Okay, BlackOpal...and everyone else involved...we will let what has happened die. I hope that all have taken in what has been said and will move forward from here. And do better.

Now, back to the thread. FH has brought some more great points to this, as have some others. Is an affair marriage a real marriage? Is it adultery? Should you divorce and go back to yoru original spouse? What if they are already married?

How does Scripture speak to these?

And the basis of this study I will elude to now. It has to do with covenants and death. I will leave you with that little snippet so you might think a little on that also.

Standing in His Presence

In metaphysical terminology, this would mean that we cannot go backwards, once we are on a path to enlightenment, or have begun to leave our ego's behind and look at the greater good, we cannot go backwards...at least not for long.

Once the mind is stretched, it cannot be unstretched.

Sorry MM, couldn't resist.

I am a Christian by virtue of Jesus's influence in my life but once I started looking past the linguistics to the symbolism and then past the symbolism to how this all ties into all humanity, and to other religions...

well 2+2

You are doing all you can. Just keep pointing him to Jesus. The battle he is having right now is with Jesus. Unlike your husband, who is the spiritual leader of your household (and thus your spiritual leader)...you are not responsible for his relationship with Jesus. Your husband is your head...Jesus is his head. So, pray to Jesus and trust Him to take care of your husband.

And keep being supportive and try to point him in the right direction.

Standing in His Presence

Agreed to move forward.

MM... just a thought that brightened my day... HE knows all our days... he has put us here to learn from his presence... the ending is already known... how great is it that we (from all corners of the globe) come together to glorify Him.

Thanks

One thing he says he has trouble with and that is hearing Jesus speaking to him. He says he doesn't know how to do that. Any help on what to tell him. Sorry about the tj.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Standing in His Presence

It's okay. Here's the thing...many Christians dont know how to hear God. They dont even know how to pray. And this is a long subject.

My suggestion is that he does go to see his pastor, and ask these very questions.

But in short, Jesus is knowable. I have no doubt that Jesus is talking to your husband. But satan is also. satan is telling your husband he is no good. how could God or anyone else forgive him for what he has done?

Your husband needs to stay in the Word. And when these things come up in his head, he should ask himself "who sent me that message?" If it is not of God, it has to be of the Devil. And that means your husband can just do as Jesus did, and tell Satan to go away.

Standing in His Presence

Thanks MM,

I will encourage him more in these areas and pray, I have learned that if I suggest he reads he tends to rebel where as if he does it on his own it works out better.

I wish he would talk to your or FH. I will pray that he will seek Godly counsel. He has the tendency to let me lead with things and I'm trying to nudge it back to him. He says that "I want him to be the spiritual leader however he doesn't want me to see him as weak because of the mistakes he has made." He says he doesn't have the same sense of right and wrong that I do.

He has decided to retire from the military in a few years. He says he has prayed about it and this is the way he feels God is leading him.

Thanks again

Deleted by me as a token of my willingness to drop this.

"Okay, BlackOpal...and everyone else involved...we will let what has happened die. I hope that all have taken in what has been said and will move forward from here. And do better."

I didnt see this prior to my last response. Agreed, on my honor, despite any provocation thrown my way.

No, that's not what I was saying. What I said was that it is very unlikely that a believer would take the affair to the point of divorce and remarriage because a believe will KNOW that what they are doing is a sin against God and would be "convicted" in their heart of that sin. Once that happens, they will repent and seek forgiveness, and if the Betrayed Spouse is willing, recovery of their marriage.

Any believer CAN fall into any type of sin when they take their eyes off of God. Especially if they start taking their "feelings" as being more "true" than God's commands to them as believers. But the work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal our sins to us so that we can repent of them and grow stronger in our walk with the Lord.

Sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying. I hope that clarifies it a bit more for you.

(((((bjs)))))

bjs, it's when we are weak that God's strength can be more clearly seen. It is NOT "in self" that we rely, but "in Christ." That, too, is part of the learning process that we all go through, especially since most of us have been "trained" since childhood to "take charge" and "just do it."

For the believer who HAS sinned and recognized it, there is a sense of "unworthiness," of "guilt," that must be overcome because we are ALL unworthy and gain "worthiness" in what Christ has done for us, not by what we do or don't do.

It actually "gets worse" as we DO begin to walk closer with Christ because we begin to realize just how far short of Godly perfection we really are, and how much we don't know. We begin to realize the factual underpinning of "there, but for the grace of God, go I."

God bless.

Yes, it does, thank you.

I have a question for you guys regarding a family situation.

My sister is very devoutly religious (Catholic). She is in a bad marriage. Actually, she's how I found this site --- I was trying to find her information on Retrovaille and this came up in the search that I typed in.

Anyway, I've tried to help her out by giving her advice, suggesting books, counseling, .. this has been going on for years and believe me I've tried almost everything to help her out. Her H is, in my opinion and the opinion of the rest of our family, incredibly emotionally abusive to her (and a non-practicing Catholic (?)).

Obviously, it's been very hard to watch her suffer in this marriage. She's developed a chronic disease -- her health is suffering, she's aging prematurely, and this man is just .. well, he's not at all interested in changing anything for any one.


The other day, in a discussion with my mother (non-practicing Catholic), she was expressing sadness that her eldest child is getting sicker and older and suffering in a relationship to a man who treats her worse than a dog. My mother strongly feels that it is because of her strong religious beliefs that my sister will not consider getting out of the situation before it literally takes her life. I suspect that she's right.

I suppose, as an athiest, I should just stay away from the discussion about that (and I have so far) but I wondered. Assuming he hasn't cheated on her (I think he has but he hasn't been caught... ) what advice would you give to someone you saw suffering like that? All her efforts to improve the marriage have not worked. I'm not sure if he's a believer or not -- the only time I've seen him in church is his wedding and a few funerals. It's clear that he's not a spiritual head in any sense of the word nor is he interested in leaving (he's got a good thing going).

I realize it's her choice. I do try to be supportive of her views and I have very strong feelings about preserving marriage. I've recommended that she seek guidance from her priest -- and I think she did but I'm not sure exactly what she was told.

I'm clearly not objective about the situation and neither is my mother. I know my sister isn't perfect. It does sound as though what she's told me about her religious teachings contribute to keeping her stuck and abused (not developing boundaries). I understand that the teachings assume you're dealing with someone who's ALSO following the teachings (ie. won't abuse you) but that is really not the case here. She got so sick last December, she almost died. Her Dr. said it was a very close call and she's suprised she didn't see her in the morgue. I'm very worried.

Should I not encourage her to divorce if it's against the tenents of her religion even if it means the stress literally kills her? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I just want to tell her to run away from this man as fast as she can (not that she'd listen to me, likely).

Any thoughts? Oh, I'd send her here, but she's about as uncomputer savvy as you can get. The poor thing can't connect to the internet except the 2 weeks I go visit her. I have NO idea what she does to that machine in the meantime...

Mys

New Beginning II - Okay, I have no argument that a true believer "cannot" sin. They can and do. So do I from time to time. But God "turns up the volume" on a believer who refuses to listen and "keeps after them" until they DO hear.

Included in that "volume" are things like exposing the secret affair that increase the "awareness" that what is being done is wrong. I confess that I don't know if you married your affair partner or not, but by the time such a think would happen, the "volume level" would be very high. Willfully refusing to listen to God and to submit to God's will WILL result in consequences, that is what I am saying.

What I said was that, while not conceivably impossible, it is highly unlikely that a true believer would go through the whole timeframe of affair, divorce, and remarriage IF they ARE a true believer. The simple reason is that a true believer CHOOSES to submit their will to God's will and to NOT willfully sinning. They accept the need to repent of sins when they are made aware of them.

Why does it take so long, in some cases, to "give up the affair?" Because sin in many cases "feels good" and is "addictive," adding a greater degree of difficult to "just quitting." Sin can be blinding, hiding the truth, but God does not stop going after one of His, and HE knows exactly who they are.

All we can do is observe and make judgments ala James, that "faith without works is dead." One cannot claim to be a child of God and reserve the right to act as child of Satan. As Jesus put it, " a man cannot serve two masters."

MEDC - let me ask you a question in response, if I may.

When God forgives a believer of their sins, is it total and completely covering, or "just a little bit?"

"some were such as you" would seem to cover the point that you are raising (see previous Scripture reference).

Where sin is "covered," it no longer exists in God's eyes. Whether or not Man thinks this is "fair" is irrelevant because NONE of us "merits" forgiveness for any of our sins, yet God grants us that same forgiveness by His mercy and grace on behalf of Jesus who "paid the price" for us.

This IS the essence of forgiving as God has forgiven us, and is the basis of the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant.

May be highly unlikely, FH, but it's what I did... and no, I didn't marry my affair partner, though the circumstances surrounding my rebound marriage are considered "infidelity" since we met before the divorces were final (both our prior spouses had moved on, or in, with others). My story is so-all-over this board, believe me. No secrets, here.

You see, FH, the Holy Spirit was very busy telling me what NOT to do, along with my precious grandmother, my then-H, and other family members. I was loved, for sure, but they were very confused by my behavior, considering my beliefs and how important our spiritual/church life had been (I was church secretary for several years prior).

But you know, I'm human, and we humans can be stubborn and selfish -- and I was both. Didn't mean I wasn't (or am not) a Christian... not even a "fallen" Christian... just a very hurting, confused and stupid one.

FH

Thank you,

The hardest part for me is to get out of God's way and let my him feel the incredible pain he is now feeling with the realization of exactly what he was doing, and how close he came to having sex with the OW. He is trying to figure out exactly what brought him to that point. Before we talk I ask for guidance, last night for the first time ever I was able to pray with him during one of our talks.

Trying to help him hear God's voice, it's hard for me to explain to him. This week I have asked him some questions that he needs to think about and for the first time in awhile he has told me that things at work are unusually quiet.

Thank you and MM for guidance, I may talk to him about contacting you guys if you don't mind. I do know he would not come to a forum and put it out there though. He would be angry that I have.

This is something I have raised with ForeverHers on another thread. This is a dangerous belief in my opinion and is not supported by scripture.

bjs, the "easiest" way to hear Jesus speaking is to READ the Bible. Get it "direct from the horse's mouth," if I can be a little crude.

Then spend some quiet time in prayer asking God to illuminate his understanding, soften and make receptive his heart to the Spirit's guidance, and guide him to resources that will further help him.

After that, discussing things with a bible believing person who accepts the Scriptures as the inspired Word of God, would help to understand various passages and areas of confusion.

In short, don't be a "turtle" and don't be afraid to ask. A true Christian believer would NOT ridicule any question he might ask. Very few of us who might a "little further along the path of Sanctification" are more than willing to try to help someone with their questions and struggles in understanding what the Scripture may be saying about some point.

God bless.

Ditto. I can quote quite a few scriptures to the contrary of OSAS. Even if it is in QUESTION, it is incumbent from the whole err on the side of caution thing to be very careful about this one.