i dont start to many threads but i have a nagging problem, i think i know the answer but i am sincerley looking for some advice and similiar experiences...

i have been D'd going on 3 years...i am a BS and my X married the OP within 3 weeks of D...

i have 2 kids...a 16 yr old daughter and 12 yr old son...

ok...here goes.............

two weeks ago, myself, GF and both kids were at the river for a week with a bunch of people i work with...my dd went out of her way and really tried hard to have a MISERABLE time...affected everyone around her, some comments were made by some of the wives...that "she is so beatiful but very angry"...

i know she has gone through a tough time..but my GF has been dealing with the "teen" attitude for over a year and finally made a comment to to dd

"you are so beatiful, but one of the most negative teens i have ever been around, if you could take some of the outer beauty and put it on the inside, you would be a total package"

that....was the "shot heard 'round the world"!!!!

all H*ll has broken loose around me, and now GF is public enemy #1...

so...we get home from river...dd attitude and defiance and dis-respect continues....we discuss boundries, consequences and attituides..

she informs me that she "likes mom and OP better and wants to live with them full time and never see me again"...

i have had my fill...so i say OK...

take her home...drop off and also took away her cell phone, (which i pay for) and not paying for her auto insurance any longer...

i tried to explain that as a young adult, she has two choice...

she can be a young adult and act like a child...or...she can be a young adult and act like an adult...but...

both choices have consequences....she chose to "kick me out of her life"..

fast forward to last night...

XW calls and is REALLY nice...tries to talk me into changing my mind and giving back the items i took away...

XW refuses to set boundries, refuses to be consistant with discipline...

wants to be a "pal" not a parent...

its KILLIN me not to see my dd, but i know i cant give in or be blackmailed with short term fixes...

all i ask from my kids is two things...respect and obidience to rules and boundries....i explain im not friend...im a parent...

over all we have a GREAT relationship but the dis-respect and constant tension and stress caused by dd affects everyone around and her mom refuses to acknowledge theres a problem and paints me as "over reacting"

basically "blameing" me for any problems...

she is a WW and still lives in the fog, btw...

i feel im right by staying firm, and setting reasonable boundries such as respect and obiedience....

over all my dd is a pretty good kid, but has a lot of negativity and anger...she refuses to see our therapist...and i dont think forcing her is the answer...

i miss her, but i think im doin the right thing...i tell her i love her alomst everyday, but unless she accepts her part in the problem and agrees to therapy...

i dont want to see her, because the problems will just compound....

any thoughts????

oh yeah...

the main thing is....if i discipline or hold accountable, the comment was always....i dont care...mom will do this....or do that....

can i...as one parent be sucessful with discipline and setting boudries when the other parent does not???

i feel like im banging my head against the wall sometimes...because i am the one suffering for taking a stand and not accepting bad behavior....

is there a way to balance this if one parent refuses to be a parent????

our custody is equal 50/50 physical/legal...but i will not force dd to see me...this is what im struggling with....

Wow!!

I am going through something akin to this with my step daughter (who is really in all practical terms my daughter, I am Daddy since one year of age) since my WW and STBXW has destroyed our family with her selfish affair from ******.

I had a similar conversation with my SD the other day when she told me that "one of he reasons she was going with me was because we were supposed to go and spend money on something". I stopped the car and looked her dead in the eye, told her I love her more than anything and that I was sorry for what her mother has put all of us through but that I will not be told what you will and will not do. either you want to come spend time with me just like we always have (******, I've been more of a parent to this child than her own bio mother has) or I will take you back to your mom right now. I don't want this but when you are at my home we are going to respect one another and act with integrity, and purpose, not threaten, lie, blackmail, etc.

Well, my SD who granted is just 9, later crawled up next to me, told me she loved me and kissed me before tearing up. The child needs counseling badly and I have offered to pay but the STBXW hasn't done a thing. She is scared to death at what a counselor will say about the child's mental health and the #$%$%$ would have to look in the mirror and take responsisility for most of it and God forbid my daughter's emotional well being taint my affair and fantasyland existence.

You daughter needs counseling. How can you arrange this? I do think sticking to your guns is the right thing. She has one bad example of parenting already and is mimicking the same selfish attitude as you Ex wife at this point. I cringe at the thought of my SD/D ending up being as selfish as my STBXW. I will do everything to present to her another way to be and act.

sorry sturgis...
BUT
you did ask for thoughts....


but it is my belief that you should not date....
should not go away with your children and girlfriend...

daughter is forced to see her home destroyed..

if your boundaries are teaching her it's OK to have a girlfriend and go away...together...
then it reinforces people are replacable....

mom and dad choosing placing and picking adults over and above the kids.....

she has no control
she has no power
she has no say....

its my opinion you ask for respect and then force her to respect YOUR and wifes choices that hurt her deeply..

she feels abandoned
she feels replaced
she feels powerless and meaningless..

ofcourse she acts out...

it's all she can do to release the pain....

her behavior is understandable....

yours...
eh...not so much in my opinion...(and remember YOU did ASK

so I mean it without malace...

I always wonder though how good a relationship would be between a person and a girlfriend/boyfriend if you were only to see eachother.......
half the time
every other week
every other weekend..
or whatever....

people do that to children...
and get apoplexic about putting constraints like that on themselves of who and when they can or can't see people...

I personally think you should work on spending LOTS of one to one time ALONE with your daughter...

she's sixteen...
two years she's gone...

she needs YOU
not YOU and GIRLFRIEND
NOT mom and NEW HUSBAND

you...

just you....

that's what sixteen year old daughters want...
their dads to be dads..
not someones boyfriend.....


put girlfriend on the shelf for a bit...see her when kids ARNEN"T there...

if your girlfriend is a good friend and woman....she will understand...

(does girlfriend have kids that your kids have to hang with?)

two short years....
and then she could be gone from your life..
time is precious and short...

and she is showing signs of distress...
abandon her now...and it will confirm her worst nightmares...

ARK

I think your GF's comment was out of line ...

NOT saying she was incorrect

just saying

silence is golden when you are dating a teenager's parent

Pep

Sturg,

One thing I learned through the destruction of my marriage....

No brainer - you find out that you are only in control of YOUR OWN actions.

No brainer - the kids are now in a completely different dynamic.

No brainer - yeah. As a parent, one must be caution if dating, BUT a spouse running out on you is also NOT a sentence of solitude for the rest of YOUR life.

So I am going to ASSUME you picked the GF wisely.

The one thing I learned was - given all these dynamics, how is that going to change what I had to do each and every day.

And what I had to do (as a parent) is live my life, to the best of my abilities, as an example to my children as to what a man should do and be.

Are you doing that?

Then correcting them, when they step out of bounds, is OK.

I'll tell you this, I have seen happy kids with crappy parents if the parents are CONSISTENT. The world is a scary place, the anchor to our children is consistency as a parent. NOT perfect ... consistent.

EVERY kid in EVERY marriage - "fixed" or "broken" - will test the boundaries. One doesn't know where they are if one doesn't. That is not a "bad" kid, that is a "normal" kid. And a strict, decisive response from the parent to that testing tells the kid where the boundaries are.

If the DD is getting quality time with YOU, the time she needs, and you have a GF that she needs to interact with, well, she needs to respect that.

Question: What if you don't "like" one of her friends that she has over? (And I don't mean don't like in the sense that this kid is a bad influence, I mean you don't like their personality - you wouldn't choose them as a friend yourself). Out of respect for your daughter, you treat them as a guest in your home, right? It is not too much to ask that the daughter reciprocate. How else is she going to learn what "having a guest" means.

People may tell you that the daughter did not "pick" the GF who may become MIL at some point. Well, the daughter didn't pick her mother EITHER. Or aunts, siblings, uncles, cousins, etc. Yet she is supposed to interact with them respectfully. There is no requirement that she "like" the girlfriend, but if it were my daughter, she better be civil to her. And out of respect for your daughter, you at least ought to hear out her concerns - they may be valid.

It is all about setting the example. ESPECIALLY when the choices are tough.

Sounds like you did pretty much exactly what I would have done.

NCWalker

To me, it seems that what your GF said was hurtful, and crossed boundaries she has a responsibility to observe. She is not your daughter's parent, and has no business in your daughter's development and welfare, beyond whatever committment she might have made to you. That was a cruel thing to say...essentially, that your daughter was ugly inside. I would be devastated.

And then you supported you GF against your daughter? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your daughter is 16 - a difficult age to be in the best of circumstances, and she has not had the best of circumstances, has she? All of her puberty has been spent under the shadow of her parents' marital problems, and she seems to be showing the effects of that lack of full parental attention. She certainly doesn't sound happy.

It's important to maintain loving and consistent boundaries with teenagers, but it's so easy to lose the 'loving' part in the heat of battle. They still need to know they're loved, despite how they behave. Letting your GF say such an ugly thing to her - and not defending her against your GF - will not have made her feel very loved, I suspect.

I think you need to clarify with your GF where the boundaries lie between her and your family. I think you also need to explore with your daughter how she feels about the presence of the GF in your life. She's already having to contend with one alien presence - the OM/stepfather. Perhaps two aliens is too much. She should not be required by some kind of parental dictat to accept the GF just because you want her to. ....No, you don't have a right to make yourself happy...not at your children's expense...

She sounds as if she does need some professional help...but for her own sake, not to make her fit into a pattern that's more comfortable for her parents. You and your xW need to make clear that it's her (DD) you care about, not her bad fit to the situation.

I have two older teenagers, BTW.

TA

Agree with the others... while the comment may have been warrented -- it should NOT have come from your girlfriend. If *anyone*... it should have come from you... as dad.

My H has two teenagers (15 and 18) and after five years of marriage i *might* be able to say what your GF said, but then, I am married to their father and they know where I stand with them (I care about their wellbeing, do not discipline them and never have, and never ever tried to take Mom's place). My children (all in their 20's) know the same about my H... and he doesn't give opinions about their lives unless asked to do so (unlike me, who gives it readily and annoyingly all the time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

Hmm. My curiosity is up a little right now.

Why NOT come from the girlfriend? And let me remind everyone, all we have is a sentence.... We don't have tone, body language, etc.

Why the lack of willingness or the apprehension when we hear an adult correct a child? I mean if sturgis GF was being all smart alecky because she was at the end of her rope because Sturgis was letting the DD run roughshod - what then? Or how about if she was just in a bad mood and took it out on Sturgis DD? Or maybe she really cares because she really cares about Sturgis? The situation changes things....

Why is it that we are supposed to bring our peers to task for bad behavior, and not somebody elses children?

I really dislike spurious use of foul language. And have myself made comment to teens in a public place in front of their parents for using it. Some of them (few) apologize. Most have given me the finger, or even MORE spurious language. (Sort of like a doggy bag of swear words, I guess). Is that wrong? The law says that swearing at someone can be interpreted as verbal battery. So it is illegal, at the very least. Noting that there can be quite a difference between "right" and "legal."

Some kids snap to to something like that. I remember my days of vinegar. I didn't buy a thing my old man said. I was too smart for him. But I would listen to other adults. (In some vain hope they would agree with me, and strangely never did.) That's what a teenager DOES.

Look. If your kid is being disrespectful to me - I am NOT going to be quiet about it. I don't care if I am married to you, dating you, related to you, or don't even know you.

Choice of words? Perhaps wrong. We don't know the whole story. I don't know if I myself would have opened with something like that.

What did that have to do with Sturgis question again? I can't remember... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Because what the girlfriend said had nothing to do with protecting her own boundaries - which is all any of us has the 'right' to do to another person. The GF made an observation about the daughter that was intended to hurt - we are all vulnerable to what people think of us, and a child has very little collateral to fall back on to support her own self-image. A parent can just about get away with saying something that hurts, because there's good reason for the kid to believe that the parent has the kid's interests at heart, and that the tough thing is being said with love. A GF does not offer the same reassurance.

I don't doubt that the GF felt irritated and exasperated - the behaviour of teenagers can be very trying - and if she felt personally attacked she had the right to defend her boundaries by saying firmly that she would not be spoken to that way, and if necessary leaving the situation.

No matter what the tone of voice, it is not acceptable to tell another person that their beauty is all on the surface, ie they are ugly inside. None of us know what's inside another person, and to assume something unpleasant is disrespectful and unfair.


Then she takes it up with Sturgis - it's his responsibility for managing his daughter.


How does that excuse cruelty to another human being? Is it OK to hurt people because we're in a bad mood? And if it was a transient bad mood, there should have been an apology; there's been no suggestion of that.


What situation justifies cruelty to a child?


By all means say you don't like being spoken to that way. But insulting the child is a lazy, childish way to feel powerful by exploiting the child's relative powerlessness.

TA

Interesting.

And my "what if" questions were only to provide possibiliteis of different circumstances. I actually agree with how you answered them, TA. There really isn't an excuse to be cruel to a child.

And I DO want to reiterate this, we are not talking about a child. Yes, legally, a minor, but developmentally ALMOST an adult.

I don't know Sturgis GF. I can't say if cruelty was in her heart. Sometimes we are cruel when exasperated. (Again, not as a justification, as a fact.)

BUT. Sometimes people RESPOND to treatment like that. I'm not saying continual harshness or cruelty is the way to as a long-term parenting method, but I daresay many of us could recall a time where we were "dressed down," to use the military term, and deserved it. I can remember a few times where, while it hurt to go through it, I learned from it and adjusted behavior.

Now, was it Sturgis GF RESPONSIBILITY to make that choice? No. Probably just the "way it went down." Not all encounters are planned with the battery of knowledge of proper relational skills at the ready. Some just happen. We can learn from those too. A possible outcome to the exchange is Sturgis DD coming to the realization of how she actually was acting. Maybe she DIDN'T know she was being ugly on the inside. A painful situation results in adrenaline, which equals mental alertness. Maybe she needed that. Sometimes we only learn when we are shown the receiving end of what we have been giving.

Hi NC,

I have been in this situation for going on six years and here's what I've learned (and this is my opinion only):

Children of divorce are a special breed - with more mistrust about adults than kids in an intact home. You have to work doubly (triply) hard at a relationship of ANY kind with them.

If a step child is unruly, you can REMOVE yourself from the behavior -- your boundaries are OF COURSE valid. But discipline? No. Personally, I don't believe a step parent should EVER discipline.

You have no idea (until you're in the situation) how hard it is to foster a relationship with a child who is already hurt, angry and confused - and now having to deal with a new person infiltrating THEIR FAMILY.

While my H's children and I respect each other and there is love there, I've been hurt at times. I've been totally overlooked on my birthday, for example, not because they hate me, but because they just don't think about it. Now before you think I'm crying over this, I'm not. Yes, I've felt hurt and disappointed because I'd hoped for a closer relationship... but I'll tell you this: there are memories and quiet moments with both of these kids that I will always treasure -- when his daughter said how much she appreciated my advice (which she called and asked me specifically for)... and the time his son bought me ceramic cats on a school trip (I collect cats). I could name a bunch of things... like how his son, who has had a lot of trouble in his young life (like my own son has)... how this kid respects me... I've never yelled at him and he HEARS me... do you know what I mean?

It takes TIME to get there (here)... and we're not there yet. It's a work in progress, really...

NB...just a quick one...my children have forgotten my bday, too...and they're my own. Now that they are adults, they disclosed that they didn't feel they could get me anything good enough with what they had, and I choose to believe them (okay, part of me says, what a way out)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Except that my middle son gave me my first pair of diamond earrings, and I believe him a little more, now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />



Now, Sturg...

How does that whole respect thing...where you are not the cause, control or cure for anyone else...get exampled to your DD when you believe she can make everyone miserable at a gathering? Reinforced by your GF? Your GF defined your DD...someone you now know isn't what respectful humans do...we define ourselves. She may not act the way you want her to...your boundary can be to state her feelings, not act them out...and being miserable is not a crime...she cannot make everyone else miserable...not even you, can she?

You cannot control HxWW (I'm adding Horrible...I'm in a mean, defining mood right now)...your boundaries on what you are not paying for is appropriate...they are your gifts...she can earn them herself...however, teaching her to speak instead of act out is in you speaking instead of acting out...and only you can decide if that is what you were doing...and sharing how you feel, with those "I" statements...owning your stuff...examples how to own hers. That she isn't bad, wrong or heaven forbid, ugly...she's caught between a raw wounded child and an angry young adult, trying to control what she cannot...how her what is hers, her power and limit...

Your her Dad.

(And I think what Arkie said about reversing the time thing...how we wouldn't limit visitation with our SO's, yet we do with our children...brilliant.)

LA

NC
you keep alluding to the girls age...

It is my belief that we grownups do our children a great dis-service in NOT acknowledging developmental stages...

the id and ego clash....

their search for identity vs role confusion..etc...

and we place unrealistic burdons on them...in my opinion even more so at times when there is a divorce...AND the introduction of new partners from each spouse...


that we turn around and place ADULT expecations of maturity and responses on to sixteen year old...

lets say..in this case....

especially sixteen year old girls whose lives at the very begining of adolescents was interrupted by a divorce and almost immediate replacement of a male in to her home...

(MOM did this)


I'm sorry but we do plan b here...and it ATLEAST comes with a love letter and a clear direction towards contact..

I am by NO way saying that sixteen year old girls don't know how to give you a good run for your money..
BUT
lets be honest if you lived with your daughter and she was giving you the same run for your money...

NOT talking to her
NOT seeing her
IS not an option,..



but throw in a divorce and suddenly a way to deal with teen angst is to cut them off...

I don't get it...
I don't...

at this point she will process this down to low level basics...

dad chose girlfriend over daughter..
period....

partly because it serves her agenda..
and
partly because it is how she process the world that does and should revolve around her...BECAUSE she is sixteen...
and her brain is using a lot of energy cooking still...

ARK

If you love your daughter- follow arks advice. Do not place your personal life as a BF ahead of your role as a father to your D. Ark is right on, so I will not repeat the advice- just to say I completely second it.

My parents divorced when I was 13. I watched my mom remarry a man I hated, and I hated life as a result. I missed my Dad, I felt invisible to my mom, and you could probably use the same words to describe me as you used for your DD.

2 years. That is all the time you have left to prove to your DD that she is the most important person in the world to you.

You have the rest of your life to be a BF-but only 2 more years to be a dad.

Her mom put the OM before her-now her Dad is putting GF before her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Take the high road and save GF for when DD is at mom's.

You will have GF all to yourself soon enough- and your DD will never forget the sacrifice you made for her well-being.

some great insight...

i was alittle pressed for time yeaterday and REALLY frustated so ill clarify a couple of thoughts now....

dd has refused counselling a number of times...she seems to have a problem maintaining friendships because of negativity (thats my opinion) in watching her interactions with friends..

she has a loving personality, but it dosent come out too often...

as far as GF...there was no choice or support for the comment...the comment is only a TOPIC that is now the focus rather than a symptom of deeper problems...

whether or not GF made a comment, this action would have occurrred because we were on this path for some time...

she is spoiled...i realize this, some of it IS absolutly MY fault...i went through alittle period of trying to be "disneyland" dad...but have really taken a step backward...

the frustration that im having is the original question...

how have others balanced discipline or boundries when the HXW ( horrible x wife) (LA, i like it!!) does everything or goes out of her way to undermind you???

yesterday dd calls me after initially agreeing to therapy...she said that now that she agreed to go, why wont i give her phone or insurance back...

there was NO apology, NO remorse, NO acceptance of responsibility...as a matter of fact, the comment was made "now that im staying with mom, i dont have any problems" (ouch!!)

i again told her, i dont care if she has a phone, i dont care if she gets insurance....those are privilages i have paid for and now, will not...i will not reward bad behavior...these are privilages...NOT necessity...

if she wants a phone, she knows she can buy her own phone and minutes...

THIS is the underlining problem....NOT GETTING HER WAY and not taking responsibility...

btw....GF has apologized at least 3 occasions to dd and knows that although the comment was NOT wrong...it was wrong for her to address it...WE have come to that aggreement and she realizes the mistake...

what has happened is GF opened herself up for the focuof attack....she now knows this...

when dd was reminded about apology....she said "im all out of forgiveness"....i had to laugh...THAT is the only thing she focus's on!!

life is pretty predictable...we ALWAYS spend alot of time dealing with TOPICS but not the REAL problem or symptoms....she is NO different...

one last thing to convey my frustration....

after i told her, i would not return phone....she CANCELLED therapy with HXW blessings....

HXW also told her not to worry...if she lives with her full time, then I WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE CHILD SUPPORT....SO THEY WILL JUST BUY THINGS FROM THAT MONEY!!!!

that is what im dealing with.....

how do you balance discipline when your X encourages bad behavior.....

im at a loss......

btw....i have a appt with my therapist this afternoon and ill pass along these thoughts....(she originally told me about MB) and ill pass along her advice....

One time .... when I was 15

I went on a family car trip with my parents & younger brother.

We were 600 miles from home.
I must have been especially ugly that day ... my parents told me they were putting me on a bus & sending me off to stay with gram ... while they completed their vacation.

They did.

I went to grams.

Teenage girls can be vipers ... even ones with 2 loving parents still married to each other.

I cannot imagine the hurt a 16 year girl old must feel having to share her weekend visits with Dad ... probably does NOT feel like she's #1 on his radar.

my recomendation is

alone time with her

lots of it

re-connect

THAT is therapeutic

telling her she needs a shrink is not especially therapeutic when she already suspects she's damaged goods.

Pep

I'll triple what ark said. Put your daughter ahead of your GF. You may not feel that you are putting GF ahead of daughter, but your DD doesn't know that.

My parents divorced when I was 25. It was ******. I went to spend Christmas with my mother when she was dating her now husband. He felt like an intruder. He was very nice and quiet and respectful, but we still had an attitude towards him. This was especially true when it came time to put up the Christmas tree. He acutally had the nerve to put up an ornament on OUR family tree. It was an emotional reaction at the time and it was more so to the change that had occurred and not to the fact that it was him.

Your daughter's world has fallen apart. The family and home she remembers is gone. Mom is doing things she doesn't like, so is dad. She feels alone and adrift. Take it from me, it was hard at 25, I'm sure it is very hard for her at 16. Leave the GF behind and spend time with her alone. Slowly and sparingly bring GF into picture. She'll get used to her over time and may eventually come to accept her.

Yes, your GF stepped over the line. It is far better to stay quiet and leave the discipling to you. You should have pulled her aside and talked to her.

I remember throwing a fit of anger very similar to your daughters. I was 26. All of it was a reaction to what was happening and the changes in my parent's lives. I yelled at my mother for what she was doing. It was simply a reaction to the changes, and nothing more.

Please be very delicate with your daughter. She needs constant reassurance from you that she is the most important female in the world to you. No one will ever be as important to you. She NEEDs to hear this.

hey pep...

i agree...GF and i have already come to that conclusion...but....

getting to that first step is the hard part....my son is here...he comes over, no probs with GF and no feeling of competition...

i know he is a boy...but WE always ask..."do you care if GF comes?"

EVERYTIME it is ALWAYS...yeah...no prob...

one time they balked at it for some reason...GF understood....but that was over a year ago...

dd is going through a horrible rebellious stage and X seems to encourage it...

heres a question for you considering shes 16...

would you force her to come over??? or give her some space???

any thoughts???

PS....

When there is a troubled family ... the loud obnoxious kids are usually the healther adults later on in life .... while the meek sitting-in-the-corner so-as not-to-be-noticed kids ... suffer MORE problems down the road!

Pep