IKWYM

((((TA))))

put your own oxygen mask in place before you attempt to help others

the safety of the rescuer has priority over the safety of the victim ... always

I ordered this T-shirt after reading this thread...

Thank You Pep...I just really needed this...You are appreciated...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

that's a crazy shirt!

LOL

I'm a crazy gal! Don'cha'know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You girls (and guys) just made me cry. Thanks. I love you all.

I could get into a whole lot of philosophical and even biblical debate on this subject if I had the time.

Since I don't, I will condense.

If AJ had made a permanent break with our home, abandoned our children, married his [***** -might as well censor myself, even though that word is in the Bible], and had more children, and then turned around and cheated on her, how would I feel to have her appear on this forum, begging for help to save her 'marriage'?

It makes me ill to think of it.

I bear JJ no personal ill will, and have not followed this at all, but what about do unto others, and how would any of you feel if this was your OP? Because sad as it is for the children, JJ will always be somebody's OW.

me too

Pep

This is not the first time an affair-marriage spouse has turned up asking how to MB-ize their in-the-toilet relationship...

I recall one who was also a regular on TOW ... her name was something like pinkpaige.
I had some interesting discussions with her ... enough for me to gradually pull out of her that she still had the basic OW-mind-set ...

which is

"adultery is bad if it does not turn out happily in my favor"

NEAK

I suspect there are quite a few affair-marriage people already posting on MB ... but who keep it to themselves...

look for strange-alien-speak that almost always returns the focus towards "who is to blame" ... and seems to hop from crisis to crisis with no appreciable learning curve

look for someone who often encourages the BS to cough up quick forgiveness which seems premature for the circumstances

and when someone says the relationship was "meant to be" , or "was not meant to be" .... that always makes the little hairs on my neck stand up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Ahhhhhhh. Welly intellessing (as my grandfather always says).

You are probably right. If it were me, I would probably not tell either, and just hope/believe I would beat the odds.

Thanks for the cliff notes of "How to Recognize an Alien 101". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Excellent posts, Pep. Thanks for starting this thread and injecting some much needed sanity into this discussion. I have been traveling all week with limited access to the computer but have tried to keep up somewhat. I agree very much that forgiveness is required once repentence takes place, but am certainly not clear or decided on what repentance would look like in such a case. What a very difficult situation.

hey there Mel

like I said on the other thread ....

I don't have the answer ...

but I do leave room at the table for the answer ... should it show up!

On another thread the question was asked what comes first, a change in behaviour or a change in belief?



What if JJ was not able to change her thinking or behavior prior to this new crisis in her life because her beliefs had not changed until she felt the pain herself.

Before my FWW's A, I did not condone A's but I didn't realize their hurt and affects on people. I watched movies and sometimes celebrated when A partners seemed "right" to be together... the movies make it seem ok, sometimes. Now I view it differently.

10 years ago, JJ (or her husband) may not have had an opportunity like MB to receive help and make the right choices... she may not be fully aware of the hurt she caused until she felt it herself. She might have been deep in the fog and since everything turned out "right" for her, she may have felt it was the right thing to do. Maybe recieving help now might have a profound affect on her beliefs and her life.

Mel said... I agree. I guess logically, that the WS becomes a FWS and the original family is back together again. But is the pain greater in that situation? Now we have new children to hurt... consequences... 10 years of building relationships and family to hurt... consequences... what about the first husband... has he moved on with his life? Would anyone wait for 10 years? Should they dissolve their marriage, apologize and maybe receive forgiveness from the 1st H, and then... remarry?

Right is right... of course. No grey... only black and white. We have made grey areas in most other controversial issues... murder, abortion, capital punishment, etc. etc. Each of us have our beliefs on each topic. The Bible has its view... is that Old or New Testament? Each Biblical view is dissected, challenged, interpreted, translated and dissected again. Exactly what is happening here.

What if JJ was "led" to this place because it is the best source of help for her. What if the results of that help can bring something of beauty or greatness to a small part of this world. I don't know what the results will be. I realize that JJ being here can be scary to all of us who believe that an A is always bad. But this is a person... one who has made mistakes... like every one of us here... reaching out for help.

What about the BS who knows the pain and still turns to become a WS. Isn't that scary... but yet we help them and in turn they have helped us.

I don't think there should be any discussion on whether or not this person should be here... only your own personal decision on whether or not you feel you are able to help this person.

JMVHO

Shaden

You know, Shaden, I don't know if I agree that is the most logical solution. I think this is a very difficult situation where the answer is not so very clear. At least, it's not clear to me.


Which I think is very productive. I don't think we get to make up what constitutes right and wrong. It is very clear what is right and wrong here or there would be no argument in the first place. What is not so clear is how it is applied to such a difficult situation as this. At least for me, I have benefitted greatly from this discussion and I think others have too. Difficult moral questions should be discussed because that is how folks learn. Eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep - Thanks very much for this thread. Very much appreciate it.

U clarified it well. Thanks Pep..... I would also like to order that T-shirt. Size.....ehm......I'll have to e-mail it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

S&C were discussing this earlier today. I gave my POV that there seems t/b something Jilly is hiding behind that is preventing her from receiving help as a Bs. You described it well. There was something gnawing at my bones about her thread. Not sure if she even realizes it but her reasons seem misplaced.

Yes, even a BS can start out with the wrong reasons. Bottom line is selfish reasonings have to be removed before any true help or healing can begin. Like removing the surface dirt before cleaning the open wound.

JMHO,
L.

I only have myself to turn to
when it comes to what I will decide to do about this issue ....

my decision is a result of my making an individual reckoning with my conscience, my values, taking an honest reading of my personal "yukky meter", to see if I have the stomach for this

furthermore, I recognize I have limited resources, my ability to tolerate certain "stuff" has limits ....

I acknowledge I am not currently in a position to "help" any marriage that I am aware began as an affair ...

there is a great amount of ambiguity inside of me regarding the value of me spending my MB time on such a project

If I reach out to help a BS whose spouse dumped him/her in order to begin an affair-based-marriage ... I would feel like a heel helping the affair-marriage a week, or a month, or even years later ....

I don't have what it takes ... whatever that may be ... it just feels like stuffing something horrible and poisonous down my own throat

my "yukky meter" is off the chart on this one

what I want to do is ... shrug my shoulders and say, "I donno" ... and I want to keep my distance

I see HUGE potential for inflicting BIG TIME hurt on any BS who lost their spouse to an affair-marriage

something that just makes my skin crawl .... putting MORE hurt on the raw open wounds of these unfortunate BS who tried like heck to save their marriage ... and were disgarded like yesterday's tissue ....

thanks

but

not for me

I've made my decision

count me out

sincerely

Pep

Interestingly, this has a "yukky" value for me as well.

I have only come across three A marriages (that I know of as being A marriages) in my whole lifetime. Two were public figures and one was the OM's father (sorry, but it's true).

The public figures were a politican and a very well known heart surgeon. The pukey value was when the politican died and his "new" wife wrote an article for the newspaper about their great love etc etc etc. It was seriously pukey. The pukiest part was when she said she didn't understand why his "old" wife and children had never accepted her.

The heart surgeon left the middle-aged mother of his three adult children for a much,much younger lawyer. Well, lucky old her - she hadn't had to put him through med school or looked after his toddlers when they were small. She had the benefit of keeping her looks, her figure and her career and latching on to him when he was a succesful well known man. (extreme sarcasm there) That had real pukey value as well.

I know that when push came to shove I couldn't and wouldn't have ethically, morally or any other way started a new life with the OM.

So, I guess that's my (probably surprising to you all) stand on this. I just can't support a marriage which had that sort of start.