Though there may be many different viewpoints on the route you ought to take with this, please believe that God has a wonderful plan for you even yet, and that He is doing His best to guide you into it.

JJ, I am glad you came back and posted, as I would like to discuss these things with you. And maybe even get to more fully understand your situation in your current marriage. I do not email married women, as it opens doors that lead to problems. It is a boundary I have. We can open a different thread concerning all of this, if you would like.


JJ, I again do not know your whole story. But I do "hear" your pain in your responses here. I dont think any of the people here want you to hurt...and really do want you to get the answers you need. So, maybe starting a new thread and going thru this might help. But, understand...sometimes, the answers may be harsh...they may be rough. They may be to-the-point. But also understand that if anyone starts "piling on," I will be the first to jump in their face. Okay?


I am glad to hear you say that.


All true! It is why suicide is the ultimate in selfishness.


Again, all true. Which means that once people do know, they can tailor hwo they approach an individual. But JJ...you also need to understand that until you tell someone this, they will not know. The reason many here appear "harsh" is that they are trying to get to root causes...get to the point. Help that person. Get past all of the chaff. A poster can help them by beign upfront and get the information out there...while, at the same time, dont let soem harsh statements of posts drive them away.


I do not think anyone here doesnt want to help you, JJ. It is just that some do not really know how. Some believe that a marriage based in adultery is not a marriage. And there is some Scripture to support that. But others have Scripture to support that it is a marriage. The issue is both types are trying to help!! They just have two different answers. Your job is to take the advice, take the facts...and pray and let God lead you to the answer.

If someone on here says that your marriage isnt recognized by God and you should leave it immediately...they are doign so because they are trying to help. Are they right? Well, we'll see. It is one of the reasons that I am putting this study up here. So we can all can learn (including me!!) and find our way thru this touchy subject. My marriage is headed to divorce...so I have a vested interest in knowing the answers to these questions.

But no matter which side they are comign from, JJ...they are trying to help. I assure you.


If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you already are!!

I often put this on here...but I will do it again here. What makes something have worth? If I am going to buy a painting, what makes it worth a million dollars? What makes another painting worth a few dollars? What's the difference?

The answer is...each painting is worth what the buyer is willing to pay. For something rare, something desired...the value is a lot. For something that is a dime-a-dozen...it is worth little.

If you profess to be a follower of Jesus, you need to know your worth. What was God willing to pay for YOU?!?!? He sacrificed his own Son for you. The God of this Universe came, bled, died...for you. That was quite a price!!

So, I ask you again JJ...what are you worth? Because the way I see it, that in God's eyes...you are rare. You are priceless. You are worth Him dying for you.

You see, when you knwo what you are worth...it changes your perspective on everything!!

JJ..I am going to start a new thread for this on your stuff. What do you say that you jsut lay aside the past on here...and begin again?

The idea that God would withdraw his gift of forgiveness from me if I didn't mind my p's and q's...is an incredibly hurtful and abusive concept...

It undermines love.

It causes people to live in fear...

"Am I forgiven? Have I missed something?"

Thank you for this LOW. I couldn't agree more.

I don't argue with their viewpoint any longer though, for personal reasons... and because I value MM, FH and the other fundalmentalist Christians on this board, but I always am so thankful when someone offers a viewpoint such as you have just done.

I love my faith and it pains me to know that some people who could benefit and find so much peace in the Lord may be turned off by the invoking of fear instead of love in God's name.

There is such a kind, gentleness to MM (and often FH too) when he speaks of God that I simply ignore what I don't agree with and hope that others find solace and peace in God, and in the teachings of Jesus regardless of the things being taught that I know in my heart are not in allignment with the God I have come to know.

I for one do not believe that salvation is ever lost. Give yourself to the Lord and he will never let you go.

Commitments made while in a sinful state...

Should we end them all in order to repent?

If a child is born out of wedlock, should the father deny that commitment to "repent" of that sin?

If a man builds a community center using drug money, should he insist that they tear it down so he can "repent"?

If a woman blow up a bridge, must she rebuild it in order to "repent"?

Mortarman, I noticed you started a thread for justjilly.
That was thoughtful and kind of you and I see she requested you could start a thread with the discussion apart from this thread.

I like and care about JustJilly. She is a sweet young lady.

I think it would be helpful if you copied and pasted this
below post from THIS thread to that thread. I didn't think I should do this without your permission so I hope you will post it there so it's contents won't get lost here in THIS topic. (Plus it would bump the thread you started to the top.)

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Re: God's View of Marriage, Divorce and Re-marriage [Re: justjilly]
#3072216 - 08/03/06 07:08 AM

Quote:
Mortarman,

Quote:
My oldest son is not mine biologically. I met my wife when he was just a few months old. After we married, I adopted my son and he took my name. He was grafted into this family that day. And thus, he is as much my son as his younger brother, who is my biological son. And both sons, no matter how they became my sons...will always be my sons. They cannot change that.




I am adopted and would very much like to discuss this topic with you further in depth..outside of this thread and outside the other issues that led me to this board. I know there has been a lot of debate and discussion regarding my life and situation. All of you are entitled to your opionions and I do fully understand exactly how and why my mere presence is such an affront to many BS everywhere.



JJ, I am glad you came back and posted, as I would like to discuss these things with you. And maybe even get to more fully understand your situation in your current marriage. I do not email married women, as it opens doors that lead to problems. It is a boundary I have. We can open a different thread concerning all of this, if you would like.

Quote:
If there are some who would like to discuss this further and are really interested in trying to at least understand my complex situation I am willing to give it a try. I was hurt by many comments here and I am not in any way saying that I do not deserve to be hurt. I am painfully aware of the hurt that I have caused other people in my life and for what it is worth I have sincerely apologized to all of those (well at least I think all I know of) that I have hurt as a result of my sinful behavior.



JJ, I again do not know your whole story. But I do "hear" your pain in your responses here. I dont think any of the people here want you to hurt...and really do want you to get the answers you need. So, maybe starting a new thread and going thru this might help. But, understand...sometimes, the answers may be harsh...they may be rough. They may be to-the-point. But also understand that if anyone starts "piling on," I will be the first to jump in their face. Okay?

Quote:
One wise poster I cannot remember which seemed to pick up on a sense of detachment in me. This keen poster saw something I am not sure how but they did. They recognized at the time of my last posting that I was borderline suicidal. Just because someone contemplates suicide doesn't mean as in my case they would actually kill themself. I felt like it yes...but I have children and family and no matter how much I may hurt they are never to be punished in that way.



I am glad to hear you say that.

Quote:
At 17 my BF of a couple of months shot himself in the head and died. That was almost 21 years ago. It still struggle with understanding how a beautiful 18 year old boy with so much potential could do this. It nearly destroyed me. At 17 I thought if I tried to put myself in his mindset it would help me to understand. It wasn't a wise decision. What I have learned over the years is that suicide is not a viable option. It leaves behind so much brokeness that requires a lot of fixing and some of the damage cannot ever be completely repaired. Everytime I find myself thinking of this I think of his mom. My pain is trivial when I think of what his mother had to endure.



All true! It is why suicide is the ultimate in selfishness.

Quote:
My reason for bringing this up and this isn't to ask anyone to behave anyway other than the way they feel is really right for them is just to say one thing...you really never know how much your words can hurt another person. None of us really knows just how fragile the person on the other end of the keyboard is. We just don't know.



Again, all true. Which means that once people do know, they can tailor hwo they approach an individual. But JJ...you also need to understand that until you tell someone this, they will not know. The reason many here appear "harsh" is that they are trying to get to root causes...get to the point. Help that person. Get past all of the chaff. A poster can help them by beign upfront and get the information out there...while, at the same time, dont let soem harsh statements of posts drive them away.

Quote:
I understand that there are many here who feel that they not only can't but shouldn't help me. I understand and respect your decision. Please know that I am really trying here. I am not expecting anyone to like me or my situation. I don't like me or my situation right now either. And for the record I never said I was justified in having an A. I was NOT. I was wrong...I never thought it was right or okay. I am living with the consequences of my sins. How this will all turn out only God knows that.



I do not think anyone here doesnt want to help you, JJ. It is just that some do not really know how. Some believe that a marriage based in adultery is not a marriage. And there is some Scripture to support that. But others have Scripture to support that it is a marriage. The issue is both types are trying to help!! They just have two different answers. Your job is to take the advice, take the facts...and pray and let God lead you to the answer.

If someone on here says that your marriage isnt recognized by God and you should leave it immediately...they are doign so because they are trying to help. Are they right? Well, we'll see. It is one of the reasons that I am putting this study up here. So we can all can learn (including me!!) and find our way thru this touchy subject. My marriage is headed to divorce...so I have a vested interest in knowing the answers to these questions.

But no matter which side they are comign from, JJ...they are trying to help. I assure you.

Quote:
And yes, I do believe in God..have I always listened to him? No, it is painfully obvious that I was so far away from God for a long time. Many things have happened in the course of my life that have caused me to question God and because God is willing to look after even one lost sheep he has the infinite wisdom to never give up on us...never write us off as permanently defective goods.

For much of my life I felt subhuman and certainly not worth anything. God has taken care of me more than I deserve. It is my sincere hope that someday with a lot of work that I can become a better person.

Jilly



If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you already are!!

I often put this on here...but I will do it again here. What makes something have worth? If I am going to buy a painting, what makes it worth a million dollars? What makes another painting worth a few dollars? What's the difference?

The answer is...each painting is worth what the buyer is willing to pay. For something rare, something desired...the value is a lot. For something that is a dime-a-dozen...it is worth little.

If you profess to be a follower of Jesus, you need to know your worth. What was God willing to pay for YOU?!?!? He sacrificed his own Son for you. The God of this Universe came, bled, died...for you. That was quite a price!!

So, I ask you again JJ...what are you worth? Because the way I see it, that in God's eyes...you are rare. You are priceless. You are worth Him dying for you.

You see, when you knwo what you are worth...it changes your perspective on everything!!

JJ..I am going to start a new thread for this on your stuff. What do you say that you jsut lay aside the past on here...and begin again?

I see one theme battling around here and I would also like to chime in on that one.

It is connected to what LowOrbit just posted.

I think FH adequately addressed this earlier when he spoke of the thief on the cross next to Jesus. That man went to heaven that day...and never had made amends for his sins (theft). How is that possible?

Because, as FH also said...God knows your heart. Sometimes, you cant make amends. In the case of a child born to a WS and OP, you cannot have a "do over." You cannot "unbirth" the child. You can kill it, but then you are guilty of a different sin. And then how do you amend for that?

Jesus said that his yoke is light. This isnt meant to be hard to follow Him. When I say "hard," I mean that His way is simple (not that it isnt hard to do many times!). Jesus is not the author of confusion!! That is the purview of Satan.

So, the idea of repentence and making amends appears to be where you CAN make amends. With adultery, my wife cant go back and take back the sex she had with the Troll. She cant. So, how does she make amends if she truly wanted to follow Jesus?

She would do so by giving me what I needed to get past this...to heal. That is how she could repay.

But, if she wants to express sorrow...but not repay, then this is NOT true repentence. And she is left in her sin.

As I said (and others said before), it is what is in the heart. If you are following your heart, the one occupied by Jesus...then you will make amends where possible. He will tell you what to do.

But, if you ignore your heart (Christians) and do it your own way...well, then true repentence is not possible. And you are left in your sins. And certain judgment will come to you.

In the case that we talk about here concerning a marriage starting in adultery, it again has to do with the heart. And what Scripture says. As I said before, I will go into this in the study...but suffice it to say, there is Scriptural precedence for adulterous marriages to be blessed by God.

Take King David and Bathsheba. David committed adultery and murder to be with Bathsheba. He had her husband killed. But later on, David and Bathsheba's marriage was blessed by God. How is that possible?

well, remember...God knew david's heart. And once David was convicted of his sins, he laid himself before God and his judgment. Now, their adultery/murder cost a lot. David lost 4 kids due to his sins. God was paid in blood. That was a awfully large price David and Bathsheba paid. But once God's wrath was satisfied, their marriage was blessed and they gave birth to a son that God loved.

They went on in their marriage. God considered them married. Of course, they had paid a very steep price for their sins (5 dead people). And I am sure in many ways, the consequences of those sins went with them throughout their lives. But, when it came to their position with God...the matter was settled.

Hope that helps.

IWRA...will do. Good idea.

I addressed the issue of salvation that you brought up. I will say simply that in the cases that you mentioned here...
denying a committment to a child is not repenting of the sin... that is a silly example. There is NOTHING a person can do in this case except ask for forgiveness.

The second example is equally silly.

The third.. she should help pay for it and if she is a skilled bridge designer.. she should also work on the bridge.

I am not going to get into these far out examples and play this game.

I addressed my views on salvation not being something that can be lost.

I will let it end there and let this thread get back to what MM intended.

My point is that there are things that cannot be "undone"...a ten year marriage with children is one of them.

Repentance doesn't require an act to be undone...

Another very ridiculous example...I hurt the ex-OW and her children very much.

Should I resume contact with all of them in order to "fix" what I broke? To somehow make it up to them?

No, I will never be able to undo that pain and suffering...but I don't need to to be forgiven.

The very term "Forgiveness" means you are being granted a debt "paid" without you having to balance the scales...it is NOT forgiveness otherwise.

The very fact that you consider these to be "ridiculous" examples indicates that it's an issue of "picking and choosing"...not of principle.

Principles would be equally workable in these ridiculous examples...and we see that it is not.

Sometimes, the road back to righteousness ain't the same one you took to get where you're at.

I think God only asks you to make amends to the extent you do no more hurt and harm...pretty much what FH said...

Exactly...good post Low.

okay, you win.

Okay.........are we, at some point, going to get to the nitty gritty of God's view of Marriage, Divorce, and Re-marriage???

I am really interested to know. I'll admit I've only scanned this post as most of it had to do with judging and whether or not it was okay to do so. I know that I have opinions of other people's actions, but I try very hard not to judge them, as I don't feel it is my place.

I really want to know how God feels about these things, firstly because my current marriage is my 2nd marriage. When I married my first husband I was 16 years old.....I had no concept of "until death do us part", I never thought of our marriage in terms of forever, and I was basically going through the motions when I said my vows....it's an awful realization to come to, but I honestly had no idea what I was signing up for. I was a child. I was divorced by the time I was 20 and remarried when I was 27.

I have often wondered if my current marriage could have been considered an adulterous one........my ex-husband did have an affair....but not until after I'd kicked him out and he was living on his own (but we weren't divorced yet), does that, in itself make it okay that I divorced him?

I'll admit that at the time I was VERY VERY far from God, I wasn't having an affair, but I was not following his word.

I DID initiate the divorce (not with the lawyer, but told my ex-husband that I wished to be divorced....he got the lawyer and we got a dissolution rather quickly). But I didn't initiate the divorce because of any OM....I was just too darn young to be married, and had finally come to that realization. Was it right....probably not, but I don't think I was ever in love with him, I thought I should marry him because I was pregnant, I thought that was the right thing to do.

Now that I'm on this rocky road with my current marriage....I almost feel like apologizing to my ex-husband, because he did love me (He was 20 when we married)and was very hurt, and cried alot about it, but I had made my decision and wouldn't back down from it. My ex has been married to his current wife for about 17 years, so I don't think that at this point any apology from me would be welcome, but I am sorry that I hurt him. If he felt even 1/2 the pain that I have felt then I am a terrible person.

Then I think of the possibility of yet a 2nd divorce and I just want to throw up. I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be the person that's been married to 3 different people.

Yet I DO want to be married. I DO want to be in a committed relationship. I would prefer to do so with my current husband, but if that doesn't work out.....what am I to do?

God Bless,

-Caren

Caren...I am typing furiously trying to get it up there. Many of your questions should be answered in the study. So hang tight!!

Oh Caren,

For your feelings of remorse over your harm to your first husband and marriage, send your apology up into the arms of the Holy Spirit, and it will be kept there until if and when your first H is ready to receive it, and please forgive yourself.

If this current M doesn't work out, then you will move on and with all that you have learned you will make good choices and enter into the marriage God intended for you and that awaits.

I hope your current WH comes around but if not then you will marry again if that is what you want, and it will be blessed.

You are a good person Caron, and this last post of yours about breaks my heart as many of yours have.

Don't crucify yourself, it is not necessary any longer as you have looked within to see the hurts you have caused others and have come so far and now you need to forgive yourself.

Boy if you knew the kind of life I have led, yikes...but I know better now and you now know better too, so let the past go.

Low Orbit,

it's good to hear from you again!

It isn't "sometimes"... it's ALWAYS. What the consequences will be are possibly yet to be determined, but there are always consequences. Always. Good, bad, and in-between.

I think that God's grace will help to ease the pain of the bad ones, but won't take them away...

PS: I guess I should have mentioned that the above is only my (highly esteemed in my own mind) opinion. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank You MM......I'll be waiting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Patiently this time)

(((((((((((((Weaver))))))))))))) I love you hon!!

I am feeling SOOOOOOOOOOOO much better about EVERYTHING now. I have started reading the book "The Power of a Praying Wife" (Thanks to NBII) and it's been the most powerful thing I've read up to this point.

I can literally feel the presence of the Lord when I'm praying now. I don't think I've been praying correctly this entire time. I KNOW that I am now, and I have the greatest sense of peace I've ever known in my entire life.

I don't know if words can really relay how life changing this is for me. I feel as though the weight of the world has been taken from me and I can truly release my marriage to God. I've been saying it for a long time "Let go and let God" but I was still trying to control/manipulate the situation.............God has taken that from me, he has enabled me to let it go, and I know that everything is going to be fine.

God Bless,

-Caren