Sorry for the new thread, I can't change the name of my long one anymore, and would like some immediate advice.

I am just starting to learn about boundaries, and have not gotten very good at it yet. I'm not sure what the boundary should be in this situation..... can someone please help me think it through? Hopefully someone is still around at this late hour.

Tiny bit of background: My H works nights, has 2 nights a week off, Sunday and Monday. These are the only times I get to see him, since I work a regular 8-5 day schedule. His A is over, but he has recently said in MC that he is falling out of love with me because he thinks I have no backbone and he could walk all over me if he wanted to.


Here's the situation for tonight, copy and pasted from my main thread:
(link to main thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=0&fpart=21 )

Tonight, as soon as we walked in the door, H started making arrangements to go drink with a friend whose wife is out of town. I said "You guys can do that over here, then I don't have to stay up late with the boys, since I have to work tomorrow." (H told DS that he could have a friend spend the night, on the premise that he'd stay up to watch them.)

He ignored me.

I said "I would really like it if you'd stay here. Friend can come over here if you want." No response.

"H, this really doesn't feel good to me. You asked me to tell you when I have a problem, but now you are ignoring me."

He said "I'll try to be home by midnight. If I'm not, then call me, I will need a ride home if I stay until then. I don't want to sleep there." Then he walked out the door.

So what are my boundaries here? Don't go pick him up? This friend lives around the corner from OW. I am positive that H has not had any contact with OW recently, but wouldn't that just be a perfect setup to re-start things? Drunk as he11, don't want to drive home, wife is angry that he went out and won't come pick him up, and here's a welcoming bed nice and close by where no one is going to give him a hard time for not being home tonight.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
One step forward, 5 steps back ....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



Can anyone help me with figuring out boundaries here? I am a life-long conflict-avoider. I really am not sure what my reaction should be in a case like this.

Thanks.

-AmI

Your instincts are sound. This has red flags all over it.

A truly repentant FWS would not do this, and indeed would not even ASK to do this, never mind just tell you that's how it's going to be.

How old are the kids? Any chance they are old enough to be left alone long enough for you to do some snooping? Obviously don't leave them if they're too young.

The answer to that question would tell what your response to your H should be. Either way, I would assume the A is on again, or he would not be acting like this.

If it were me, and I was able to snoop, I would (nicely) tell him no dice and then conduct a little surveillance.

If the boys can't be left for that long, I would go ahead and get him, being really cheerful and upbeat a la Plan A, and in the morning begin preparations for Plan B. As well as spending the evening looking on the computer, or wherever else for any intel that might be pertinent.

That kind of entitlement is waaaaaaaay out of control, and to me, the most likely explanation is he is back in C. It has to be ruled out, and even if he is not in C (which I doubt), his disrespect still may take Plan B in order for him to appreciate and honor you.

Thanks, Neak.

I have access to the GPS on his phone, which he never goes anywhere without. He doesn't know I have that access, but I do.

So I know that he's at the friend's house right now (and has been since he left, with only a detour to the liquor store).

Also, this friend has the biggest mouth in the world, so H wouldn't risk bringing any OW there, old OW or a new one if there was going to be one (and I have so much surveillance on him that there's no way there is another OW at this point.)

The kids are 13, they can be left alone for a little while. They are supposed to be in bed right now, anyway, so they won't come out of DS's room (although I know they are not really in bed).


So do you think that Plan B is the only boundary-enforcement option that I really have left at this point? I do not like the option of not going to pick him up -- him drunk-driving home or ending up at OW's are way too likely to happen if I don't go get him.

Thanks for any more clarification you can help me with on this. I am still working on figuring out the boundary thing.



As a side note, I wanted to tell you that your thread was one of the first on here that I read, and I was so inspired and caught up in it, I read it all the way through. I think you're really great. I also lost a son late in pregnancy, so I felt a bit of a connection with you. Thanks for posting to me!

-AmI.

Ami, Plan B is not something that should be jumped into in a reactionary way, says the pot to any kettles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you handle this as Plan A, you will continue to be as nice as possible, verbally expressing your 'not-okayness' with his actions. He does need consequences, no doubt about it, but since you can't spank him, lol, all you can do is remove yourself from the chaos and untrustworthiness he embraces. But not tonight - the notice is too short, and you don't want it to be reactionary anyway.

I really understand the need to enforce consequences, especially with a frying pan. The need is good and healthy (minus the frying pan), and he really needs to respect you. But with such deep roots in his behavior, it's not going to happen overnight.

More in a minute....

I think it was only on my original thread, not the fog thread, but as I was figuring out how to deal with renewed C after the false recovery, someone suggested packing a contact bag, as a consequence part-way in between doing nothing, and a full-out Plan B.

In your case, without proven C, it would be more of a trustworthy bag.

"I am not willing to attempt to recover with you unless you are ready to show me that you are now trustworthy. This [list of all you need for recovery] is what I need in order to heal. Are you willing to give this to me?"

If yes, "Here is a bag packed with enough to keep you for a couple of days, long enough for you to arrange to collect the rest of your belongings. I will set it right over there in the corner. You may stay as long as you are willing to live up to your part of the bargain, but the moment you again choose to violate this agreement, you are choosing to use this bag, and to leave. I cannot control what you do, but I will not be around you if you are not willing to show me that you have changed."

If no, "Here is a bag packed with enough to keep you for a couple of days, long enough for you to arrange to collect the rest of your belongings. I cannot control what you do, but I will not be around you if you are not willing to show me that you have changed."

And if you still don't see continued improvement after that, prepare for Plan B.

Maybe someone can come up with a better idea, but if so hopefully they will still be up late. That's my opinion, anyhoo. So glad you have the GPS!

I smiled that you read my thread, and I'm glad my experience could be beneficial in encouraging someone else in the same predicament. {{{{{{{{AmI and dear baby}}}}}}}}} How wonderful that we will both have our sons, perfect and alive, when we reach heaven.

If I don't see you back on tonight yet, I will take a peek in the morning to see what happened. All the best, and sending up a prayer for you and your family. You are strong, much stronger than he thinks, and will do very well with this.

Thanks, Neak, for your help last night.

I'm really not ready for Plan B, so I just couldn't figure out what my options were for boundary enforcement.


The update is that I saw (GPS) him leave and go to a bar that he and OW used to go to together. I gave him a few minutes, then called him and as sweetly as anything, asked if he wanted a rie home. He actually told me he was at the bar, but he wasn't ready to come home yet, and he'd call me 'in a couple of hours' to come get him (so at 2 am, and I have to work this morning). He also said that he'd need a ride back to friend's house, because that's where he left his truck.

SO alarm bells were going off, and I went totally reactive. I drove down to the bar where he was, the entire way, just positive that I'd walk in to see him and OW. I was prepared for a fight -- THE fight, final showdown kind of thing.

But I got there, and it was just him and friend, and they were just telling "war" stories about work. So I hung out and had a beer with them. A couple of other guys showed up that they know, and we all chatted for a while then went home. It actually turned out to be relatively pleasant.

I guess the end result turned out ok, but this reactive thing is not good for me. I really need to learn how to set good boundaries.

I like the trustworthy bag idea.... might have some logistical drawbacks for us related to the kids, but at least it's something. I was totally blank last night!

Thanks again for your help last night.

-AmI

AMI,

To enforce a boundary you first need to define where that boundary IS? Where is the line between tolerable and intolerable. Real boundaries are non-negotiable. Whatever the consequences are....they are about what you will do to protect yourself from his bad choices....not how you will punish him if he crosses the line.

The situation you're talking about seems to me one that needs negotiation rather than a boundary. The "boundary" area is contact with the OW I think, because you can tolerate a certain amount of socializing as long as it feels SAFE to you. But the "going out" with no real agreement on when he'll return may be something that can be negotiated instead.

You said:

I said "I would really like it if you'd stay here. Friend can come over here if you want." No response.

"H, this really doesn't feel good to me. You asked me to tell you when I have a problem, but now you are ignoring me."

Be clearer. "H, I'm not in agreement about you going out and leaving me behind to watch the boys while you socialize....especially since you're the one who arranged the sleepover. I'm not happy about the proximity of your friends house to the OW either. What's in it for me? And why would you think I'd be okay with this plan? I'm willing to look at alternatives that take my feelings into account....but I'm not willing to just watch you walk out the door without knowing that I respect myself too much to simply complain and give in. I want a BETTER deal."

IMO, hanging out in a bar the OW uses would violate a boundary, too. Even if he didn't arrange to meet her there, he had to know she could drop in.

Perhaps it could still be negotiated the way Star suggested, and I really like her dialogue - you can just feel the power glowing from it, but I think it needs to be expanded so he's not sitting in OW's back yard waiting for her to notice him. Sooner or later, she will. He needs to avoid places she frequents if you are to feel safe, and that is bigger than just going to his friend's house.

I also liked Star's point that it's up to you to decide what is a boundary (refusal to respect a boundary is a dealbreaker), and what can be negotiated.

It is good that he was honest with you about where he was, and that is certainly progress. But how much better to call you and say, "My friend and I are going to have a few drinks. XYZ Bar is closest, but I don't want to go there because of you-know-who, so we will be at ABC Bar instead. Can you pick me up at [whatever time]?"

In everything he does, he should always be thinking first of you, and protecting you, which means protecting your feelings and trust. It should be the same for you with him. Unfortunately you can't MAKE him respect you; you can only show him that you are worthy of respect and hope he takes it from there.

Some Star-power will go a long way toward making that happen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Neak,

I agree 100% that the "affair bar" should be off limits. Unfortunately....he made that decision later....but even after the fact, I think it's important that AmI lets him know that she won't tolerate socializing in bars that put their marriage at risk for contact.....I agree that he is hoping it will just "happen" and he can claim innocence...phooey on that!! It was incredibly insensitive.

Of course enforcing boundaries means "not tolerating" those things....so be prepared to follow through or it's not a boundary it's co-dependency and enabling. Take back your power, AmI....he does what he does because he can. It's better to assert yourself, get your taker to the negotiating table, even raise a little conflict.....rather than letting this man walk all over you. The first step in getting his respect....is to respect yourself and stand up for what you know is right and negotiate for what you need....calmly. Right now, you need safety, the opportunity to heal and build trust. If he's not willing to provide those things.....then he's not really remorseful and ready to rebuild the marriage.

Get out of victimhood.....he keeps you there because it serves his needs. When you negotiate for what you need....ask yourself this question "what's in it for me?"....is this a good deal for me? Or will it create resentment from me....and entitlement from him? If you let that happen....you're not serving yourself, him or your marriage.