Hi everyone. OK, here's what I need advice on now, lol. And I appreciate everyone's advice and help that has been given and will be given.

So I am getting extremely mixed signals from BH. Yesterday at Home Depot he told me that when we were friends again I could joke with him- where before it was, "we can never be friends again." He's also indicated in the past couple of days that after several years he MAY be able to forgive me- when before it was never could he forgive.

Then LAST NIGHT- not 3 hours after getting home from Home Depot- we were back to "I really don't like you, I really don't think I can ever forgive you, I am just here for dbaby and though I have no plans to divorce you I could change my mind at any minute.It takes 2 to have a good marriage and I am not willing to work on it." He describes what he wants as "parents with benefits," though last night he said, "I dont' even want to have sf with you, I can take care of myself."

Is this normal???? Should I just be glad he's not divorcing me? Yesterday I was thinking, "I did something horribly wrong, but I also deserve to be happy and I won't ever be happy in this marriage." But then I thought, "I don't even want a divorce, maybe we can just co-exist like room mates, maybe it will be all right or evolve back into a marriage."

Is what he is doing to me normal? Do I just take it? How should I react?

I need to read the LoveBusters book, it's unpacked now.....and work up a good plan A.....

Thanks for your input.

Hello,
I am in the position of your H right now...we are trying to move forward and I am trying not to LB and give my WS space to try and undo all he has done since I realize it didn't happen overnight.

We have been through the "let's just try being friends and build from there", we are trying to spend more time and do more things together and have increased family time. I do not trust anyone at this point due to the events that led to this point in our lives. My H is aware of how I feel. Trust is not rebuilt quickly and takes time, work and effort from both parties.

To your question...I don't know how normal I am but one minute I will be optimistic and be happy to have the opportunity to try and recover my M and then a tiny trigger be it a fleeting thought of OW, song, place, comment or even just a new piece of information can send me spiralling into a place of darkness and sadness, anger and all of the initial hurt and humiliation and indignation pop-up to the surface and I'll feel that maybe this isn't worth the effort. I just yesterday went from an optimistic reassuring comment to H all the way to stating that I don't even want to be friends and think that trying to spend time together is a waste of time at this point. I really felt it at the moment. 4 hours later I was optimistic again, go figure...it is a horrible fluctuation of emotions stemming from uncertainty, fatigue and multiple other factors.

Both parties need time to deal with the emotions and grief related to post-A fall-out. Just as BS are patient during the A and hang in there to recover it takes much longer than the A development for BS to start to process all of this. We are so busy trying to be our best during the A that we delay our own healing to salvage the M. Just like people running on adrenaline during and immediately after a traumatic event they usually hit the wall once the trauma ends and take a good long time to overcome the damage it has inflicted. Empathy, comfort and acknowledging the pain and anger can be helpful. Just as we recognize fog talk and try not to take it personally we too verbalize our fluctuating emotions. We do feel what we say at the time we verbalize it...validate it by saying, "I am sorry you feel this way and realize the role I played in hurting you...

these things did not happen overnight and will take much time and effort to get through...be patient and supportive if he didn't love you and care about your M he wouldn't have hung in this long

MrsRob,

I would say it's normal and in some ways not. It is normal when he changes his stance about the R and M. It's not because he appears to be trying to punish you. This is the "Rollercoaster" everyone talks about.

I have been at this for 9.5 mos and it's still hard dealing with the days when I feel down and ask myself is this really worth the trouble and heartbreak? When you look at it from a BS's point of view what are you getting in return for your effort? A woman who would willingly lay with another man, whose values and morals are full of holes, a person you thought you could trust with anything and everything has betrayed that trust. Not much of a deal for the BS is it. But as a BS who wants to make the R & M work you have to suck it up and get over your pain, try to think of the good things your WW does and continue on. He will get there, it just takes time. It looks like he is getting there, but when he recognizes it he goes back into the poor me pity party mode and tries to punish you. Just my .02, for what it's worth.

Good Luck and keep up the good work, I do see some good signs of hope and his healing in this thread.

Thanks Eagle, and Happy Birthday!

The thing is, I dont' know if he really wants to make this R & M work. He says he doesn't.

And he is definitely into punishing me for this. It's funny- he wants my input on everything, but then if things don't work out the way he wants it to he can blame me.

Here's the thing. I just wish that he'd see the repentant person that I am and the changes I am making. He just focuses on the bad, always. Nothing is good, not even the new house (that he picked out and bought, btw!!). I see no light at the end of the tunnel. I just wish he'd show some love. But he says he doesnt' love me- though he says it when we hang up the phone and when we say morning and night prayers. I asked if he wanted to stop praying as a couple since he didn't like me, and he said, "It's always a good idea to pray."

He is just so so so so angry.

MrsRob,

It has been my observation and that of others that the BS goes through an angry phase right around the 4-6 month time after d-day. It is conjectured that this anger is the pain coming out as the BS realizes the marriage can be saved. At this point they stop withholding things and let things out.

Now, it could be your H is truely done with this marriage. It is possible he is still in the healing phase and is having a hard time swallowing that he wants the marriage and you, and yet somehow you "got away" with this affair, if he lets you back in.

I think you need time and patience. But, I also think you need to set some boundaries. I am thinking one of them is that you will NOT remain in a loveless marriage. You can very kindly tell him you will do all that you can to rebuild this marriage, and make amends for your decisions, but you will not tolerate abuse and you will not remain in this marriage if he cannot find love for you.

You don't issue a time line, nor an ultimatum, but you do let him know what your boundaries are. This is a tough time in recovery and as Harley says recovery is a "narrow" road. So move along slowly, make no hasty decisions, and know that more often than not time is on your side. Sometimes a BS just cannot get over it, but often they can. You guys are only 4 months our right now, and that is still early.

Hope something I said is of help to you.

God Bless,

JL

MrsRob,

JL has some great advice. Please listen and understand.

In my case my WW will not say ILY ever, then backs it up with "Do you want me to lie to you?" So if he is still saying ILY then there is a great amount of hope. Hang in there.

The B-Day card I recieved last night said "I hope you had a good B-day." Nothing else. So hope is rapidly falling away for me, I believe my Love Bank is empty as well. You do have something there, a small spark or embers, fan them to flame as best you can and try to get the fire burning brightly again.

Good Luck and Hang in there!

I think I got to the heart of the matter last night with BS. He said he "feels pathetic" for staying married to me. HE said, "I'm the pathetic one, staying married to a person who would do this to me." I told him I did not think it was pathetic to try to forgive, that it was very Christ-like of him. But this morning we were back to a low on the rollercoaster. I had to cajole, but he did say prayers with me and kiss me good bye. I know it really helps that I always apologize for my betrayal and tell him how sorry I am that I hurt him badly.....

And JL, that is a big part of it- he says that if he stays married to me then I "win."

But I do have the trump card- our little girl, whom he loves deeply and he doesn't want her to be harmed by a divorce.

Eagle- It's hard when you feel like your love bank is empty. But maybe you can run on "fumes" for awhile- it would be worth the sacrifice in the short term for a good outcome in the long term. But set a time limit- fumes don't last forever. And she did remember and get you a card....isnt' that something?

And 2much hrtbrk, I am sorry for your sitch. I see so many people here who are BS's who truly want their marriages to work, who really do everything they can to save their marriages. It makes me sad becasue I wish my BH would be more like that.......

MrsRob,

I see you and your H think the same way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I don't have time right now but will be back. But, just think about what your comment implies to your H. You both are looking at this completely WRONG.

Think, and think some more.

God Bless,

JL

it's average ... I think it's difficult to apply "normal" to recovery

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

keep going ... this is OK

Pep

JL, I dont' mean to imply that I'm using her as a "weapon," just that his desire to be with her will give me the time I need to show him my true desire for him and our M.

I asked him if he could see that I was trying to make changes in our marriage, and he said, "not really." I then told him that in my opinion he is trying not to see that I 'm making good changes in myself and our marriage because if he acknowledged that then he may have to acknowledge that he can forgive and have a good marriage with me.

I wish I had tried harder in my M long before this. But whose tagline here says something like, "I wish everyone could have an extreme emotional event to help them change their behavior." DH calls it "athiest in a foxhole,"- as in, there ARE no athiests in foxholes. I'm trying to keep the athiest in a foxhole attitude- ie trying to make sure that the changes I'm making are for good and not just to save my marriage and then go back to how it was- without needing the foxhole!!

mrs Rob

Your old M is dead

Things can only go back to "the way it was" if you allow that to happen .... you are headed out to new territory

be brave

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Mrs.Rob,

Pep has made some important statemente. Are you listening to her? You should be.

You said
Yep, pretty normal/average I guess. But, what makes this different is that your marriage was not good before this was it? So all of the times you "won" in those arguements. All of the times he backed down. All of the times he felt he had to "win" are coming back.

Mrs.Rob, he views your marriage as a contest of wills. Of oneupmanship, if get her before she gets me. Further, I would guess he feels he will be a ****** wimped man if he takes you back. AND looking at the history at the bottom of your post you must realize that he sees something YOU don't see. Do you know what it is?

It is the downside of life. IF he cannot keep you happy when he is 50, how will he do it when he is 60 and you are a mere 46? He has a huge problem on his hands. He also probably has considerable pride and he is being asked to swallow that as well. At least that is very likely what he is thinking about.

Now Mrs. Rob what was it about your marriage that makes him think you two compete? What was it about your marriage that would make him think YOU are not on his team, other than the obvious situation of the A? What was it about your behavior the contributed to any of the things I mentioned.

Mrs.Rob, love is an important ingredient in a marriage, but a more powerful one is friendship, support, and care. In the long run these latter things really really count. Your job is to get on HIS team so that you two are working together, not in a "win/lose" situation.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that you have to understand what HE lost when you had the affair. Then once you can begin to catelogue (sp) these things, begin to talk to him. Discuss what a really great marriage would be in his view. How would he and you approach obtaining such a marriage. What are your dreams? Do you respect him? Why? Is it because he is older? Or is there more.

The point here is you need a plan, and running around and saying "I'm sorry", "I love you." is not a plan and frankly doesn't often begin to reach the real wounds.

You need to THINK. You need to reTHINK. You need to understand why YOU want to be married to him and then you have to figure out how to give flesh to the saying that the best revenge is a "live well lived."

Please do some thinking and then come and talk with us, especially Pep, she has a way of cutting to the chase that can really help you.

God Bless,

JL

PS: What you mean to imply has nothing to do with this. It is what your H thinks...and that is that he is stuck and you will "win" because he "has to remain" for the child. So be very careful with this.

Mrs. Rob... this is a tough one for him. It is extremely tough being in any relationship and I have also struggled with this thought.

Speaking as a man... we try and understand what a woman wants... I was giving and giving prior to my W's A, because that is what I thought she wanted. I sacrificed myself, my needs and beliefs, my masculinity for her... again, because I thought that's what she wanted.

What happened... I smothered her and appeared weak, needy, and possibly pathetic. She had an A with a smooth talking taker... sort of the "bad guy", masculine type person. This is not to say that I can't be masculine... I love rough sports and doing different "guy" things... but I stopped taking risks and stopped asserting my masculinity... I didn't "lead" the household.

There is an extremely fine line here... and I believe it's mostly about an attitude.

Now, I waver back and forth about what is right for me.

I do the hard work and forgive, stay with my family... but does that appear like I am afraid and still weak???

Or...

Do I say I am "better" than this and worth more and leave.

I generally believe that staying and fighting for my family and all the hard work that takes is far more "manly"... but sometimes I have doubts. I still wonder if this will happen again (it is my W's 3rd A... but only really found out about them all together)... and am I pathetic to stay. Can she ever respect me... will staying eventually gain her respect? There are so many questions a BH goes through... even more than deciding whether or not they love the WW (or FWW). I have no doubt I love my W... but I still doubt whether I should stay married to her.

Hope this doesn't confuse the situation even more...

Shaden

Pep- yes, I agree with that- I wish BH did....I want us to get to the marriage we should have had all along. And I am willing to fight for it. I just wish I didn't feel so insecure, like he will file for D at any time...he says he won't, but who knows? I know, I know, who knows anything, I just need to have faith, I'm working on it, lol.

JL- yes, friendship support and care are what is missing. I always feel that if I "get my way" with anything then he'll be mad at me. And if I'm honest with myself, he probably wouldn't be, or if he were, he'd get over it. And the respect thing....well, that is an issue for me. I'm not sure I do respect him. I do in some things, but as an example, he was getting angry at me yesterday for being a crappy housekeeper.....which I admit I can be......but he doesnt' even work 40 hours a week and rarely lifts a finger around the house, except to cook. I make almost 3x what he does, and it's like I have to be the "man" as well as the woman. I am tired of that. If I ask him to do things around the house he says, "that's why we have kids." So I am extremely frustrated with this.....and of course, it's magnified x 1000 in the current sitch... So I really don't know if I want to be married to him. I mean, I think I do, then he'll do something so mean or crappy or belittling I think, wow, there's got to be something better out there for me.....but if I want to pursue something, I have learned that it's best to end the current relationship before starting anything- no matter what I think of BH, he doesnt' deserve what I did to him. And I really do love him, and want to stay married and the kids are glue also..

And also, for another example, last night we had SF, and then this morning he was angry because it was "only once on my Friday night (he has Thursday and Friday off, so he counts Wed night as his "Friday."). So nothing I do is good enough. And I'm always asking if he's going to file for D......like maybe I'll force him into it by keeping the thought alive and then it will all be over and done with, the other shoe will have dropped and then I will have less stress. But he says he's not going to, but who knows....

Sometimes I see light, sometimes I don't......

Shaden- I honestly believe, and I told BH this, that staying and trying to work things out, especially when there are children involved, is the more "manly" and mature thing to do. In your situation, I think there are other better ways to assert your masculinity, like sticking to your boundaries. Hard I know, I'm not good at it...it's like I try to be what BH wants so he won't leave me, at the expense of me.....sometimes I don't even know who "me" is anymore.

You know what the problem is?? It's that he's his own person and I have no control over his actions!!! LOL!!!! If I did I would have him forgive me and allow me to show my true remorse and have a great marriage.

Bump- all advice, comments appreciated.......

ahhhhhhhhhh

even if/when

he forgives you

he will still feel hurt

I know that's a tough one for you to swallow just now, but it's true

when you show true remorse, it helps him intellectually, but the emotional pain is much trickier to soothe....

MOST BS require a full 2 years to feel normal again

2 years ... even if you do everything correctly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

pep

I can agree with Pep... sort of. I haven't made it to the 2 years yet, so I haven't experienced normal again... but everything else sounds right to me.

I forgive me FWW and I believe I understand all the different possibilities of how it can happen... and I even sympathize with her... I believe that she hurt herself more than she hurt me.

BUT... I still feel pain and doubt and anguish nearly every day. My beliefs about her...myself...us...our past and future are all changed. Some of these changes are positive... I will no longer take our marriage and relationship for granted. But each look of anger or sadness, each time she wants some alone time or time with her sister or Mom... I wonder.... and I remember... and I hurt.

The hurt generally doesn't last long any more because I know enough now to look at things differently... but it is still there. Sometimes the hurt is good because accompanying it I can see all the positive changes I've made. But still I long for the day when I can go through one full day when I don't think about it at all.

Dealing with this pain is now my issue. My FWW is doing what she can, but she can no longer take this pain from me. As Pep indicated... you can help by showing remorse and doing the right things, but I believe you can only do so much... the rest is up to him. Part of what he may be dealing with is fear... that it will happen again. One thing that can fix that is time... time showing a constant flow of love and remorse from yourself. In time, his fear should subside and he will trust your love again.

Shaden

Hi Mrs Rob,

I'm a FWW and my H and I are 4 years past d-day. Recently he shocked me by saying he still has resentment towards me for the way I acted the first year after d-day. That has caused me to look back and wonder what I wish I had done differently. Maybe there is a timeline of events that spouses have to go through after an A that cannot be altered, but if I've learned anything that might help someone else learn faster, I would like to pass along that information.

One thing it took me two years to figure out was that how my H felt about my A was more important than the way I felt about it. In other words, his feelings had to come first - for example, no arguing and telling him his perception of the A was wrong. In other words, I had to stop being anxious to "defend" myself. (I’m not saying you do this, but it was a major epiphany for me (albeit tardy), so I thought I would mention it.)

I wish during that first year I had concentrated on putting his feelings first. I know you are still unsure you want to stay M, which is a nagging question a lot of us in this situation have. I know you work hard and you want your needs filled and your wants heard. However, the A has created extenuating circumstances in your M, and some of the routine stuff will have to be put on hold until you and your H both feel better (it takes a long time, by the way). Actually, I wish I had put his feelings first throughout our M - not to the extreme of being a doormat, but rather along the lines of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Some advice I would give you is to keep the house cleaner, even if you think he should be helping more. Get your children to help, or if you can afford it, pay someone to help (POJA this with your H). It might not seem "fair" that you have to swallow your pride or do what he wants, but at least this is something you know for sure that he needs you to do, instead of having to constantly try to read his mind or figure out his moods.

It is wrong that "he'll do something so mean or crappy or belittling." I don't know if you're in IC or MC, but you could both benefit from talking to someone and learn how to communicate in a respectful way. I know it can be hard to get another person to go to counseling to deal with his/her anger. My H is still trying to work through his anger alone (we went to MC for 8 months after d-day, then he got burned out with it). It seems to me that C is the best way for all of your issues to be addressed, if it's possible at all to go - and/or read all you can about communication.

For some reason (blame fog, self-centeredness, stubborness, whatever), I think it is really hard for some women who have had an A to really understand how having an A attacks our H's sense of manhood. It is a "macho" thing that might go back to the caveman days, but I think it is something that women have a hard time relating to. What I'm saying is, I think it took me 4 years to really finally understand the full impact of the damage I did to my H's ego. He also has been berating himself for 4 years because he chose to stay with me after what I did. He thinks other men will lose respect for him, and that they will think he is a wimp because he didn't kill FOM. It still really eats him up. I don't know if there's anything we can say or do to help our H's with that, except to do everything we can to build up their egos now.

One other thing, if you have to give up something with your H - don't ask for it to be prayer time!

God bless,
Rose

MrsRob,

I really like what Rose just said to you, please consider it.

Ok, it is empathy time here at the old MB corral. Let's say YOU have been betrayed, and you are very hurt, and you are not certain about making the sacrifices necessary, including swallowing your pride and putting your "feelings" aside.

And you Spouse does the following, he says:
Notice the bold parts. How do you think you will feel if you hear those two thoughts back to back in a short period of time. Do those comments make YOU want to commit to the marriage? Do they settle your uncertainties? Do they comfort you?

Of course they don't because this is exactly what you are complaining about your H doing, except you are doing them to him as well. The only difference in this little equation is that there is no balance because on one side of the scales is something called an affair and you had it. Your words, your thoughts carry a lot of wait because he KNOWS you will cheat on him and dump him. You don't KNOW if he will do that to you.

Don't you think it is time one of you stood up and decided to commit to the marriage? You are not committed and yet you complain that he isn't. I would suggest that his ACTIONs suggest he is, because he hasn't filed for divorce due to your affair. He is still there dealing with the pain and disrespect you showed him. As you said "he did NOT deserve" what you did.

Mrs.Rob, you need to decide if you are really going to commit, not just commit when you feel he is receptive to your approach to things. The man is messed up, he will not start acting right for awhile, and he will be facing the issue of whether or not he is a wimp for taking you back for many years as Rose has suggested.

This is really your call. You need to take a step toward this marriage rather than sitting back in defensive mode.

Please consider this.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you thank you thank you Rose and JL. Exactly what I need to hear this morning. I am so worried that he is just going to leave that I LB all over the place being needy and whiny and clingy and crying.....though it is getting better....last night was awful.

Rose- did your BH go through a period of time where he didn't want SF with you? We are 4 months out of the EA, and have had more SF than usual.....now he does not want any "for awhile." He has said this before but I've been able to convince him to have it...but last night and this morning he threatened to D me if I tried anymore.....but SF is totally important to him- always has been- and I'm so afraid that if he doesnt' even want that from me then there's no hope....

JL- it's so hard to really want to commit when I feel like I am just trying to make our marriage what HE wants and nothing what I want....but I suppose if it's what he wants it should be what I want too- and he'll be willing to give me what I want in time, hopefully.

Pep- last night BH told me I killed our marriage, and I agreed with him. THen I asked him could we please re-build it into the marriage we should have had all along? He rolled his eyes in disgust.

THis morning he said "I am not leaving this marriage. YOu might walk out, but I won't." then not 20 seconds later, "It's a big possibility that we're going to get divorced."

I need to commit and then ACT like it. Be the wife and mother God wants me to be......

I'm so so tired of crying...