I was using the example more in a "tongue-in-cheek" kind of way when I said "logical way". My point was what kind of answer would we expect from such a situation...10 years later. I really was saying there isn't any logical process in this one.


Again, I was unclear. I agree that the general discussion on right and wrong, and how a situation like this should be dealt with is an excellent discussion. I encourage debate... and for each person to personally choose their path. I just don't want to see someone "chased" from here even before she has been given a chance to learn and grow, especially when there is a divide on whether the person should receive help or not. Like I said earlier, the Wonderings choose not to help or interact with this person...which is right for them and a decision I applaud. I don't believe most here debating this topic would chase anyone away, but some might.

Shaden

Pep,

I understand and respect your POV.

Hugz,
L.

I'm so naive - it hadn't really occurred to me that anyone seeking help wouldn't lay out all the pertinent facts. But of course, you're right. It explains the weird quality of some stories, and their unwillingness to be helped, and the strange nature of the 'recovery' if it happens at all.


Yes...


And it strikes me that the pain of betrayal in an affair marriage must be even more personally agonising than in a non-affair marriage...if the rational for being with someone is how they make you feel...their unique personal qualities speaking to the other...then betrayal is an essentially personal rejection...'you aren't enough'. And if that's the basis of the marriage, you can't point out that you aren't supposed to be 'enough' all the time, that marriage has low points that you're supposed to ride through...all you can do is protest your superiority to the x-spouse, to the OP...there is no principle to hang your behaviour on, so all you're left with is desire and satisfaction.

Gosh.

TA

I guess it blows out the old "soul-mate" theory in these situations.

Shaden

Mel said -

I'll add that some cases may have much higher hurdles than others for "sufficient" repentance, e.g., the WS who boinked the BS's sibling; and my case in which the OM was a dear friend who had just laid my son in his grave - then helped take apart the rest of my family in addition to his own.

TA said -

I doubt it, but it obviously depends on the individuals involved and their degree of unreality. As a BS I wanna say the "BS" in an affair marriage shouldn't be surprised, and ought to be expecting it - or they're still in LaLa Land. Further, the betrayal is likely coming sooner rather than later and the accumulated history, friends, foundation is likely similarly limited. In short, they have less to lose.

JMHO

WAT

You're probably right that they "ought to be expecting it"... but I've read on here countless times when a BS is completely taken by surprise when their WS is having an A for the 2nd or 3rd time. Or when the WS's family has a history of A's, the BS is still surprised and shocked. Or when the BS has a revenge A, the FWS can be surprised and shocked.

I think when you love a person (in love), any A is surprising. You base your M on trust... this trust may be sitting on sand rather than rock but you don't think about that in day to day life. When the A happens, regardless of the situation in your M, it is shocking and extremely painful.

Shaden

My .02 on this subject:

Somebody posts here that their marriage, which was born of an affair, has now been struck by infidelity. The person wants help to use MB principles to put it back together.

"So, Newly Betrayed, let's get this straight: You married a known and unrepetant cheater. You KNEW this person was a cheater because they've already cheated with YOU - and you KNEW this person was unrepentant because they abandoned their own family for YOU - but you married them anyway.

"Now you want us to help you with saving your marriage to a known and unrepentant cheater. Well, the usual advice here to someone who has married a known and unrepentant cheater is to cut your losses and move on.

"It's a lot like buying a car that you KNOW has serious problems, that you KNOW is a lemon, but thinking it'll run okay for you because you're so special - and then being shocked when it doesn't run okay and in fact keeps breaking down and stranding you by the side of the road.

"Or even worse, it's so bad to drive that it actually causes a wreck and injures or kills someone.

"What is the best advice here? Do you think we should tell you, sure, keep driving that dangerous and unreliable vehicle, and maybe THIS TIME it won't break down and THIS TIME no innocent bystander will get hurt?

"Or would we serve you much better by telling you to get rid of the lemon and get something you can trust?

"The only way to deal with a serious lemon is to spend big bucks taking it to a master mechanic and letting them rebuild the thing, and then spend every day hoping that this time it'll be a trustworthy vehicle.

"Or you can just stop spending time and money and agony on the lemon and get something you can trust."

JMHO.
Mulan

Here is a situation to ponder...

A doctor in an ER has a patient wheeled in with serious wounds from a fight. The doctor learns this patient killed someone in cold blood. Do they choose not to help them because of their past sins?

Granted... the Doc has taken an oath.

Granted... we are not professionals (counsellors).

But does the offical oath or the official letters behind a name change whether something is right or wrong?

Shaden

I believe this is true and yet, it surprises me.

I am honest with the details of my first marriage, the in-between, and my current marriage. Always was, always will be. I expect others to be the same.

There are consequences, yes, even to honesty. It's the chance you take... and it's WORTH IT.

Who wants platitudes and nice words if they're based on a lie?

There are those, and have always been, who will not pray for (or condone) my marriage because we began the relationship before our divorces became final. So be it. I have to deal with my beliefs, my feelings, our families beliefs and feelings, our friends beliefs and feelings, and our God ...in REAL LIFE. Every day.

This thread was never about me, nor was the other one... and while the circumstances differ somewhat in our situation (we weren't with our prior spouses - they were with others and we lived apart from them when we met), I understand that to most ~~ infidelity is infidelity is infidelity.

I respect what is (was) trying to be accomplished here and what has been the outcome. It's honest.

I thank you again for the link, WAT, and for the openness to discuss this, Pepperband.

Isn't that what we are doing in each of our M's? Anyone who betrays once... whether they are in a new Adulterous Marriage or still in the same M trying to recover... the person who betrayed is a "lemon" trying to be rebuilt (trust has been broken in both situations).

I get the idea that repentance and remorse are happening when the original marriage is trying to be rebuilt... but possibly in the Adulterous Marriage, they didn't know any better. They didn't get proper help 10 years ago and were left with the idea that since everything was going right, it must be right.

I must clarify that I do NOT condone adulterous marriages. I admit my reasoning might seem that way. My thought process is more about ourselves... offering help to anyone regardless of the situation behind it. Like in my example on my previous post... when a person is bleeding in front of us, most wouldn't stop to find out if they hurt someone else prior to offering life-sustaining help. It doesn't mean that we condone the situation... maybe the help includes some serious words about their situation... but help can still be offered for them personally... to get through their momentary crisis and have the chance to do the right thing... whatever that is.

Shaden

The big difference is that in the former case, the BS married someone she KNEW does not believe in or practice fidelity; not so in the latter. If I marry someone who commits infidelity with me, I should not be surprised if he if unfaithful TO ME, because I knew he did not believe in fidelity. On the other hand, if my H committed adultery again, I probably would be surprised because he QUIT his affair and showed remarkable remorse. He demonstrated to me that this was an ABERRATION of character. That is another key difference from an affair marriage.

Mel... I get that and agree.

But I am talking about emotions... not logic. If you left your baby in the car alone and they were kidnapped or died... of course you know that you are to blame and will beat yourself up... but it doesn't change the emotions of loss and despair. Those emotions are real. You made a huge mistake... a stupid mistake. But the crisis is still the same.

Many points of advice to a BS (and a FWS) is to look at the present and the future... not to dwell on the past. I think it is the same in this situation. Let's deal with the present and maybe the past can be repaired one way or another for a better future.

Shaden

Probably not the best example... leaving a baby in the car... because most people will say the person deserves to suffer if they did such a stupid thing.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Shaden

Shaden, but we are not doctors who have vowed to help all others regardless of whether the wound was self inflicted or not. Nor is the patient dying of life threatening wounds. We are other PATIENTS in the hospital, so that analogy doesn't work.

I help those that I want to help; those who I think I have something TO offer. No one here is obliged to help anyone at all, this is an entirely voluntary self help board. And if someone finds a situation morally reprehensible or feels they cannot relate, they SHOULD walk away and leave it to those who CAN relate. That would be the noble thing to do. It is not appropriate to try and GUILT someone into helping help someone they know they can't help.

Help is offered here to any other BS in almost any situation (except maybe abusive BS's). The BS may have been a "bad" spouse, giving no attention, support, love to their WS. We say that the choice is always on the WS to have an A. Maybe the WS is bipolar, which I understand can give a higher risk for an A...shouldn't the BS know this and not be surprised? We offer advice to the BS to first improve themselves. We don't look first for the problems and then decide if they "deserve" help. We just help. Sometimes with 2x4s, sometimes with direct words (you know about this type, Mel <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ), and sometimes with compassion. But help in one form or another is offered.

Shaden

We all help whom we CHOOSE to help, Shaden. Please read my previous post; I think we were posting at the same time.

EXACTLY. That is my point. But the discussion here is also whether someone like JJ should be allowed on this forum. That is what I am arguing against...putting a ban on someone like JJ... not trying to force anyone to help.

Shaden

I said 2 or 3 times that I respect and applaud the Wonderings decision to ignore JJ and not offer help because they cannot for their personal reasons. I have no problem with this decision.

Shaden

I must have missed that part; I never saw anyone suggest banning JJ. That would be a completely fruitless discussion anyway since the only ones qualifed to ban anyone here are the mods and the board owners.

Then what is behind these all these exaggerated moral equations with leaving patients bleeding on the floor if not to make folks guilty about not helping someone they know they can't help? That is a pretty heartened attempt to manipulate some guilt, rather than show respect for those who did walk away. One would get the impression that you believe the Wonderings are walking away and leaving a dying patient on the floor.