Yes! I use my keylogger daily: she uses my comp to email. Anyway, her cousin is the worst person she goes for advice, not helping. Wants to meet OM since he makes her "happy."

However, major fog thinning existed in the response. WS mom things she needs counseling and to spend more time with me without the kids...where have I heard that? :-P

She goes on to say "It is a lot more than that. I am not sure about all of it either. It is hard because she thinks that I need to have counseling because she thinks something is wrong with me. It sucks. I don't know if I am making a mistake or not and I may if I decide that it was, I may end up alone. I just have to find out I guess. It is just so hard to have everyone hating me like that. thinking those horrible thoughts about me.
I am kind of tired today since I drank a bottle of wine last night. I didn't do it because I was depressed either. It was fun!! Ha I am crazy."

That is a direct quote from the email. Drinking. It isn't the only time she has talked about drinking as much.

What do you think? Unfortunately, she doesn't realized that admitting the mistake and coming back - she won't be alone.

Anyway, how's this: WS wants a separation. In NY, after a year of legal separation, a divorce can be granted no contest. Is this just fence sitting so she can get equal power during a divorce agreement or what? I can wait 9 months or so and then get one if I have to but if I am getting a divorce it is for adultery leading to cruel and inhumane treatment, definately not "no fault."

Cheers,

Brian

Is this fog lifting?

WS: "I am still up in the air about you?"


ME: "Do you ever think we are making a big mistake?"
WS: "Yeah, sometimes."

WS: "I really think this is messing up [daughter]."

Hugs Thorstein,

Your 'fog' discussion' sounds just like ours here.

Sometimes it thins and sometimes it's back thick as ever.

Goodluck mate

zuj

its good shes second guessing herself thats part of her knowing this is wrong and thats good for you
takes time youll find your way man i believe in you

Did I just do something stupid?

My WS moved out by my urging. I was reading many threads and most of them intimated that Plan A cannot work without spouse in the house. She moved in with OM.

I also read about one member who said she invited WH back and plan A'd him away from OW.

Still a novice, I am still fleshing out my knowledge of Plan A but apparently lost this focus.

I asked her to come back and she said we will talk about it tomorrow. Hmmmm. In my sitch, WS is here everyday to watch the kids while I am at work. Plan A would work then, but... I truly miss her, BUT I told her she could stay until we figure things out because my daughter is really taking this hard. 4 yrs. old and she tried to block the door so her mommy wouldn't go.

She cries every night, son does too (he is 2) but I think he knows as well.

Did I do the right thing by asking her back? Or am I inviting more cake eating? She has agreed to read SAA with an open mind. She reminds me so much of "Sue" in the book. Though, I am not quite where "Jon" is.

Also, my IC said, "You can always get a D, why rush it when you aren't ready."

Rushing her out of the house before I was ready may not have been a good thing.

Opinions please!

Thanks
Brian

Thorstein,

I demanded WH leave when I found out...and he was gone a month...we began MC and three weeks later, he moved back home...however, it was not to recover the marriage...it was to figure out if he wanted to and he had a deadline...two months.

In the meantime, he gave up seeing the OW because he wanted to make this major decision with a clear head...per our MC. That to attempt to make this decision with OW's influence and continuing his A would be detrimental to his own desire to really know what to do.

Thought I'd throw that at you as far as boundaries for returning, possible viewpoint of "until we figure things out" broken out and defined.

Hope it helps.

LA

Okay. I still Plan A and thought about going to B in early November. But she shouldn't know that correct? I was thinking that I hadn't PLan A'd long enough, but I think her reading SAA may be a start: every journey of a 1000 steps begins with but one.


Aha. MC wanted him to make decision with a clear head. So you were seeing an MC. So he was already leaning that way? WW doesn't think anything is wrong with her and isn't interested in seeing IC or MC, though I think that may be fog talk because she has said that, should we decide to work things out, she would need IC and then we both could go to MC.

What an alien.

He wasn't leaning any way at the time...if anything, away from me.

I asked for MC while we were separated, after he held his palms evenly up and said, "I have feelings for her" one hand, "and you" the other. 15 years versus three weeks. Dead even. I was gutted. Thank God for stepping in and asking in a calm voice, "You mean we're even?"

"Yes."

"Will you go to a marriage weekend with me Nov 17th?"

"I'll think about it."

"What happened to equal time?" (He had said I could have equal time to what he spent with her...this was pre-MB)

"I haven't been doing that."

"Would you consider counseling?"

"Maybe."

And then he said yes, the next day. I had it set up in one week. I told him where, when and about the counselor (searched online for Christian, pro-marriage counseling).

When we arrived (separately) and were entering the room, OW called him on his new cell.

I say all this to show you that there are many moments of pain...and I wouldn't trade my life now for not having had them...at all. You live through the pain and it teaches you how to...very important.

Thor, this is also about what you want...your boundaries. She has a choice...either family or not...what are your boundaries for a decision? In or out, counseling or not...all of them have your half and hers...seems like you weight hers more...focus on hers more...than yours.

You seem reactive and spontaneous...yet here, you are trying so hard to be active and have a plan...am I understanding you correctly?

LA

Yes, dead on. Sometimes I am reactive, sometimes I act. I guess my barometer is: if it hurts, I must be doing it right. She has gone with me to my IC (who also works on Ms) but I think there would be bias. Though my IC doesn't know of MB, her thinking is very similar, probably due to experience.

IC said she is welcome back, IF she wishes to work on relationship. WS response: silence.(Not "Okay" Not "No way")
She is living with OM and a separation is in the works (neither of us is pushing it forward), she still knows (fog lift) that it is wrong.

My main problem isn't just setting boundaries, it is maintaining them.

Thank you so much,

Brian

Hi Brian,

I haven't been around these parts for some time, but as an old-timer, I thought I'd throw you a few bones.


Reading threads can be hazardous to your marriage---especially when the boards are polarized (which appears to be the case from what I've been catching up on). Plan A is usually done with the wayward spouse in the house. Very rarely (and almost never due to the BS's request) is plan A done in "remote".

Here are some ideas:

1. Call Harley (Steve, Jenn, Bill---whoever answers the phone these days), and get an appointment. Last time I called (about 8 years ago), appointments were by calling 888-639-1639. It will be well worth the investement to have someone on your side with a terrific ability to communicate and with the ability to help you form a coherent game plan. If you take one piece of advice---please do the counseling. It saved my butt.

2. Be a thermostat, not a thermometer. Act, don't react. You need to have a consistent plan and put on a good game face, and execute the plan no matter what your alien WS is up to. Be loving, be consistent, and avoid lovebusting.

3. Be aware that your wife is an addict right now, and you're likely to see all the unpleasant effects that addicts go through when justifying their addiction. It is what it is---don't sweat it. She will have to make the decision to kick the addiction---and maybe she'll be smart and do it early.

4. I believe that if you do #1, you have an outstanding opportunity to save your marriage. You have young children together, and if you follow a good plan---you'll be fine. I think I told Bob P something similar when he first showed up here.

5. There is a lot of good on this site. But---when I was dealing with this nightmare (1997), there was no forum (it was just the other pages). I believe in some ways that this was better---there's a lot of noise here, and not everyone gets the program. Read the material (Concepts, Q&A's, books---even if it might not be directly applicable). And do the counseling---you'll get more insight from a few sessions with one of the Harley's then spending all your time reading here.

6. Don't communicate timelines to your spouse. They come across as selfish demands---and when you're thinking November, you might not make it to October. Or you might make it to March. You don't need to give your spouse any fodder for you being a "liar"---they'll invent plenty for you---it's part of the fog.

Great advice. I just checked the fee schedule and I was surprised at the price (low.) Should I see if my WS would be willing to have a go at it with me and them or do I consult on my own and get a plan?

On one hand, her willingness may be good, but if she is in fogland she won't want to anyway. Can't hurt to ask, can it?

Consult by yourself for the first time or two. Steve (or Jenn) will probably suggest that you ask your spouse to join eventually. When I did this my wife was fully involved in her affair---I did a couple sessions by myself. Then my wife did a couple---she hated it (once slept about 12 hours directly after one), and ended up quitting. But that was solely used to lay some of the groundwork. It was successful, but I wouldn't find out about the success until months later. That's one of the reasons I counsel that you remain steady (the "thermostat")---you will always be having an effect on your marriage, even when you feel like you're pissing into the wind with your efforts.

For me, after Plan A, Plan B---several months later, the affair ended. A synopsis is here : http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...ge=1#Post330660

As tough as you think this part is---it's recovery that is the real work. But once you get on the same page, and get past the trust issues, things can move pretty quickly.

Thor - good advice from K.

He invented the internet, ya know.

What does your separation document say about custody?

What do you mean by "I can't do that because, it happened with my parents." You mean you don't think that it's smart?

Why not invite her home?

I recommend you take Dobson's book with a grain of salt. Some of it's useful for this, but, well, ........ nevermind. Read also Frank Pittman's "Private Lies".

More like "dominated it's use at MB from 1998-2001...

Brian---the custody issue is a sticky situation for mothers. The fact that she's moved out has given her a very tough taste of what divorce may be like. It's thrown the fantasy and secrecy of the affair out the window. That's all good---but she's still probably addicted. Bringing her home will be good, but you need to jointly establish boundaries with regards to her behavior, and you need to not be surprised if (when) she breaks them.

But Steve will help you with that in detail...

Sep Document states that she is allowed visitation twice during the week from 7 to 7(bed time). I get weekends.

I can't "take the kids from her" because, I remember my parents divorce and it ripped my whole universe apart: don't want that for my kids and is also the reason I am here.

Daughter wakes up nightly and cries about her not living here. I am so tempted to call WS and let her hear her cry.

I did invite her home while I was in BS fog because she was here almost all weekend and we had a great time.

She won't live here under the conditions that she no longer see him. I did call her at OM's house and we had a light and lively converstion (it must have killed him, I hope) with him in the room. She was laughing and enjoying the convo. I plan on doing this more often. MUahahahahahahaa!

She does want to stay at least a night a week. She is going to read SAA and tried to but daughter drew her attention away.

If she stays she will be cake eating. Maybe I can get her, after she reads SAA, to give it a couple weeks to clear her head and decide if this marriage is what she wants: In other words, stay for 2 weeks without contact and see if M is what she wants. I think that might be too great a gamble at this point, however.

She told me that she is enjoying her lack of responsibility (selfishness) but she still seems determined to cheat. She thought that living with him was somehow okay because "we are no longer together." I told her (in a calm, respectful way) that everyone else still sees it as cheating.

She asked for $500.00 the other day for a down payment on a car. I was speechless. She said she understood. Sometimes silence is the best answer.