Since that other thread seems to be closed I had nowhere to go with my thoughts. So lucky all of you get to listen to me "process". Ot at least the lucky ones who give a sh**!

So some of the comments, especially from CN, a FWS who I have always appreciated immensely, left me feeling a bit judged. Interesting, huh? I feel judged for apparently being judgemental. Then I realized it reminded me of earlier times of feeling judged in regards to infidelity. In 1990 my SIL, who was Med to my cousin, had an A and left my cousin. H's whole family within about 5 months were vacationing with the 2 of them. I had an extremely difficult time with the whole affair for many reasons. At one point I even had to have a family event at our home with the OM present. I'm not good at hiding my feelings, especially back then, and was made to feel like a judgemental "B". However, once SIL dumped the OM he suddenly went from being a "really great guy" to being a jerk.

Then in 2000 my BIL left his W for the OW. Again I had to be around the OW at family functions. I had improved this time. I was able to say "Hi" and "Bye" cordially. I still felt like I was viewed as a judgemental "B".

Then a funny thing happened. My other SIL who had always supported the OPs became a BS herself. One year later my H became a WS. I'm sure he thought his OW would be accepted just like the other OPs. However, my SIL was one of our biggest supporters when H's A was revealed. When she suspected H's A she was very cold to our OW. H's uncle is presently with his OW and none of the family really likes her or is that talkative with her. Suddenly I'm not quite the bi*** anymore.

I feel like in recent months I spend a lot of my time telling fellow BSs to give themselves a break for not being further along on the recovery path. I tell them they have experienced a severe trauma and need to understand it will take time to heal from this. That it is normal to feel the extreme pain they are feeling. So I wonder why it is so difficult to understand why it might be hard for some of us to accept MB advice being given to WSs/OPs that got Med? Why supporting an affair couple here on MB might be just a bit insensitive towards people here who had to Plan A or Plan B to save their Ms? Or the people here who are still in Plan B? Or the people who had to go unwillingly to Plan D because their WS wouldn't leave the OP? So is it really too much to ask that that person who Med their A partner maybe seek help elsewhere?

Well, I'm going to climb back up to my high & mighty loft now! It sure is lonely up here!

howz the weather up there?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

.... just letting you know someone has paid attention

Pep

...and sometimes one of the A 2ple members realizes the compounded difficulty of trying 2 save an A marriage that's been subjected 2 infidelity, and stops it:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=15#Post3064250

I a2ally felt "refreshed" when I read that update.

-ol' 2long

CV - I think the Harley's say somewhere - can't quote it chapter and verse though - that BS's still healing might want to avoid certain hurtful threads.

In the case of JJ - she was told 17 TIMES that she has an affair marriage - ie: once a cheater always a cheater, it was doomed from the start, she needs to get divorced, blah, blah, blah.

She is married now, with children, and even thinking about bringing another child into the mess.

I prefer to help her figure out how to make her life better.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />:::craning neck and speaking up to the high and lofty CV::: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now, let me preface this by saying I have no strong stance on this topic, because I haven't thought it completly through. But I was pondering this on my drive home from somewhere the other day, and here's what I was thinking.

I'm 55 years old, and my dad was drafted into WWII along with a huge number of other American men. Those folks served our county honorably and ultimately came home to their wives and families and friends. Life went on... then in the early 1970's Honda, Nissan (fomerly Datsun), BMW, Mercedes began marketing cars in the United States. Well, if you lived through this period of time you KNOW how OPPOSED the veterans (even from the Korean conflict) were about these cars being sold in the US. They, after all were manufactured by the ENEMY. And you know what? Some of those cars are the finest cars money can buy, are trustworth, reliable, hold their value well and perform responsively and responsibly.

Now you can't swing a dead eel (in deference to nbII) without hitting an import car. On top of that the ENEMY is/was so smart they built plants right here on US soil, so you can purchase a brand new Toyota manufactured in Kentucky, of all places.

CV, while I'm still not settled on how I feel about the BS's who come here looking for help when their marriage was the result of an affair, I do tend to think it's a bit presumptuous of us to judge WHO they are TODAY. In fact, perhaps it's not up to us to JUDGE them at all. Perhaps the judgement should be up to a higher power.

Perhaps if we are upset by whatever scenario brought them here, baring their tortured souls for all to see, we should either (A.) help them as best we can, or (B.) if we FEEL judgemental and FEEL like imposing our wrath upon them for the way their marriage came about, then perhaps we should ALLOW people who are doing option A to help them, and NOT come down on the new arrival like a pack of hyenas on a freshly found corpse. What good is that?

What was that silly line in the bible? Let those among us without sin cast the first stone?

I guess I'm leaning towards option A. Help if you can. If you are full of pain and ill will towards a person in need that doesn't live up to your standards, don't post. That way people in need get help, without having to dodge the empassioned stones some might otherwise cast.

JMHO
(ducking to avoid the 2 by's) Maybe there should be a lemon law for marriage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SD

SD,

Here's my 2x4... about this quote:


I LOVE cats. Do you think you can come up with a new way to illustrate your concept? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's all I wanted to say...

... and to CV, I read your words, too... and I don't think you seem all that high and/or mighty... you have thoughts, you're working them through, just like most of the rest of us...

nbII...it's fixed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hmmmmmmmmmm

>scratching chin<

HAHAHAHAHAHA... A dead eel... that's GREAT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I probably shouldn't quote Firesign Theater, then...

"There's a whole dead cat in every bar of Dead Cat Soap!"


Ewww!

CV55,

I can't certainly understand where you're coming from, and I wanted to give you a ((((((((((CV55))))))))) and perhaps offer some things that are going around in my mind too.

Since that other thread seems to be closed I had nowhere to go with my thoughts. So lucky all of you get to listen to me "process". Ot at least the lucky ones who give a sh**!

Yeah....this subject is really volatile and full of triggers. I know as a BS the issue of affair marriages is difficult to separate from my own pain and experience, but if I find I can't....then I'm opting to stay away from those threads that do me harm or offend me.

So some of the comments, especially from CN, a FWS who I have always appreciated immensely, left me feeling a bit judged. Interesting, huh? I feel judged for apparently being judgemental.

I didn't read the particular exchanges involved....but I know what you mean. The whole "judge not lest...." is a complicated one. I've looked and looked at that passage and I've seen so many interpretations of it....it leaves my head spinning. I can only speak for myself when I say that I've come to believe that judgment is a vital part of my life when considering right and wrong. I am free to judge "acts" but it is God's job to judge "people"....is what I've come to believe. The idea that this passage refers to hypocricy is a fundamentalist Christian interpretation and not shared by many biblical scholars....and there are so many others...it's hard to sort through. Frankly....all the biblical interpretation is a bit confusing to me....seems like no matter who you talk to....it's different...I guess that's where free will comes in....I must decide what is right for me....and the above is what I've rested on.

Then I realized it reminded me of earlier times of feeling judged in regards to infidelity. In 1990 my SIL, who was Med to my cousin, had an A and left my cousin. H's whole family within about 5 months were vacationing with the 2 of them. I had an extremely difficult time with the whole affair for many reasons. At one point I even had to have a family event at our home with the OM present.

Memories are strange things....they are linked together like a chain. Steven Stosny describes exactly what you experienced when you felt "judged" by some posters. He says that when we feel that drop in self value....it's linked to all the other similar drops in our past. So when you try to deal with how you feel about a particular issue....you're carrying around this huge long chain of historical feelings from all the similar issues in your life.

I understand why you felt you "had" to entertain these people....because I live with these dynamics too (father is married to his affair partner....mother is dead). In reality....I guess we both have a choice....we DON'T HAVE to anything and no one can "make" us...we choose to because we have to balance our choices and sometimes we only get one of two bad choices. I could refuse to see my father and his affair wife....but in the process I would not see my half-siblings. It's a crummy choice, but I don't want the children to be punished for the acts of their parents so while I don't sanction their marriage....I tolerate their presence. I hate that....and I struggle with it!! You've had to make similar choices that put you in the unenviable position of hosting a party that would be attended by the OM....when the other choice....making a stand....might mean alienating many family members....ick. It's hard because you might think....yikes! why should THEIR poor choices create polarization between ME and my family!! It's not fair. So we often have to choose the best of two bad choices. That happens here on MB too.

I'm not good at hiding my feelings, especially back then, and was made to feel like a judgemental "B".

Here's the thing....neither of us really "has" to entertain these people....and no one can "make" us feel a certain way if we are secure about how we feel about ourselves...right? That's giving people alot of power that they shouldn't have...yanno? How can someone "make" me/you feel something unless I'm "powerless" or beaten down already? Is that their problem?....or my problem? or both? Probably both....because feelings/situations are complicated. They shouldn't criticize you for your feelings....and you shouldn't need their reinforcement to feel good about yourself.

However, once SIL dumped the OM he suddenly went from being a "really great guy" to being a jerk.

Then in 2000 my BIL left his W for the OW. Again I had to be around the OW at family functions.

Again....you had a choice. It's an easy choice to make here on MB....it's a hard choice to make in real life because the consequences are so much bigger.

I had improved this time. I was able to say "Hi" and "Bye" cordially.

In this place....an anonymous place....you don't have the love of a family you're trying to balance against standing firmly against infidelity. You're free to dissent loudly and consistently....but in real life....the price seems too high....the penalty is bigger.

I still felt like I was viewed as a judgemental "B".

So if even civility is met with folks thinking you're a judgemental "B"....why not just remove yourself from that situation? If you're going to be judged either way....why not stay true to your own beliefs....not just here but real life?

Then a funny thing happened. My other SIL who had always supported the OPs became a BS herself.

Yep....it's amazing how when the tables turn....it offers a huge opportunity for clarity, growth and new perspective. I think that opportunity existed for that poster justjilly too. I would have liked to see her come around and recognize the dynamics that were in place then....and that she is suffering for now.

One year later my H became a WS. I'm sure he thought his OW would be accepted just like the other OPs. However, my SIL was one of our biggest supporters when H's A was revealed. When she suspected H's A she was very cold to our OW. H's uncle is presently with his OW and none of the family really likes her or is that talkative with her. Suddenly I'm not quite the bi*** anymore.

So there is hope for this fogged up family afterall? That's the thing that makes it hard for me to ban anybody from this board.....because change of heart/experience/spirit happen as life goes on. Your family in general as well as individual members, have been able to see the consequences of infidelity....and it's changed their perspective. I think there is some of that hope for other people too.

I feel like in recent months I spend a lot of my time telling fellow BSs to give themselves a break for not being further along on the recovery path. I tell them they have experienced a severe trauma and need to understand it will take time to heal from this. That it is normal to feel the extreme pain they are feeling. So I wonder why it is so difficult to understand why it might be hard for some of us to accept MB advice being given to WSs/OPs that got Med?

chere....it's not hard to understand at all!! My goodness....even those folks who are far along will NEVER forget how devastating this experience was. That's why only those folks who don't have strong triggers may be in a position to help stabilize an A marriage that has begun to predictably implode. I guess we could create a board for suffering BS's only....but we all learn from each other.

Why supporting an affair couple here on MB might be just a bit insensitive towards people here who had to Plan A or Plan B to save their Ms?

I support "stabilizing" affair marriages....not "normalizing" them. I could send those folks to other sites that adminster to affairs....but then how does that serve anyone? I can help someone who is in an affair marriage attempt to create a healthier, more stable marriage and that benefits more than just those partners.

Or the people here who are still in Plan B? Or the people who had to go unwillingly to Plan D because their WS wouldn't leave the OP? So is it really too much to ask that that person who Med their A partner maybe seek help elsewhere?

This just isn't my decision. If that's what folks want....a site where only those marriages that most folks deem as legitimate can get help....then it seems like that's a petition they'll have to make to the adminstrators of the board. I've seen some smart WSs....who put warnings on their threads so that those hurting badly enter at their own risk....that seems like a good idea. Things like "may be triggering to BSs" have been used very well. But realistically, the only way to create a board that has all the elements that each individual wants or doesn't want is to create/moderate it themselves.

Orchid came up with the best solution that I could see....help if you can/or want to....guard your heart if you can't. But if we decide who gets run off and who doesn't...then whose call is that going to be? And where will it end? How much censorship will that take?

It's easy to see where we might start in the exclusion process....but that's the problem with exclusion processes....where do they end? What is the line of demarcation between safe to post here....and not safe? If this site is reserved for betrayes spouses....then it's a totally different site. Each of us may define "marriage" differently....but until the Harley's specify differently (and post whose "banned")....BSs, WSs, OPs, affair marriages, gay marriages etc....are all free to post and TOS is supposed to protect everyone.

I think all of us need to define for ourselves what are safe threads to post on for whatever stage of pain or recovery we are in. And I don't think you have to "support" an affair marriage to find some benefit in ending the cycle of infidelity, abuse and divorce. I may never be comfortable with how a particular marriage began....but I can still see the benefit to society, to individual marriages, to children and to God by saying "no" to infidelity and divorce even in affair marriages. I can still find compassion in my heart for a BS even if he/she put herself in a situation where it was predictable.

Some people have to learn the hard lessons of life and the value of fidelity. Still....if they didn't learn it before....I'd still rather that they DID learn it at some point so that eventually....it becomes important enough to STOP the insanity.

We have to find a reasonable balance between honoring the contract we agreed to on this site and protecting the victims of infidelity.

I don't think there's any danger of affair marriages becoming "normalized" around here....but I also don't have a great fear of people helping to stabilizing those relationships when the opportunity arises for those folks to learn from the tragedy first hand. Just like in your family....views change as the consequences become clearer and clearer.

Anyway....blessings to you.

HEEEELLLLOOOOO!!! I just got out my megaphone so you all can here me down there! First an extra "Hello!" to SD who I haven't spoken to in many months!

Thanks all for the comments! Let me just clarify a bit more. At this point I'm really not caring too much about whether JJ posts or not. I agree that if she, or someone like her does post here, it would be wise for someone like me to just stay away. As I said in the other thread I never heard of her before that thread anyway. I will repeat what I did write in the other thread.

First, it just seems odd that with so much effort put out in helping people break up these As that at the same time effort would be put out in helping people in an affair based M. Call me slow here, but I don't really get it. When I was in the Plan A, acute pain stage I'm not sure what I would have done if I saw advice given out to an OW Med to her WS. Sorry, but I'm being honest here.

Second, I gave an example that might seem kind of strong to some, but it still fits for me. Dr. harley himeself said being a BS is akin to being raped. So if I was in a rape support group, and a rapist who just experienced being raped entered the group, well I wouldn't feel too great about that. Again, just being honest here.

In saying all that, I also said that because of the kids it's probably the best for everyone that this M survives. I do believe in forgiveness. I don't believe that every single M is supposed to last, even where there is no infidelity or abuse. Sometime one or both Ss just don't put the proper effort into the M.

So I'm in a "whatever" stage right now. As I wrote in the other thread I'm just not as spiritually enlightened as some here, and I say that without sarcasm. I mean it! Believer, you have enough compassion to be empathetic. I ain't there yet. I think As are evil and ugly. I still hate them! I really don't like WSs or OPs. I don't! If CN is reading this I don't at all think "former" WSs or OPs are lowly human beings. I'm just not ready to give the active WS/OP population a big hug at the moment.

Star, when the 1st A occurred with SIL I was 34. I'm 51 now and over the yrs I learned to detach. I had to because as one IC told me I was between a rock and a hard place. Most people who loves someone who has been betrayed don't have to then spend time with the WS or the OP. I had to do both because H and SIL are brother and sister. Yes, I could have made H's life a livng ******, but I wasn't going to do that to him or my boys. So I did the best that I could at that time. And H's family had no empathy to how hard that was for me. It's very interesting to see the change that has occurred. It took about 20 yrs for H's family to be more like me. You're right, no one makes us feel anything. However, sometimes we just do feel because of circumstances we're in.

I'm putting my megaphone down now. It's kind of peaceful up here. I'm going to meditate and try not to be such a bi***. Mostly I'm going to just tell myself, "CV, give yourself a break for not being Saint CV yet!"

CV - I've been going through this for over 3 years. At first, I was very angry at the OW - in fact much more than my WH. After all, she knew he was married, and chose to cheat on her husband who was fighting in Iraq. She also completely abandoned her 12 year old daughter, and has to this day.

Before she ran off with my WH, she said her husband and only child were the most important thing in the world to her.

As a mother, and wife, I just can't imagine doing what she did. So I have come to believe that there is something missing inside her. She gave up too much to be with my WH. It makes me very sad for her.

I have come to have a lot of compassion for OW. Who would choose a married man? Who (in their right mind) would abandon their only child? Only a desperate woman.

"I have come to have a lot of compassion for OW. Who would choose a married man? Who (in their right mind) would abandon their only child? Only a desperate woman."

Hi Believer! I get the whole "desperate woman" theme, along with pathetic. I'm just not at the compassionate stage yet. Images of BWs and BHs that I have seen here over the past 2 plus years just keep going through my mind. Not to mention the real, live people I know. Good people who were fighting so hard to save their Ms. WSs lying through their teeth, and some OPs laughing in their faces. Cruelity at it's best.

Maybe JJ was a different kind of WS/OP. Maybe she was special in some way. I don't know. I just can't be helpful in that situation and I know it. I'll admit I'd be happy if I read in the paper that Julia Roberts and her H were to split up, or Angelina and Brad. I'm flat out sick to death of people in As! I REALLY AM!

2Long, forgot to thank you for the link!

I think to further CV's point. Even after a divorce, there could still be reconciliation. But it is not possible if the WS is with OP. Encouraging OP and a WS or advising them is immoral and unethical.

GO TO YOUR ROOM, 2long. And I mean RIGHT NOW! Bad, BAD 2long!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Believer....what you wrote in your post is what made me feel
very sorry for justjilly that was coming here for help.

If you read her two threads, some of the posts were SO hurtful and nasty, especially the last few.

She received condemnation for a sin she commited 11 years prior.
(I don't go along with the only way of atonement is a Divorce.)
Just plain Crazy Thinking. That's just my opinion.

Some have said they would not post to someone in an affair
marriage...that is fine.

2BNormal and I have emailed and she (2B) said the personal humiliating 2 x 4's
did NOT help her and only pushed her down.
What helped is those that offered a helping hand and caring advice.

I tried to email you, Believer, but your email address isn't valid
anymore. (The email I sent you came back.)

I had wondered if you noticed in the 'justjilly' thread, there
were a couple posts talking about you. They weren't bad.
Just basically saying you are a nice, forgiving, helpful person.

It is HERE...
It is down a ways on this page on the link.
One from Pep and one from Committed and Lovin.

P.S. Hi there, CV55. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

one filled with entitlement

IWRA -


I'm happy you and 2B are in contact with her.

You know, I was devastated at first, but tend to forget how that felt. My life is good again, and I'm over it. It's a good place to be.

Believer, I didn't word that right.
I meant the 2 x 4's that 2BNormal recieved.
I will go edit that to make it more clear!

I only had the two emails from justjilly BEFORE
all these many threads about her.

I think she got back from vacation with her husband
and children today.

She would probably be too scared to come back to these
forums.

P.S. You are a good role model, Believer!
Especially since you were a BW; you have shown true
empathy for others by the helping hand you offer
to all. You have risen ABOVE your pain.