your choice not to, rather, to listen and repeat, for clear communication, is yours. Not conflict. Not a fight. Respectful. I used the rule that whatever you crave most from others is what you are least giving...that was like a blow to my gut...until I really got it. Demonstrating that you know what is yours and what is only his through respectful communication...handing back what is his and not DJing...could change your marriage today, I believe.

LA

Thanks again for the response.

I agreee that the LB is of prime importance; however, my H doesn't. I see the LB as a 'real time' sort of thing. My H says that if I do what he wants, sincerely, then he will try to fulfil my needs. There is no recognition on his part that this CANNOT be done unilaterally. I read through Dr. H's columns on sex/desire and agree with you that it would just not be me [the true me].

I think I perceive from your response that the children benefit if they can at least see how things 'should' be done, even if one sided? So if I do act respectfully, don't raise my voice, etc., that will come through to them? I hope so.

Is is a DJ to think that saying/doing soemthing will trigger a nasty response from H? When I stated that an argument can ensue if I say something he perceives in the wrong way, I did not mean to imply that I argue with him. I stay focused on the discussion, don't raise my voice, don't resort to insults, or bringing up past baggage. I try very hard to keep the true focus on the discussion, but quite honestly it is tiring work when I consistently has to bring the conversation back, tell H not to call me names/speak to me in a partciular fashion. The only sign of sucess I have is that he abruptly drops the conversation when he sees that it won't go where he wants to take it. Nothing gets resolved this way however; thus a standstill.

I'm glad for the sounding board, but realize that i'm the one who will have to do most of the heavy lifting, with or without him. The trick--which you point out--is to remain true to myself.

Yes, it is a DJ to assume or mindread...even with a great track record...and it locks us into thinking what will happen, which can contribute to making it happen...

Finding what we do under our own radar is essential.

Also, if you choose what you do or say based on possible response, would you be betraying yourself, before a word is spoken or an action taken? Would that make you under another person's control...their possible response determing your life?

If you are trying very hard to keep your focus on the discussion, that's respectful. If you are trying very hard to keep his focus on track...what would you now call that?

O&H statements aren't discussions...to begin with...they are you disclosing how you think, feel and believe...like self-exploration shared...great way to inject respect from your part into the marriage.

When your H chooses to react in a way which crosses your boundary of respect...defines who you are, what you are doing...then your choice is to enforce the boundary...stating, then removing yourself from the discussion. Now, what you have as a boundary, you must also have as a standard for yourself...balance. If your H says, "I hate that color." Listen and repeat. That's his opinion and he's sharing.

Enmeshment in marriage is prevalent...not knowing where you end and he begins...you can hear a lot of statements which feel directly personal, about you, when they are not...correcting the phrasing in your mind...sticking a hopper on your head...is how you get to the respectful part of knowing what is yours and what is his...

Don't make yourself tired...boundary enforcements...he calls you a name...state that is abusive and if he does it again, you'll remove yourself from the conversation...does it again, you remove yourself from the room...does it again, from the house...and state for how long. When you feel fear jump up, state it, "I am feeling too afraid to continue listening right now. I'll be back in half-an hour."

Upping your honesty, teaching yourself to stay within yourelf, your own boundaries, around you...and not attempting to control what you can't (which adds greatly to your emotions...informing you of frustration, anger, pain and fear from attempting to do so)...is the success you're looking for...when you look at you. Not H's response. How can your success be where you have no control?

90% of marital conflicts are to be solved...but to be understood. Going from enmeshment to separate and equal, injecting respect...helps clear up what is a conflict, which requires resolution...and what is to be acknowledged and understood...not acted upon.

True to yourself is a lot of vigilance of you...care of your thoughts, feelings and beliefs...knowing what you're feeling and where those feelings are coming from...it is not heavy-lifting going inward...it is heavy-lifting keeping your routine focus off your H and on yourself. Like polarity of magnets for me...

Thank you for being here...you're not alone or crazy, I promise.

LA