I wrote a letter to WBF last night to tell him how I was feeling. I told him it wasn't his fault. He didn't make me feel that way. It's my stuff.

Later, we had a conversation about it. I guess we kinda had a little argument. He was telling me things that should've boosted my ego, but I felt like he was just saying those things to try to make me feel better. He said that the reason he didn't want to write it is because he knew I would use it to compare us. I told him that wasn't my intention, but if he knew that I would and that's why he didn't want to do it, then it must mean that he feels she is/was superior to me or he wouldn't have been worried about it. I know, a DJ. I'm still working on those.

That was my point, though. My insecurities come from him feeling that she is better. If he didn't feel like she was better, then I would feel adequate. Still my feelings. I still own them. I know HE isn't making me feel that way. I'm choosing to feel that way from the information he gave me. Not his fault.

He said that SF is the only way he knows how to show intimacy and now I'm trying to take that away. Intimacy is what I am striving for. He said that I always punish him for being open and honest. My intentions weren't to punish him and I didn't want him to feel that way.

There were alot of attempts at persuading me to think differently. The conclusion that was drawn by the end of the conversation is that he feels OW is better in the physical aspect of SF and I am better in the emotional aspect of SF. I guess I'm just going to have to accept that and find a way to move past it. His argument is that comfort is better than excitement to him. Not sure if I believe that.

He kept making sexual advances toward me and I kept shying away. Every time he tried to touch me, I found a flaw and became self conscious. He wasn't letting up and so I just decided to face my fears. So, we had SF.

I was VERY self conscious and insecure. We kept having to stop because I would burst into tears. I get over it a few minutes later and we'd start again. Mental images tried to haunt me 2 or 3 times, but instead of trying to disconnect myself mentally like I would have before, I quickly dismissed them. It was the first time I was emotionally present (for the most part) during SF in over a year. It was emotionally overwhelming. It was almost like it was the first time we'd ever had SF. I was insecure but it was also very intimate, which is unusual for us during SF. It's usually just sex and that's it, at least for me.

So, I would have to say that knowing the details served it's purpose. Now, I have to get over feeling inadequate and we'll be okay. At least in that department.

Hang In,

I've been right where you are. OW in my case is very sexually experienced. I am not. I was up against the competition of thinking that she knew things about giving a man sexual excitement that I didn't have even the slightest knowledge about. Talk about feeling inadequate. Also, she was slimmer, etc.

So, I went through a phase much like you are experiencing. Sometimes, I still have flashes of it. Lots fewer now, and much less intense - plus, I've figured out a few things.

First of all, your body doesn't mean anything. Sex takes place in a man's mind. Look inside your own mind to figure that out - same thing for a man. You have the images, the emotions, the tears? That's because sex and emotion, they are all tied up in your head. It's no different for your BF. He's trying to make love to you because he wants you to love him again, he wants you back close to him, and that is how he connects to you. And with her, he missed that part - he told you that. The physical part wasn't enough for him.


One thing that happened in my situation that verified this was a chance phone call with OW. Now THAT was strange. She had been a "friend" (yeah, right). Anyway, I told her that I felt like she had ruined any chance that I might feel sexually adequate again. Our conversation ran a long course, but to sum it up, she talked about never having been in love with anyone - including both of her husbands. I asked how she could have sex and not be in love, that it must feel empty. She said she didn't know it could feel any different besides just physically pleasing .................. and with those words I knew I WOULD WIN.

And so will you. Your BF is there because he found the difference between having sex and making love.

One is empty.


But you already knew that.
SB

HNT,

"My insecurities come from him feeling that she is better."

Would you consider that him believing she was better sexually HIT your insecurity, which is inside you...that pervasive self-doubt which continues, leaping up when you can get any evidence to support it?

He didn't make your insecurity nor can he unmake it. Him stating you are better will not remove that insecurity...it will lay back down until any other evidence you scrabble up gives it reach again...to strangle you.

And it sounds like you are taking HIS truth and THE truth...and it isn't. You know that. I know you know that. A sex can appear to be better...not for any real reason, but the fantasy ones...there's no history (hence, no resentment), a clean slate...it can feel like a total act of acceptance without reservation...it isn't...can just feel that way. As my WH said...feeling like it was a conquest went to his admiration, acceptance, appreciation ENs...and fed them big time. After working through the fantasy part, he really saw those drop off, because they weren't real.

Your choice to compare yourself (you're the real deal) with a fantasy is your own...was mine...ate at me, too...and I experienced the consequence of that choice through deep pain, fear and anger...until I really got all the way through that to compare is to judge...judging a person's perception is disrespectful...it changes, over time, as their own realizations change it...and I took a lot of pain I didn't need to (well, probably helped me in some way that I haven't figured out...but I'm not willing to dig for it)...and now I deal with having beaten myself up, experienced all those emotions, by my own choice.

Yuck.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You're getting so good at owning your own emotions...I guess I'm asking to own your beliefs, too. You believe others can make you adequate or inadequate, better or less, right or wrong...those beliefs can really give you a lot of painful emotions...how about changing those beliefs...pick ones you REALLY believe from your adult experience...we all get those beliefs, take them on, before we know we have a choice in what we believe...they are old, come from our earliest years...

He believes SF is his only path to intimacy...as you both recover through this, that may change...he has felt punished, rejected through your choice not to be intimate...his stuff, not yours. Understand he fears...he fears you removing the only conduit to being close to you...and recognize he WANTS to be close to you.

Good to know!

In your conversation, I didn't see any boundary enforcements. If he strived to get you to feel and think differently, that's him trying to define you. Just as you strove to get him to say you were superior to OW. This isn't very healthy, is it, for owning our own stuff?

You can take care of your own thoughts, feelings beliefs...and I know you know you can. It's a process. Listen and repeat, "I hear you want me to feel and think differently. Thank you. That's good to know."

And it IS!

If you choose to believe that. Honesty is what you both got a lot of ... acknowledging rather than fixing is where it sounds like you stumped yourselves...

Please hold yourself in reality and add in your head to his statements of his truth "right now." We change...we change all the time...can't make each other...we just do. You know that. His perception of the physical/emotional comparison may change...up to you in your own head to decide that what he perceives is for right now, and for you to choose to NOT compare yourself...period.

Judgment is like battery acid...handle with care. Best not to throw it around, huh? We always get some on ourselves that eats away at our soul.

Comparison is judgment...even the benign ones..."Most people would feel like I do" is a false comfort...what matters to self is what YOU feel...and comparing puts down self...you may have this habit deep within you because self is asking you to change your belief that safety in numbers doesn't mean belonging is safe. May be asking you to embrace and fully believe we are ALL (humans) created equal, separate, complete and whole...by God, marvelously designed...and there to believe we are inferior or superior come from NOT believing that fully.

Would you consider you chose to have SF with your WBF because knowing this was his path to intimacy, his act, after having a safe discussion of what would have been full of fear and painful feelings, he FELT closer to you? You can ask...it isn't an unreasonable reaction to what felt like conflict (beforehand) and turned out to be connection (afterward).

Big congrats on dismissing what you don't want...your brain isn't trying to harm you...you've dwelled in the desire for those details and in their revelation...brain thinks you want to be handed those because you kept asking brain to hand you those...dismissing them tells brain, "Uhm, no...I don't want that." You've begun retraining your brain.

Awesome.

Brave and courageous, HNT...know this about yourself. Look for each choice you make and reward yourself...thank yourself...you're worth it.

LA

Okay...

MB does not work when one of the partners is an active substance abuser.

The litmus test as to whether the substance abuse is a critical issue is.....

Asking your spouse to stop using the substance....and they refuse.

Your BF has refused.

Your BF simply cannot learn to lower his defenses, become intimate, take your feelings into account, POJA, behave lovingly towards you as long as he is abusing alcohol or any other substance.

I am posting this to you because I don`t want you to waste any more of your time by tackling the issues in the wrong order.

My H was a drug user at the time of his A`s (before and after this As too). When I first came to MB although the drug use was an issue for me I stopped short of labeling H and addict. I was in denial. I wasted an entire year trying to "fix" the M because I was trying to apply MB BEFORE attacking the substance abuse. I was frustrated, disheartend and I could not understand why my "plan" wasn`t working.

A few of the posters pointed out that my H`s drug problem needed to be adressed BEFORE we could work on recovery but it took me a full year of wasted effort until I finally did something about it.

Once it the drug use became my focal point and I told my H that the continued drug use was a deal breaker....H stopped using drugs. Then we were able to apply MB.

H was no longer able to numb his feelings with the drugs...good bad and anything in between therefore he could finally see how his actions affected me and the boys.

When your BF drinks he is numb and not only when he`s drunk, ALL the time. With my own H I found he was "nicer" eaiser to deal with when he was stoned. When he wasn`t stoned is when he was at his nastiest, his most unfeeling and uncaring. When H was stoned he was numb to feeling bad....when he wasn`t stoned he was numb to feeling good.

Does this sound familiar?

You can repair this but you must take the right steps in the right order. The alcohol abuse must be dealt with FIRST. And life with an active substance abuser changes the partner too. You must work to do on yourself. You will need to widen your horizons, get back out into the world, into the job force, a new wider circle of friends, preferably people who can empathise with your situation and who can support you emotionally.

This is precisely what I did. I stopped allowing H, HIS actions, HIS feelings define my life.

This seems insurmountable to you right now. I remember clearly feeling in WAYYYYYYY over my head.

But here H and I are 6 years later and we are doing great.

Whether H chose to address his substance abuse or not, whether he had decided to plug back into the M was beyond my control. I laid out my martial boundaries (no more substance abuse, work on the M) and H decided to respect the boundaries.


But had he chosen otherwise I would have survived. The work I did on myself, the changes I made in my life that enabled me to be more independant and self sufficient was a CLEAR indicator to H that things had to change or we would be divorced. I didn`t NEED H. I could do just fine on my own. That got his attention.

Please take a look at what SH has to say about substance abuse on this site. Do a search. Then please check out some outside sources for more information on substance abuse. You might want to give al-anon a call too. The more information you have the better.

You have ALL the power....

SB,

Thank you for responding to both this and my other post. It is nice to know that I am not the only one whose experienced this. I appreciate your viewpoint. I would like to respond to a few things.




I know that everyone is different and unique, so what goes for one may not go for another. But for the most part, men and women are very different when it comes to sex. Women are emotionally stimulated creatures. Sex does take place in a woman’s mind, combined with emotion. That is why most women would prefer romance novels or erotic literature instead of pornographic images. Men, on the other hand, are visually stimulated creatures, hence pornographic material, etc. So for men, physical attractiveness in their sexual partner plays an important part.

His A was both physical and emotional. Just not at the same time if that makes sense. Yes, there was a lot of emotion thrown into the physical part like him feeling admiration, masculinity, acceptance, etc… The same emotions that drew him to the OW in the first place. For him, the physical part was a validation of his manliness. An ego booster, exaggerated by the fact that OW was physically attractive and sexually enhanced. For him to be able to please a woman with these characteristics does more for his self-esteem than if he were able to please a woman with less attractive qualities.

Despite all of this, he has said that he felt like he "had sex with a hooker". He says this because he uses SF to express intimacy. During SF is the time he feels most comfortable expressing emotion and affection. A time when he feels closest to his partner. OW wouldn't allow any of this. Not only during SF, but anytime. There was no hugging, no kissing and only a very small amount of foreplay (just enough to get WBF where he needed to be to perform the act). He was disappointed because she wouldn't allow him to express his emotions through sex. This was his only complaint about the whole SF experience.

So the sex felt empty. That doesn't mean he enjoyed it any less. Based on the physical aspect alone, he enjoyed it so much that he wanted to do it again, alot (his words). And he did. Not clear as to why the PA didn't continue after D-day. The EA did although I didn't realize it until several months later.

So, in their A, they kept sex and emotions very seperate. I know that isn't the way WBF wanted it and that hurts even more. I don't believe that made any difference in wanting to continue the A. In fact, WBF told me that was the case. Despite the fact that the A lacked intimacy and affection, the sex itself that was THAT enjoyable that he would've continued it anyway.

The thing that really gets me is that is wasn't until very recently that SF between us was much more than just sex either. Now, there is more hugging and kissing and foreplay, but I think that is because that is what I want and he wants to please me. Not necessarily because that is what he wants.

To be honest, there is alot that I am unclear about from his perspective. We have discussed alot of this, but he gets frustrated that I ask for so much clarification.

Again, Thank You for your response!

LA,

As usual, your responses are very much appreciated. When I saw that you had responded, I was afraid of what you might tell me on such a subject. To be honest, I DJ'd you that you probably wouldn't respond to this post at all. I'm sorry!

On to responding.



Yes, LA, I completely agree. I know that he didn't cause or make my insecurities. They already existed prior to this. I used this to validate my feelings of insecurity and inadequacy. Like putting a magnifying glass over it. It doesn't matter what he said (or would've said) after the fact, I chose (would've chose) not to believe him anyway. These feelings and fears are engrained into my head.




I don't believe, at least not consciously, this as THE truth. It is HIS truth that bothers me. I want HIS truth to be that I am better. That I am the best. I was hoping that HIS truth was going to be that the sex was lousy, that her nudity was repulsive. In a perfect world..lol. These were my hopes. My expectations were that it would've been mediocre at best. Based on previous, very vague conversations. This all through his perception, his truth. Unfortunately, his truth is very different than either of those.



I'm having a hard time with this one. His very detailed account of the event(s) was mostly based on just purely physical aspects. The sex really happened so fantasy became reality, didn't it? Regardless of the reasons why it can appear better, his truth is that it appears better. It is better to him, in his mind. If it wasn't, I might not be choosing to feel so insecure. I can't seem to choose to feel otherwise.





My fear is that he compares us. I know that perceptions can change over time and I hope that his will. I don't know what will cause that change and I know that I can't change it but I can't help but want to try. There is nothing to say that his perception WILL definitely change and that is also my fear. My fear is that his truth for the rest of his life will be that OW is superior to me physically and sexually. That his perception won't change.



Thank you for acknowledging about the emotions. I'm still not too good about the beliefs. I know that this is my stuff. I'm not even sure how to recognize beliefs, how to recognize when they need changing, how to change them . How do I think differently? How do I teach myself to do this?

I still have a hard time getting this "owning your own stuff" stuff. Beliefs, boundaries. I can't believe after all this time I am still not getting it. Any of it. I search and read and still don't get it.




I could ask, but I do believe that is probably the case. I know that I felt closer to him and that is why I did it.


From a previous post:



I don't meant to pry into your personal life uninvited, but I have a question about this if you don't mind. Does this mean that the two of you have not fallen back in love as of yet? I ask this because it seems to me that if you have, the decision of whether or not to stay together would've already been made. Is there any reason why if you are "in love" that you would decide not to stay together? Please help me with this.

I have come to a realization that I think I keep sabotaging the relationship to avoid falling back in love with WBF. Every time I start to have those "in love" feeling for him, I panic and invite something that causes pain, such as my current situation. I look for reasons to keep myself from having those feelings for him because I am afraid to be in that place alone. He is nowhere near that place. Probably because I keep sabotaging it. He still only carries caring love for me as opposed to romantic love even. Our goal is to fall back in love. I just can't allow myself to get there way before he does. I'm afraid of being hurt. I'm afraid my reaction to those feelings if I did allow myself to get there would be suffocating and detrimental to obtaining our goal.

I know there is no crystal ball, no magic wand. I haven't arrived at a place where I can be rid of all expectations. So, I strive for realistic expectations for now. When thinking about your comment, I think "Is it really gonna take longer than 2 years for him to fall back in love with me?" I know that no one, not even WBF has the answer to this question. I also know that everyone's situation is unique. Now that I realize what I have been doing about sabotaging things to avoid falling in love with him, I can't allow myself to do that anymore or we will never get where we would like in our relationship. It is terrifying to allow myself to go to that scary place alone, not knowing in even an estimated time frame if and when he will be joining me.

You know me, I can (and sometimes will) go on and on forever. Thanks again!

Daisy37,

Thank you for responding!



I'm sorry Daisy! I don't recall saying that he refused. I think what I said was that he hadn't responded.

The way that WBF operates is that if I ask something of him, he usually doesn't respond or act on it right away. The reason, I believe, for this is because he doesn't want it to appear that he's only doing something because I asked. He likes to wait and look like he's doing it on his own. He thinks it means more that way. That is fine with me as long as it is ignored completely.

I am unsure if I would consider him an addict. I don't have a problem with him drinking. What concerns me is excessive drinking. I was concerned that he would not be able to drink at all without drinking excessively. So, I asked him to stop completely. I don't even necessarily want him to stop drinking for good. Just for a while until our relationship is in a better place and I am better able to deal with my own stuff. So that his drinking doesn't affect me emotionally. Also, seeing as the only time he was able to open up to me is when he had been drinking excessively, I wanted him to try to find another outlet for that instead of just waiting for intoxication.

The only friend/family he has is his brother and sadly his brother is an alcoholic. They have spent almost every Saturday for the last 7 years together and it does include alot of drinking. My concern about asking him to quit drinking was that would mean giving up that time with his brother which is not what I was trying to do since that is the only time he has away from me (and work now). I didn't bring it up again. I figured I would wait and see what would happen.

Friday came around and he told me that his brother wanted him to come over on Saturday (which I expected). I just said ok. He then said, "I won't drink though because I know that you don't want me to". I don't remember what my response was but it was pretty much just acknowledgment. I think that he was hoping that I would give him approval to drink. I didn't.

Saturday, he asked if it would be okay if he just had a couple (beers). I knew to him that a couple meant 6 or less and I knew that wouldn't be enough to intoxicate him so I agreed. My concern was that he wouldn't be able to limit himself and since I was unsure if he actually had a problem, I figure I would give him the opportunity to prove himself.

I don't know for sure how many he drank. I'm assuming 6 or less. He was not intoxicated and that was all that really mattered to me. Unfortunately, we had a little spat about another issue. (Trust, huhum.) But that 's beside the point.

My point, Daisy, is that I don't know whether or not he actually has a problem. I believe that if I had not agreed to the "couple of beers" he wouldn't have drank them. He feels like I am punishing him alot lately and that is not my intention. I didn't want him to feel that way in this situation. That is why I agreed to negotiation. He was happy and so was I. (about the drinking anyway).

I appreciate your concern and I value your imput. I will take it into consideration. Thank You!

Bumpity Bump Bump

Hang,

Trust is always a hugh problem. Followed by the punishment problem.

Only you can say what your intentions are.

Now my FWW used alcohol as an excuse for her A. She stopped then started again but is now almost 9 months sober. Would it be a punishment for me to have the condition that she doesn't drink or is that a consequence of her actions.

I also do not feel comfortable with other things she may do or not do. For instance she spent a lot of money during her A. We were broke and someone needed to make sacrafices for that spending. She looked at it like I was punishing her I was asking her to accept the consequences for her actions. I was asking her to make concessions in current spending and future spending.

So if there are things that happened that led up to the A then what do you do. You ask him to stop. His willingness or unwillingess to do so will determing how successfull your recovery will be.

Just my opinion.

As far as the drinking again ask him to stop for a determined amount of time. If he cannot stop there may be a problem.

HNT,

Can you find your payoff for DJs? What benefit would you derive in believing I wouldn't post back at all?

You pinpointed your choice to manipulate your feelings for your WBF, to not fall back in love...the payoff sounded like not falling back in pain...would that be close?

Finding my false payoffs so I could experience real ones changed my life. Big picture here...you will continue to do what you give yourself permission for...to perceive in your usual way, or a new one...to view yourself and others in your usual way or a new one...

We don't do anything without a payoff...Humans aren't designed that way.

"I used this to validate my feelings of insecurity and inadequacy. Like putting a magnifying glass over it. It doesn't matter what he said (or would've said) after the fact, I chose (would've chose) not to believe him anyway. These feelings and fears are engrained into my head."

Tell your payoff in validating your insecurity and feelings of inadequacy.

Then tell me if you choose to believe you can un-ingrain...retrain your brain?

"It is HIS truth that bothers me."

Why do you choose to disrespect what is solely his? To benefit you? Would you please consider that you are in the deep habit of disrespecting yourself, finding yourself unworthy, due to constant comparison...and this desire for him to change so you feel better is toxic to you? When you choose to believe you are equal to all others...not better or worse...just you, uniquely, marvelously yourself...then you will easily choose to respect his stuff, what he thinks right now, and it will not take away from nor add to who you really are?

Why would God make it so we fixed ourselves from the outside, where we have no control? Why would he give us that mode for being fulfilled and no ability to do it?

Could it be that because we're created by him, he is in us, and only we can fill ourselves? Through respectful choice, he gave us the ability to believe anything at all...so choosing to believe your WBF makes you happy, better, worse than others would be like living without self, wouldn't it?

Subject to whim, fantasy, delusion...might give us feelings of being lost, confused and annihilated.

I didn't see you doing any self care in considering his truth...which would be adding "right now" to every sentence. His truth right now. His truth used to be different.

Do you choose to believe sex is purely physical? That you can separate it from being the emotional need it is? If you distill it like this, there is no reasonableness I can find. When my WH had sex with another woman, his ability to have it came from a fantasy in his head...this woman represented a clean slate, which stimulates emotions and physical response...charges our chemicals...bears total acceptance...as if she's giving herself, total approval, to him, because he is worthy without earning...similar to what you may have experienced when you first got together with BF in the first place...and he, you.

Does that make her better? Sex better? No, just feels like it. Gives all the emotions of being connected without being known at all...which is why we pair up and choose to believe it will always be this way...because we believed it was finding the right person, total acceptance, and we would re-experience it over and over again for a lifetime.

Do we?

Why not?

Harley is giving you the beliefs you can choose for yourself to truly re-experience deep acceptance and REAL connection...the more you dwell where you have no choice, no control, impedes this process, don't you think?

Reality was in the action...he had sex with another woman. All the other stuff which is hurting you comes from the interpretation you choose to believe resulting from that action. I'm saying he experienced fantasy, not reality...and to live his fantasy and current truth over where it belongs...in him, not choosing to bring it into you. You cannot conceive how deeply a wayward mind can believe fantasy as reality. You may never get there...and I hope sincerely you do not experience it...losing one's mind...is awful. Accept you cannot know and choose to believe it's fantasy...please don't fight with yourself making it reality. Know the difference.

Do you believe love is earned? Ask yourself belief questions to discover what you believe. Do you believe some humans are good and some are bad? Do you believe we are filled up with love from the outside? Do you believe a clean house comes from confident or mature hands?

Make your own belief questions list...no rush...use your emotions to trace them back...he believes sex was better with someone else...I hurt from that...that hurt comes from the belief I had that I was better, best...and now I believe I am not. Ouch. Why did I choose to believe I was better? Because I believe what I'm told by others. Do I believe I am better at sex? Worked hard to be good at it? Earned the better or best title? Is this a valid, adult belief?

Asking yourself is what I'm doing here...that question about you choosing SF...was to you, not him. You matter. Knowing why you choose what you choose is critically important to owning your life, knowing your power and limits. Why did you choose SF...to be close to him? Or because you acted from your feelings of being closer to him?

Can you define what SF means to you, what it represents emotionally? Break it down into parts?

"My fear is that he compares us."

Consider you fear others' comparisons because YOU compare. You can't control others doing it...you can certainly control you doing it.

"I know that perceptions can change over time and I hope that his will."

His perceptions do not matter--yours do. Own your own perceptions, HNT. They are yours. How you experience life. Stop using all your focus, efforts and desires to change others. It's abusive. This is how you make him responsible for what he cannot be...your fear. It's yours. It isn't bad...or good. It is. Your belief that you can make him make you safe from your own fear is feeding your feeling lost...you are! You're going through other people to manage your own stuff...really tough to live in clarity when the process you've chosen is so confusing! I remember this well. I do.

"I don't know what will cause that change and I know that I can't change it but I can't help but want to try."

Get real, HNT. You can't help but want to try? YES YOU CAN. Change your language, "I choose to keep trying to change what I know I cannot." When you get this honest with yourself, acknowledge your choices, you'll see where your crazy-making perception is coming from. "I am giving myself permission to make my fear less, feel more secure, by making another human being not make me fear."

"There is nothing to say that his perception WILL definitely change and that is also my fear."

This is why your obsessive focus on him will continue your spiral of powerlessness...and it isn't real. Dwell on you, in your thoughts, beliefs and feelings...home terrority...what you control. Each time you go to a thought of him, what he may or may not be thinking, feeling, believing or perceiving...you betray yourself greatly. You are essentially telling your self you don't matter. You are not to be treasured or important. Hence, you feel constantly insecure...and your choice of where your thoughts dwell is DOING that to you. You are doing it to you. You are that powerful.

"My fear is that his truth for the rest of his life will be that OW is superior to me physically and sexually. That his perception won't change."

Every BS has experienced this, HNT. You're not alone. What a harmful, damaging and totally unreal thought to dwell in. His perception has changed a million times in his life...so has yours...you can either choose to believe human perception changes over time, or not. You can either live in the reality or the fantasy...and there's a payoff in stabbing yourself with this thought...find it. Helps you believe differently when you find out it was a false payoff. Like again, putting your life dependent on what you cannot control...from habit and routine.

Break those habits and routines.

About our own two-year deadline for deciding to stay married or not...yes, we've fallen back in love, again and again...we've learned not to decide our lives from our emotions. We are meeting each other's ENs...minding our love banks...living respectfully...does this mean we have to stay together, because it is good and fulfilling right now? Isn't that the mindset we had when we had our affairs? As long as it's good, do it? When it isn't, wreck it?

To re-dedicate ourselves to our marriage, with all we know now, from all the self-work we are doing and have done, would be very different than when we did it the first time...and in some ways, the same. Knowing all those parts is why the two years have flown by...all the learning, focusing on ourselves...acting respectfully inside and out...has given us the experience that we aren't making a perfect union...we will fall out of love and into it...we will experience heartache and pain...disconnect and reconnect...is this what we want?

What is trust...and once you give it and have it, does it stay? Or does it fluctuate inside yourself? Is it like a love bank, needs to be maintained, inside and out? What about openness and honesty...choice to reconnect after choosing to disconnect? Lots of other beliefs within us to talk about, examine, and choose.

What permissions have we revoked within ourselves...how much ownership have we learned and practiced? Worth every moment of the last two years...and going through the second anniversaries right now of a lot of little charted, memorized and traumatic dates...I forget their connection to the past...and then I remember. All of this to consider with respect, to come from love, but relying on being in love, is my desire to meet this deadline in December with clarity. Not choose from my emotions, but my new beliefs...

Hope that helps.

You panic and invite something in to cause you pain...an emotional cutter. You alone have a payoff in this...find it. Examine it. What does that pain tell you, each time? And where is the permission you give yourself to repeatedly do this come from?

Do you believe you both will re-experience feeling in love when your love banks are full? Then if you train yourself to block his deposits, will you decide to be instantly full when his is? If you've trained yourself to block his deposits, or to drain them out...a sieve...how will you do that?

And does it tie into you blocking your own deposits in your self-love bank? Bogarting yourself because you want it only from the outside? Have you considered the other way to love? By choice? Filling yourself up from the inside so that it overflows out to everyone?

Books to read...from my own journey...Healing The Shame That Binds Us by John Bradshaw...did you get that from the library yet? Also his Homecoming. Harley's Fall in Love, Stay in Love? Love Busters? Facing Love Addiction?

Why not try to shift your focus off WBF and his stuff, and stay in yours...reading and nurturing your own self as a way to experience life with clarity from truth?

LA

Hurtingless,

Thanks for the insight. The problem I am having now is that WBF seems to believe that no longer has to suffer the consequences of his actions. He sees everything as punishment for his A. Whether it actually has anything to do with that or not. And he keeps saying things like "There's a line drawn for how much more punishment I'm going to take." Which I process as a threats, ultimatums, and selfish demands.

The drinking isn't really an issue. It's the excessive drinking that concerns me. Not intended for punishment and has absolutely nothing to do with the A. I just simply can't stand when he's highly intoxicated.

As for asking him to stop drinking for a certain amount of time. I don't want to do that as I don't know when I will be comfortable with the excessive drinking again. Not that I ever should be nor should anyone be drinking excessively. If I ask him to stop for say 6 months for example, then when that time is up, he's going to say "I did what you asked." and then start drinking without limit like he has been.

He only drinks once a week. Every Saturday with his brother. He was drinking almost daily while we were separated and right after we got back together, but so was I. But now it is back to just once a week.

He knows where I stand. If he comes home drunk, then I will revisit the issue and take further steps. But until then, I'm going to allow him to prove himself. I told him that this is a deal-breaker for me, so he understands the importance.

Thanks again.

LA,

Thank You. Again, I am sorry for DJing you. I think I was afraid that you wouldn't respond and I always assume the worst. I am aware, now I should do something about it.

Confused about payoffs but I will give it a shot.

The payoff for:

trying not to fall back in love with WBF- not leaving myself vunerable for fear of pain.

validating your insecurity and feelings of inadequacy- to justify his A, to blame myself, to believe that I am unlovable, unloved

panic and inviting something in to cause pain- to believe I am undeserving of anything else, better for me to cause my own pain than for someone else to cause it




I am lost with some of this. I think you are saying that his stuff is his, his truths, his beliefs, his feelings, his thoughts are only his. They are not to affect me, I am to pay no attention, I am not to intrude upon or concern myself with what is solely his. Is this correct? As if to say that all of this is on his side of the fence and I am to stay on my side. I don't understand. How do to people share a life together and yet still stay on their sides of the fence? How does love get across? I need help with this, LA. I have no focus right now for this his and mine stuff. I am unable to understand this with clarity.




I acknowledge this, understand it, and agree with it. Now must find a way to do someting about it.


I guess that I do live without self. Everything in life is a competition to me. If I can't be everything, I'd rather be nothing. I feel like I'm never good enough. Undeserving. Everything is black and white for me. One extreme or another. In between doesn't exist. All or nothing. I have a defeatist attitude. Don't know why. Guess that's what I choose. Unsure why I choose that.



I don't know if his truth used to be different. Before, his truth didn't matter. Now it does. Before, I was good enough. His A said to me that I am no longer good enough. That's what I am choosing to believe.


I do believe that you can separate it. I can and have had sex completely devoid of emotion. I don't know if you or anyone else can choose that, but I can. Or I can choose to involve emotion, which is usually the case. Yes, I believe that WBF's emotions were involved and yes, I'm sure that made it feel better. Total acceptance or it felt like. But, I don't even want him to feel like it was better. I don't want that to be HIS truth. It hurts.




It did come from fantasy, the whole A was fantasy. The fantasy is over now and this is still HIS truth right now. Leave his fantasy, his truth with him. That's wonderful. I am to ignore his stuff. And ignore that his fantasy, his truth right now is that another woman is more appealing is some ways. I am not understanding how to do this. I don't know how to say to myself, "Oh well, he thinks she's this and he thinks that but that's his business." and go on without having a complex. I want to be his fantasy and reality. What is the reality aside from "he had sex with another woman"? If I choose not to believe the fantasy, what are my other options? What is the reality I can choose instead?




I think that everything I do, think and feel impedes this process. It is very frustrating.



Both. I felt close to him and wanted to be closer.


The act of sex is just purely physical to me. Just an orgasm. But that's just the sex in Sexual Fulfillment. Just sex is not fulfilling emotionally. I sometimes use the act of sex to express intimacy. Mostly because that when WBF feels most comfortable expressing intmacy but I could just as easily produce the same results without sex. What makes it fulfilling is the closeness, the connection. Without even having to say a word. Surrendering myself completely to that person. To show trust. To feel accepted and admired. To give and receive love. To please the other person. To make him feel good both physically and emotionally. To know that they care enough to want to please me.

I don't know if this answers your question or what parts to break it down into. Sorry.




I am aware of this. I look to others to validate me. If I treasure myself and not concern myself with others, than why not just be alone? What do I want them for? I live my life by what others think of me and feel for me, not what I think of myself or feel for myself. I fear not needing others to validate me. I fear that without needing validation, I will be alone. I will want to be alone. Why do I think this is a bad thing? I'll have to figure that out.


I guess that was difficult to see as I'm still living from emotions.

I have not read any of those books yet. I owe the library like $50 and haven't had the money for fines yet. Also, still have like 8-10 other books I've wanted to read. We should start getting money in soon so I will try to get them ASAP.


Sometimes I get to a place where I can relax and focus on me. That is usually short lived and I'm back to frantically focusing on WBF and his stuff. I think I'm afraid he will never love me.

I had a 3 day EA with one of my best friends since grade school while WBF and I were seperated.
WBF knows about this. The last few days I have been thinking about rekindling that A. I have been so frustrated and overwhelmed and I know what this OM can do for me. I also rationalized that I would be taking the pressure off WBF by getting what I need from this OM. How nice of me. I don't really want this OM but I know that he can do things that WBF can't right now. And he is readily available. Also, with these issues I am currently experiencing about sexuality and an inferiority complex, OM is not at all experienced so would have no comparison. Not that I want/wanted a PA.

Anyway, I had a hard time yesterday. I found myself constantly thinking about this OM. I kept really wanting to call him and I kept resisting. Until WBF came home from work and I was making dinner. I just called him. As a friend. Nothing out of the ordinary was discussed. Just small talk. OM has know idea of what was going on in my head and I know exactly how to get what I want out of him but I avoided leading him in that direction.

I had told WBF a few days ago what I had been thinking about. But said that I wouldn't do it. Really believed that. Until yesterday. I knew the way I couldn't stop thinking about it was really bad and started thinking that I was going to do it. Plus, I was finding things that WBF was saying and doing that I would normally love from him very annoying. Seemed liked a very WS thing. I don't want this OM, I want WBF. I'm just impatient in getting where I want with him and knew I could get a cheap substitution of that from the OM.

I have been highly emotional the last few days and WBF could tell something was bothering me.
I was planning to talk to him about it anyway, but since he asked we discussed it then. The conversation kind of went all over the place and we discussed alot of things. More discussion of the ongoing issues. By the end of the marathon I felt closer to WBF and didn't want to have an A anymore. We ended the night very intimately and went to sleep. I felt very close and connected to him.

This morning WBF used the phone and saw that when I had talked to the OM. He kind of confronted me. I wasn't trying to hide it from him. He knew I was on the phone and especially after our conversation I thought he had concluded that that was who I was talking to. I apologized for not telling him and explained that I no longer felt like I wanted to do that and I wanted him and only him. I asked if we were okay and he said yes. I asked if I should worry about him having another A as a result of my confession and he said no. We had lunch together and everything seemed okay. I hope it really is. I don't want to hurt him, I really love him. I was just being selfish.

I just wanted to confess to all of you and reluctantly accept my title as WGF. I also had a PA with the man I was seeing before WBF for about 6 months into our relationship and maintained occasional contact until after WBF's A.

So, My name's HangInThere and I'm a cheater. (Everyone together) "Hi Hangnthere!"

HNT,

"trying not to fall back in love with WBF- not leaving myself vunerable for fear of pain."

Okay...is this a real payoff or a false one? Can you, as a human being, ever NOT be vulnerable to others, any others, in your life? Would you choose to bogart, say, your DS's love deposits when he's a teenager?

And if this is your belief...that you can protect yourself from disconnecting and staying disconnected...then you believe pain comes in from the outside, correct?

"validating your insecurity and feelings of inadequacy- to justify his A, to blame myself, to believe that I am unlovable, unloved"

Is this a false payoff or a real one? This has been your comfort zone for a very long time...proving to yourself you're unlovable, unloved. This is known terrority, as familiar as the crevices on your own hands, the contour of your face...and the unknown is really scary. It's unknown. That's actually a neutral place...only humans choose through their perspective to see it as threatening...the unknown...are you brave enough to see it as neutral? Are you courageous enough to work on hard on changing your belief that you are unlovable...when you've been loved all along?

"panic and inviting something in to cause pain- to believe I am undeserving of anything else, better for me to cause my own pain than for someone else to cause it"

To make sure you remain believing you are undeserving of anything else...same as above...only you're willing to emotionally cut yourself to double insure you know that your self-image remains the same. That in ways you can't even identify, that your cycles, reactions and life remains the same. Known.

Wanna try on the idea that you created your own self-image and it's a false self...not real...never was or can be?

"They are not to affect me, I am to pay no attention, I am not to intrude upon or concern myself with what is solely his. Is this correct? As if to say that all of this is on his side of the fence and I am to stay on my side. I don't understand. How do to people share a life together and yet still stay on their sides of the fence? How does love get across? I need help with this, LA. I have no focus right now for this his and mine stuff. I am unable to understand this with clarity."

I hear you're making your goal clarity...congratulations on a great goal!! I'm fond of it...it was the one I chose.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not saying that his truth does not affect you...I am saying you are choosing to PERMIT his truth to affect you. Does that help? As long as you believe you need his perspective to be favorable of you (which is humanly impossible to maintain at all times), then you will try to CONTROL what is his and his alone...to make YOURSELF safe, secure, and feel favorable about yourself.

Why go around the block to get to your own backdoor?

It's yours.

Living externally makes no sense once you realize that's not how humans were designed. They do it...doesn't mean it's natural.

You've got a really good imagination...picutre yourself feeling safe, secure and loving yourself, thinking favorable of yourself...solid knowledge...built from adult beliefs. Lock into that place in your imagination, so you can taste, touch and see life from that perpective. Now picture how you would feel if WBF said, "I resent you wanting me to take out the trash." Is that you doing it to him or did you hear he is resenting of his own choice? How do you feel?

Do you hear him asking you to cure him of what is his...or do you hear him sharing what he has become aware of and is working on...sharing...not accusing...requiring you to change...control or cure...?

Sharing...you said it...we share our lives with each other...all our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, what we learn, what we don't...that's intimacy. True intimacy...what you learned was that if you don't feel responsible for his feelings, thoughts and beliefs, then you don't love.

And if he doesn't, you don't FEEL loved.

You could choose to believe truth...

Love is a choice YOU make...no one can make you choose to love them...not by their actions or words. We choose to love the essence of our partners...not their actions. We can appreciate, celebrate and admire their actions...or hate those actions for their destructions...as long as we honor and respect their inherent choice...be safe enough to know their intent, then we will not judge the person, only their actions. And we will act lovingly not to earn their love back...but to express our love, our choice...and we will know love from the inside out...I promise you. You will.

And you will FEEL deeply loved at all times...because you replaced the old, damaging belief we earn love through what we do, not who we really are...that false image trapping you into thinking you're defective...because you made a defective self-image...and you are NOT. You cannot BE defective...God never made no junk.

The way you stop DJing is to first choose your intent...which is to NOT DJ because that is not who you really are...to believe assumptions and mindreading IS NOT LOVE...it is deadly, toxic and twists your perception of reality...contributes to fantasy because you can't hear others truth nor speak your own when you DJ.

DJs are the way we falsely feel safe by knowing what we really do not know...a shield and a dagger, both. Doesn't really shield..it's an illusion. Being comfortable in knowing what we don't really know...is freedom.

"I guess that I do live without self. Everything in life is a competition to me. If I can't be everything, I'd rather be nothing. I feel like I'm never good enough. Undeserving. Everything is black and white for me. One extreme or another. In between doesn't exist. All or nothing. I have a defeatist attitude. Don't know why. Guess that's what I choose. Unsure why I choose that."

Now, tell me how real is it for a human being to live without themselves? Is that a doable reality, or a self-delusional one? We can ACT as if we live without self...does not mean it is possible. Self is constantly reacting to being lived without...which creates inner conflict...because self is...remains...eternally. You are.

I had to practice this myself. I had to say several times a day, "I am." What a difference that made!! Clarity cannot be achieved unless you clear out a lot of the internal noise...conflict...and accept reality. You are. You really are.

And this choice, saying this ten, fifteen times a day, trains your brain that what you've been telling it...that you don't exist unless someone says you do...isn't true. That you WANT to know and accept self...your authentic self...and your brain will begin handing you truth, your real truth, because when you feel the fantasy that you don't exist coming on, and say, "I don't want that" brain will stop handing you fantasy.

The extremist in you...the black/white, all or nothing, etc. is common. It comes from believe you can exist without existing...this thwarts all efforts at accepting and respecting others and yourself. Like a snake eating itself, it's an endless cycle; you aren't crazy to be caught in this loop. You are crazy to continue to do so when you KNOW better and do not practice believing and being as you really are. That's my opinion, now that I stopped doing just that. Before, it was normal, not crazy.

You don't have to know why you chose this manner of living to stop choosing it. As you practice choosing reality over fantasy, the answers will come...you will know where it comes from...not knowing doesn't impede not living that way any more. Your choice.

Please know you ARE choosing your life for real...know that power...you can choose to continue as you were or choose differently. Incremental change...even now, can you see how differently you're choosing since the beginning of your thread? Going inward is unthinkable at first...and you've made your way inside...pondering, not extreme actions...you have scalped yourself as a shortcut...good job. The more you go inward, the easier it becomes...bits at a time...until you can live comfortably in every part of yourself...and love it.

"I don't know if his truth used to be different. Before, his truth didn't matter. Now it does. Before, I was good enough. His A said to me that I am no longer good enough. That's what I am choosing to believe."

"Right now" does not depend on his truth...he is human. We only have right now...the rest is illusion. What you are thinking, feeling experience is only in the right now. There is NO other time. Knowing truth from the fiction of your life is difficult...your brain does not know real from fantasy...stores and accesses it for you the same. That's why you HAVE to choose to believe you are enough, you are equal to all others on the planet...because honestly, God didn't make some less than others any more than you would make your son less than your future daughter, would you? All equal...loved to our molecules before we were conceived...given all the power of choice, the limit of control, and heard...Wow. Think how harmful it would be to experience your 8-year-old (future) son hitting himself in the head with a hammer saying "I do not exist." OUCH!!!

He didn't deserve that. Neither do you. Get this, HNT. Your life and his depend on it.

There's a difference between your emotions being valid...you FEEL hurt...that's valid and it is yours. The information that pain contains may be coming from an invalid belief. If you believe you are nothing, useless...then you will experience the emotion of pain and anger...and they are real. They are informing you that you are in conflict with reality. Self HURTS. You hurt. Information. Good to know. If you change your belief to choosing to KNOW you exist, you are separate and equal, as capable and significant as all others...what will you experience then, HNT? Pain from that belief, or joy? Confidence? You have been proving to yourself you are nothing and worthless for decades...this isn't a magic pill...and yet, it is just as easy. You have to first choose to take that pill...swallow it to your soul, and then live from it...act in accordance with that belief...treating yourself as an equal and others...and that will be how you experience life...joyfully.

I am asking you to know what you feel and find out what the information is telling you and find the belief it is coming from. Are you WILLING to do that?

You did it to find your false payoffs...you have thousands more inside you. Takes work, patience, understanding and the dedication to be in the middle of yourself, not the extremes...to leave judgment outside yourself...and not bring it in with you. Searching to know, not to judge.

"But, I don't even want him to feel like it was better. I don't want that to be HIS truth. It hurts."

Where's the right now acknowledgment? Do these statements remain true if I add them?

"But, I don't even want him to feel right now like it was better. I don't want that to be HIS truth right now."

What if it is the only way for him to get to where he knows reality from fantasy? Would it be worth your hurt right now? And why is it worth you to choose to BELIEVE his truth, when it hurts...you signalling you that you are in conflict with what you believe?

I respect you do not want to live an adult life...because you are now aware as an adult, you choose your beliefs, what you live by, which determines what you will experience in your life. You will remain dependent on your WBF and others as mothers...controlling, demanding, tearing down and ripping up others...as you emotionally cut yourself...with full awareness you are a dangerous person to have a relationship with...by your OWN CHOICE.

Wow.

I know you have that choice...I have no control, or influence. My heart hurts right now...like seeing a the path I walked as my future...whoa. Well...I don't believe you will do that...that you will keep choosing this path for your life. I really don't. I believe in you. You are my equal...there is nothing I have that you don't at all...you can change your desire as I did...in your own way, your own time...it takes what it takes, HNT. For each of us, that's different. Took so much for me...I guess I'm asking you to not go through all the years I did...and that may be what it takes for you.

A reality you can choose...he is with you. He chose you, not her. Fantasies are NOT fulfilling at all...they are distractions from pain. He is choosing you, the whole package...that's reality one.

Reality two...he desires to connect to YOU, and he prefers to connect to you than OW.

Find more...tell them to me...what isn't enough for you, do not discount...I see you living as if reality will never be enough...and that's a wayward state of mind. That's why you are choosing to attack your relationship with your own affair...and every single contact with OM continues that affair...no restarting about it. That's Reality #3.

And you acknowledge that WBF's affair was fantasy...and when you took his fantasy into yourself and made it YOUR TRUTH, then you hurt. You hurt deeply. You trained your brain that you wanted to hurt and you continue to do so.

Until you stop.

"I am aware of this. I look to others to validate me. If I treasure myself and not concern myself with others, than why not just be alone?"

Can you see your extreme perspective in this quote? Can you instead, give me the 90 degrees, the reality, instead?

If others do not validate you exist, do you? Yes. If you do not treasure yourself, you CANNOT treasure others. This truth is hard to learn...look at God's design again...he made you. Did he create you to be alone? Did he give you a heart to love and a choice of whom you love? Did he give it so you could recreate yourself, graffiti his work as not good enough, to earn other humans' love and approval? When you already had his?

Or did he create you to experience his own creation fully, know who you really are and share it with everyone else...and accept and share in what they share with you...who they really are? Is that the design you believe? Or would he make you earn your existence, the love of others through your actions and words...and negate his creation to do it? Then you would be a slave to others and have no access to him...because when you through out the creation, you throw out the creator.

Without others validating you...you will validate yourself. Without others admiring you, you will admire yourself. And you know what? I couldn't get there from that place. I had to begin knowing The Truth before I could validate, admire and ACCEPT my true self. By doing that, I stopped putting that responsibility on others...doubling them to fill half of me...and life bloomed. Doubling life, not myself, just through this one choice.

Long road, HNT. I can't explain it any better right now.

I cannot control, cure or cause you to bloom. Only you can. That's reality. No one else can either. Not with more words, more loyalty or concern...they can't. Not in God's design.

I believe your deepest fear is that you will never love YOURSELF. And it is your choice...that fear is unreasonable. Damaging choice you're making. Once you know you are loved and lovable, you will begin to feel others' love...you'll know it...as you choose to believe you make love a choice, a verb, how you choose to act...then you will begin seeing the thousands of ways you are already loved...and have been. Until then, you won't.

LA

LA,

Thank You. I want you to know that I really appreciate everything you do for me. You have helped me a great deal even when I do not fully comprehend what you mean. I also want you to know that I do not share the same spiritual beliefs as you. That is perfectly okay. It doesn't mean that anything you share with me is any less. I read it, take it in and accept it for what it is. I'm just not sure if it helps me as much as it would if we did share the same beliefs. I just wanted to share. My choice, not your fault.

Also, I have a daughter, not a son. Minor detail, I get what you are saying regardless.

I have mentioned before that I can sometimes get to a place where I am relaxed and calm and can focus on myself, although it is normally short lived. I am in that place right now and when I am here, alot of what I say, think, feel and believe when I am not here seems absurd to me. But since I am unsure if I can stay in this state, I'm going to play devil's advocate incase I fall of the wagon and get back to crazy land. Just information.

Could you describe to me what the difference in real payoffs and false payoffs are? I know there is one. Can you tell me what a real payoff might look like?



No, I could not possibly escape vulnerability throughout my entire life. I could, however, try to avoid it at all costs as much as possible. I would not choose to bogart ANYONE's love deposits. That is not what I do. I actually block out love deposits, choosing to believe I am unworthy, and then complain because they are not reaching me. It would be like someone trying to give me a gift and me saying, "Thank you, but I couldn't possibly accept that". Refusing the gift and then being resentful that the person wasn't more adamant about it. Silly, huh?


I am unsure about this. I believe that pain comes from both, I think. I cause myself pain, so that comes from the inide. I'll use the pain from WBF's A as an example. His A was painful because he was giving to someone else what I wanted him to give to me. Also, because he took what I was giving him for granted and allowed himself to receive from someone else what he should've been receiving from me. I felt pain for giving myself to someone who wouldn't cherish me. I felt pain for being vulnerable to that pain. I felt pain for not giving all of me. I could go on and on. Does all of this pain come from the inside or the outside? Can pain not come from the outside? I'm getting confused. Could you shed some more light on this?



I am in agreement that this is all very true.



I would like to. I will have to work on that. Unclear on that I have been loved all along. Not disputing that, just unclear of the meaning.



I can go with that I created my own self-image by choosing to take on others' truths as my own. But then this became my truth. What makes it false? What is the reality?



It should help. But I guess I am still having a huge problem with enmeshment. Let's say if his truth was that he doesn't love me. And I choose not to allow his truth to affect me. What does it look like? Do I just say to myself, "Oh well, he doesn't love me. That's his problem." and go on about my life ambivalent to whether or not he loves me? I know it is his choice. I cannot make him love me. How can I choose not to let it affect me? To hurt me?



I considered this for awhile. I think I am just unable to imagine that place clearly right now. I would hear that he is resenting me of his own choice but am unable to imagine any feelings about it. It seems to me that this should be so simple and yet I am so far gone that it is nearly impossible to reach that perspective. That frightens me. I frighten myself.


Okay, now that I added this part with the previous one. I can see what I did. I took that statement to mean that he expected me to do something about it. And that was my first reaction. "What am I supposed to do about it?" I try to fix people and take responsibilty for what is theirs AND I expect them to fix and take responsibilty for what is mine. I get it.



I am not sure what you mean here by be safe enough to know their intent. What if you cannot know their intent?


What do you mean? I will feel deeply loved by myself? Is that what you mean?


I believe we are all equals. I also believe that some people are better at some things and others are better at others. Or else every little boy (or girl) that wanted to grow up and be a professional baseball player, would be, wouldn't they? If everyone were equal in every way, everyone would be exactly what they want to be and do exactly what they want to do. It's not always possible. My BF is better at cooking than me. I could cook, but he is better so he usually does. I do not believe that OW is better than me as a whole. She is not a better person, nor am I. She is better at some things and I am better at others. I see that. Unfortunately, I believe that the things she is better at are more important to me (and I DJ that they are also more important to WBF, because I cannot possibly know his truth) than the things that I am better than her at. Does this make sense? Not necessarily the right or wrong way to feel. Just the way I feel.



I am still having a hard time with this. I am very connected with my feelings. How to find what it means and where it is coming from, difficult to understand. Willing if I can know just how to do it.


Yes, to me they do remain true. Even if you add "right now". Even if you add "right then". Especially if you add "10 years from now".



What if what is the only way for him to get where he knows fantasy from reality? His truth right now being that OW is better sexually and physically? How would this help him to know the difference? I am confused. Can you please clarify?



I don't know that it's worth it. I care what he thinks of me. Is that wrong? Is that something harmful to me? Do you not care what your H thinks of you? Unclear about what the last part means.


I am baffled by all of this. I feel as though you are giving up on me. I hope not, but that is your choice.
If that is what you choose, I accept that and respect it. Is this what you are saying? Just want to be clear.


Yes, he is with me. That's great and I am grateful to have him (although it doesn't always seem that way). He did chose me, but not because being with me is more fulfilling. Because I didn't cause as much damage to his life as her. She destroyed his livelihood, his career. What is most important to him. (He is equally responsible, but this is how he sees it.)

During the A, he told me he wanted her because I had hurt him and she didn't. Then, to him, she hurt him more, so I win. I have a hard time finding comfort in this.


Yes, right now he prefers to connect with me than OW. He did prefer to connect with OW, she would not allow it. But I will be happy that RIGHT NOW, he wants to cnnect with me. The past is the past and I will try to leave it there. I will try to tell myself that the past is not important. That the future and, more importantly, the present are.



More realities? Not sure.


I acknowledge that very often I have very unreal expectations. Of course, I don't always see it that way. Thank you for the insight. Since our marathon the other day, WBF has been more than enough for me. I was not allowing myself to see it and accept it before. I am very grateful and happy for him and everything he his and does. That is why I am choosing, right now, not to attack my relationship with my own affair.


I suspect the response to this might be "WS fog talk" but I'm choosing to respond anyway. I have known this guy ( and I really don't like to refer to him as OM because I really don't see him that way at all) for 14 years and we have always been just good friends. He has always had feelings for me and has shared those feelings from the beginning, but respects me and never goes beyond that. During the 3 day affair (okay, I said it) I invited him to meet ENs that I would normally block out or would not even be an issue. This 3 day affair (i said it again) helped WBF to make a decision about whether or not to be with me. Beside the point. I told OM that I wanted to focus on WBF (He already knew everything I felt about WBF and everything else) and we agreed that it was a good idea not to continue with what we had been doing and even during the 3 days had made it clear that he didn't want it to go further, we both did. I did feel infatuation during that time. I was infatuated with a fantasy, not the real OM, I knew this at the time. After that conversation, the fantasy went away and so did the infatuation. Everytime I have talked to this guy since has been just like nothing had happened. Never mentioned again. Just like it was before that.

I know that I should have NC with this guy. I can't speak for him but I value him as a friend, nothing more. I don't have any other feelings and right now don't want anything else to do with him. He did nothing wrong and I don't want to punish him for my intentions. He knew nothing about them. I'm not going to initate an official NC. WBF hasn't asked for that anyway. I am just not going to have contact with him unless or until WBF is comfortable (as well as myself, until I am positive I can trust myself) and under WBF's terms.


I think that I value others more than I should or something. My fear is that if I don't need them, I won't value them as much. That they won't mean very much to me at all. I like to value them. Does this make sense?

I know this, LA. But you can help me gain a different perspective. And you do. Thank you.

You know, I typed daughter instead of son...and then back over it...remembered when I'd guessed wrong the first time..rinsed and repeated my own process again...wanna change your sigline to DD2 to help a befuddled old lady out? An act of kindness?

LOL

On the beliefs...help me to understand your beliefs. Are humans equal? Do some have defects and others nearer perfection by birth? Chance? Do we have different capabilities, some smarter, some stupid; some evil, some good? What do you believe is our purpose here on earth?

I'm not trying to convert you...I suspect you have the same beliefs, but not from the same source belief...I dunno. I'd like to know because if you believe humans vary in defectiveness, then I really can't help you...that is a root belief from which all others stem.

For instance, treating others respectfully would go out the window if you were either better or less than them, wouldn't it? I could be wrong. Hard for me to imagine.

Real payoffs...mine are...each time I feel anger, speak of it without LBing...I feel validated, brave and funny enough, a lot less angry immediately. I like that. I have feared anger from others and my own my whole life. Because of this real payoff, I don't fear it anymore...I listen to it. Speak of it, not from it.

Each time I get a paycheck (weekly), I get a real payoff.

Each time I do the dishes and sing because I like a clean sink and the fun of singing...I get a payoff during and after.

Gosh, there are thousands...

Each fear I face, I fear less...fear of judgment (tied to rejection) was huge...first manicure, pedicure, massage, karaoke, first time snowmobiling, doing standup...all these have payoffs no matter how they turn out. Real payoffs.

Bravery is rewarding in itself.

I'll get to the rest of the post later...have to run.

LA

More on your post:

"No, I could not possibly escape vulnerability throughout my entire life. I could, however, try to avoid it at all costs as much as possible."

Let me define what vulnerability is to me...physically, we are made of skin...not steel...we bleed...the reality is we are physically vulnerable at all time to pain. Emotions are information from our beliefs...we believe someone is being kind to us, we feel seen, regarded and cared for. We believe someone is being mean to us, attacking us, we feel disrespected, unacceptable and degraded (or something close). We are vulnerable to our own emotions from our beliefs, how we choose to perceive...because we interpret actions. Often, we decide to be vulnerable to others' emotions...their pain, suffering, anger, fear...all the rest. We're human. We do this. More choice than wearing our skin, though.

We are vulnerable mentally to delusion...to misinterpreting information from others and the world because our brains do not know the difference between reality and fantasy. What is real and what isn't...it is an input device and we train it...we begin training it from birth, maybe, even, before. We are vulnerable to miscommunication, both in translating our own thoughts into words and hearing others' thoughts.

We are vulnerable spiritually from all the other three getting in there...because our spirit is the most intangible of all, a wisp of us instead of a body part, a strong emotion or a logical thought.

We can tell our brains we can protect ourselves...to not be vulnerable...is that a reality, given our design? Can you make yourself impregnable in all ways, or have you mostly experienced emotional detachment, forgetting you remain physically, mentally and spiritually vulnerable?

Intimacy is not being just vulnerable...it is the choice to voluntarily be completely vulnerable in all ways with another person.

I believe we choose the perspective of being able to NOT be vulnerable because if we really acknowledged how vulnerable we are, every minute, we believe fear would choke us. It doesn't. It leaps up and then settles down...every minute you believe you are vulnerable and act anyway, teaches fear that the belief it's coming from, that we will be killed if we do not defend isn't true. We choose to replace that belief with "All humans are vulnerable. And they live, anyway. I can feel great pain, and live, anyway."

"I would not choose to bogart ANYONE's love deposits."

I would hope you would. OM's deposits may feel real and they aren't. Boundaries around your relationships require you bogart rivals to meeting marital ENs.

"That is not what I do. I actually block out love deposits, choosing to believe I am unworthy, and then complain because they are not reaching me."

This is excellent to know you know your own defense mechanism...which was once a tiny muscle that clinched when you felt pain coming in from the outside and you worked it, nurtured and grew it into a huge muscle, which seems to work on its own. I'm here to tell you it doesn't really, unless you believe it does. Give it permission to.

I did that...and you said really well...I blocked and then demanded more...having no idea how much I blocked...in myself...and in my demand, I blocked my own, too. No wonder I felt a huge void, unfillable and needy!!

"It would be like someone trying to give me a gift and me saying, "Thank you, but I couldn't possibly accept that". Refusing the gift and then being resentful that the person wasn't more adamant about it. Silly, huh?"

Don't DJ yourself and me ('cuz I very much see me in you, hence all my posts)...Silly isn't ignorant. You were ignorant...did not know...had no knowledge of how humans work or what you did to yourself behind your own back. And yes, the gift analogy is perfect...you really want the present and deny it, to not appear needy of it...when in actuality, you ARE...so denying neediness doesn't go away. There's no respect in denying the gift...that's how I lived so disrespectfully for all of my life...the crux of it, HNT. You really said a lot right there.

"I am unsure about this. I believe that pain comes from both, I think. I cause myself pain, so that comes from the inide. I'll use the pain from WBF's A as an example. His A was painful because he was giving to someone else what I wanted him to give to me. Also, because he took what I was giving him for granted and allowed himself to receive from someone else what he should've been receiving from me. I felt pain for giving myself to someone who wouldn't cherish me. I felt pain for being vulnerable to that pain. I felt pain for not giving all of me. I could go on and on. Does all of this pain come from the inside or the outside? Can pain not come from the outside? I'm getting confused. Could you shed some more light on this?"

If you emotions are inside you, information about your beliefs...how does pain come in from the outside? When we aren't watching where we're walking and run into a doorjamb, we experience pain...did it come from the doorjamb? Our expectation to not walk into a doorjamb? Is the pain physical, in our skin and muscles, or at times, our bones?

How about going back to when we were children...not knowing we could choose what we believe...did you believe love was in the air, could be transmitted from one person feeling it into you? That anger was like a blaring red pipe, pouring disapproval, icky, burning red stuff from your mother's eyes into your heart? If our emotions can really be transmitted from one human to the other directly, make you feel what you wouldn't otherwise feel...then you can be controlled, can't you? When we were infants, we believed we were one with our caretakers...what they felt, we felt...this isn't unreasonable or nuts to believe somewhere within ourselves that we cause pain, frustration and anger...or that people cause us those things. As we grow and learn we are separate, equal, what we really control and what we don't, this concept will become clearer...and when you fully get it...the respect of this truth...then you will eventually come to understand that everything in you as a human adult, ripples around the world. Don't try to get from enmeshment to universality though. Just know it's only a step in the growth process...not the end.

Hope that helps by way of explaining.

Another way to see it...your WBF actions hurt you...not WBF. His actions were wrong; he lied and was a liar. He lost his own integrity, too...his choices crushed your expectations and desire to be cherished, didn't it? Your expectations and desires...yours. Doesn't mean you don't have those; fidelity is a reasonable desire. Is the desire to feel loved and cherished 24/7 reasonable? Or is the desire to KNOW you're loved and cherished 24/7 reasonable?

As to being loved all along...I believe everyone is on this earth, given they were created by God's love and loving intention. I also believe that humans are loved more fully by others than they dare to realize...too much fear...fear of being wrong about knowing they are...wanting to be right more than being loved...or more commonly, to not see how others express love because it isn't the same love language. All our choice.

I can see love in a stranger holding a store door open for me. I can hear love in a "Good morning" at work. Is it love? It is because I have chosen to hear and see it, hence, feel it...that is my truth, my choice. I can taste love when someone invites me to dinner...and I return it in sharing my admiration, appreciation and acceptance...whether they hear, see or know it in return.

I am acting my love for you right now, HNT, by posting. Giving you my attention, sharing my beliefs, showing my appreciation for who you really are, and admiring you for being here. And I believe your desire to know, grow, learn, break cycles and habits...and wanting to KNOW what I think and believe...is you loving me back. Doens't matter if you really are...because I choose to perceive it that way.

And if you read my posts, I slip in the perception. I falter in my perspective...I still can react instead of act...in my learning, growing and embracing this life, my life...because others, like you, are generous to include me...and that includes everyone on this board...because they include me in their posts by posting to an open forum, whether we post to each other or not.

That's why I say it's a privilege for me to be here, on your thread and others. It truly is for me. Not because I'm unworthy or unlovable...but because posters are generous with their hearts, minds, beliefs and spirits...and I see that gift every day. Why do you think MB is addicting? Feels like I'm getting expensive jewelry everyday...and I wear it in my mind, my heart and my life. I'm shining. And I pass it on.

"I can go with that I created my own self-image by choosing to take on others' truths as my own. But then this became my truth. What makes it false? What is the reality?"

If I told you that you made most of your false self when you were 15 years old and younger, would you believe that is who you really are? That you chose to create a human being with the hands and mind of a child? That the rest of you has been fine tuning and reinforcing those beliefs which create you as an adult? Not a major remodel...only touches here and there...tiny changes, alterations, with the massive beam beliefs remaining as they were?

Try this one on..."If someone is angry with me, I did something wrong."

"If someone else says they are right, the I am wrong."

What resonates, chimes or pulses in you is your notification you may have one of these beliefs holding up your self-image. I did. Still do...finding and replacing them is tough...wonderful...surprising...I don't recommend replacing though with the intent to earn love better...my intent is to live in reality. Find the beliefs which aren't real, just seemed logical when I was child.

So false comes in...is that what you really believe now, or not? If not, it's false. And you're living and feeling directly from it! Ack!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How about the beliefs you defined yourself with..."Mom thinks I'm a blabbermouth, can't shut up" becomes "I am a diarrhea mouth. It's what I am." Is that a reasonable adult belief? Does it define me? I have now learned the value in silence, pauses, considerate thought, and truth. Before, I was trying to suck attention out of everyone I met.

"But then this became my truth."

Without knowing "this" and what it is, how you controlled it, you chose it to be your truth. You can choose differently.

How about this one..."Dad says I'm needy and that annoys him." "I am needy and annoying. I am a burden to others."

Now I go to my belief...God doesn't design needy and annoying people...we are his children, beautiful and whole...nothing to need...not even HIM...he didn't design us to even need HIM...only by choice do we choose and revel in him...(sorry, that was something new for me)...

People can feel annoyed. The Owning All Your Villagers thread might show those who are annoyed by neediness fear it because they feel needy themselves. Hmmm.

My real self is neither needy or annoying...it can be starved for attention...from me. Starved for focus and care.

Hmmm.

"It should help. But I guess I am still having a huge problem with enmeshment. Let's say if his truth was that he doesn't love me. And I choose not to allow his truth to affect me. What does it look like? Do I just say to myself, "Oh well, he doesn't love me. That's his problem." and go on about my life ambivalent to whether or not he loves me? I know it is his choice. I cannot make him love me. How can I choose not to let it affect me? To hurt me?"

When there's a "should" there's a judgment, an expectation...a self-imposed requirements...no reality in those, I believe. If his truth right now was that he isn't choosing to love you or feeling like he loved you...you would experience pain. Your desire is to be loved by this man, chosen by and acted lovingly toward. Would feel like loss, a void, disapproval, maybe?

Tell me, if you really knew and believed and felt you were lovable...would him not choosing to love you right now feel the same way? Would you be mourning the loss of his love, like annihilation to you...or grieving the loss of enjoyment, companionship, intimacy and joy?

Not, "Oh, well, he doesn't love me." How about, "He doesn't believe he loves me right now. He did believe he did, now he doesn't. He has said his resentment, anger and pain block his feeling loving...and that he's working on acting from his choice to love instead of waiting for the feelings to motivate him. Because his feelings are blocked."

What's real? What do you know? Does anyone ever stop loving someone, or do they stop focusing on them, treasuring them? Do they stop choosing loving actions and then feel like they don't love? Or do they just choose not to love the other person?

The abused posters on this board love their abusers...and wonder why. To me that emphasizes love is a choice...we make it deep within ourselves...and that's why A love ain't real...it's made on the surface, to an unknown...and why we can fall out of love with our spouses because we stop knowing who they are today, yet we still choose to love them...and then get the feelings from our beliefs unblocked by getting to know them new each day. I'm not saying this well...I think we start with our spouses when we're dating with that surface love...and the choice goes deeper and deeper over time, feeling committed even as we remain committed; we deepen our own choice through our actions...until, in my case, it was so below my radar, of what I could comprehend, I couldn't even identify it as a choice...it felt like a physical mandate, an automatic mental and emotional choice...and I fought against it...against myself...

We sort through our pain...and yes, experiencing rejection (which is what we perceive) is painful...separating the added pain of choosing to believe he doesn't love us because we are not good enough, defective or unlovable...that's like stabbing self and blaming the pain on WBF, isn't it? We will experience legitimate pain from rejection...you can have an ardent admirer approach you and you reject him...he will experience pain...is it coming from the outside? He didn't know you, only saw you from afar and built a fantasy about you...saw you being kind to someone else...are you causing him pain? And if you are, is that something you shouldn't do? Is that an act of cruelty or honor and respect?

So enmeshment is taking others emotions into yourself and believing you are responsible for them...and that others feel what you feel, too...if you would feel rejection from someone talking on the phone in front of you, then other humans will too...no separate...and if they don't, they should.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hard to describe for me...The enmeshment for me was not knowing where I ended and my DH began...he had to FEEL my emotions with me...to know them...not just acknowledge them...and I had to FEEL his...take them into me, experience what he experienced as if I were him and he were me...and when I see posters say, "I lost myself somewhere along the line" I interpret that as enmeshment...even though I did this with everyone my whole life...doing the "Mommy and me are one" to an astonishing (and embarrassing) extreme. I couldn't exist unless I was in someone else and they were in me. No wonder I was promiscuous...that would be the physical representation of what I did with everyone emotionally, wouldn't it?

I could feel acceptance, significance through sex with a stranger because I told myself if I wasn't rejected, then I was accepted. Is that a real truth? An adult belief?

A mature one?

You feel fear from not having clarity immediately, about all these things we are discussing...welcome to humanity. Why do you expect yourself to comprehend a foreign language thoroughly in a week, a month or a year? Takes practice, focus, desire and intent, doesn't it? We're just working on the darn focus, aren't we?

You frighten yourself...why? What expectations of yourself do you have that you believe you will die from if you don't achieve? Don't live up to constantly, consistently, day in and day out?

Would you consider that I'm not that great at conveying, communicating my beliefs? My analogy about the trash sucked...I overwhelm myself and lose my way, too, ya know. Why does it only get to be YOUR fault for not understanding...instead of us just not connecting this time...and trying again and again...which is connecting?

I don't know why you frighten yourself...but you better find out! Heehee. You're not frightful, crazy or defective. You can't be in my belief system. You are HNT...I don't expect anything of you. You do not have to meet any requirements in me...and you don't have to believe, feel or think what I do. You don't. I'll respect you, anyway.

"I try to fix people and take responsibilty for what is theirs AND I expect them to fix and take responsibilty for what is mine. I get it."

You choose this...and you can stop choosing it. Talk about a GREAT one to get!!! Way to go!

And you won't stay in that clarity all the time...just keep reminding, taking yourself back to that moment of clarity again and again...to hear what's really being said, take it as it for the words said, and eliminate your immediate perception. That's what I mean by choosing your perception...making it not reactive, but active!

Can you feel the freedom in this clarity?

Or only the self-bash for not having seen it sooner?

Or for having it at one time and not keeping it? For losing clarity?

"I am not sure what you mean here by be safe enough to know their intent. What if you cannot know their intent?" See how vague I can be?

Okay...if you have eliminated LBs to others and to yourself...and you really know that fixing is abusive, so you stop taking responsibility for what is not yours...then others will share their intent...throw their thoughts, feelings and beliefs...and you still have to realize what they share is their truth at the time as they know it...they may be fogged, be self-deceptive...you won't know...but you will be shared with. At that point, which I believe WBF does already, you can choose to know their truth and choose NOT to believe it in yourself...it isn't your truth anyway...just know their intent, do not react to it. If you decide it's theirs, right now, can change...then you are respect what you know and what you do not know...which trains your brain to not judge...to not go to right or wrong, valid or invalid...for what is intangible...just theirs.

I'm still vague...I can feel it. I'm getting tired.

I think you ask great questions. I believe you are passing me messages from God. Like notes in class...and I appreciate you.

About feeling deeply loved...by knowing you are...yes, when you truly love and respect yourself, you will feel loved...love feels like love, information to us about our beliefs, right? Doesn't say the source necessarily, does it? Why we have to trace to know. And when you love yourself, your choices to act on your love for others is more of a direct connection, more instanteous and easily accessed...so we overflow onto others...loving from the inside outward.

Same for the parts of love...accepting self means you'll accept others; trusting self means you'll trust others; admire, appreciate, celebrate, etc. Same goes for the stuff which hurts..hating self, we hate others; being cruel to self means we'll be cruel to others; bashing self...bashes others. It's in our design...two way street...constant balance.

I think it might be because we recognize "self" in others...so it makes sense to treat them the way we treat ourselves...what do you think?

"I believe we are all equals. I also believe that some people are better at some things and others are better at others." I believe our essence, our selves, are equally created...our actions, desires, talents are different...not better or worse...we manufacture standards...better physically throwing a ball...more emotionally stable...better at math...because we make the standard...nothing to do with the essence. And in a way, it leads us to conclude we are made better or worse, given those standards.

We make the standards. I'm asking you to NOT make a standard to hold yourself to sexually and compare it to OW. That's all. Why bother? To me (now) it is like comparing you to Mickey Mouse. He can meet a lot of emotional needs if he's perceived that way...but he's NOT REAL. That's a standard I've created and I maintain. I believe you have a payoff in the comparison. I could be wrong. I believe it will take you a long time to work through this...and it took a long time for me...I held onto that false payoff...trying to prove my fear of being less than, that comfort zone, and training my brain to believe my DH didn't want me at all...just settled for me, as a whole, because I looked at myself as you are doing, in pieces, comparing those pieces.

I'm a whole being.

I am my DH's wife because I choose to be and he chooses to be husband. Mutual choice. Mutually rewarding. I choose how great a wife I want to be...by holding to my own standards and choosing to love him. He does the same. We connect...gets deeper all the time...because we are recognizing we are whole human beings.

Until I sorted out all the ways I stabbed at innocent self, I couldn't see this reality. I had to stop the LBs to self.

My happiness and well-being no longer depends on my DH's actions. His essence enhances my life...doesn't make or break it...or end it.

"Yes, to me they do remain true. Even if you add "right now". Even if you add "right then". Especially if you add "10 years from now"."

Ahh, here we disagree. I agree to believe one thing and you believe another. For me, your statements are not true without adding the "right now"...because that's the only place we live. They are even more untrue if you add "10 years from now" because that's unknown and will remain so until then becomes now.

I believe we developed tenses to speech to designate what isn't right now...felt, will feel...that matters. And because of this, we convey a message within our words...hiding it from ourselves but not our listener...because if I say, "I don't like you, HNT" and not add the right now...then I am conveying I don't like your essence...and truly, do I even know your essence? I know I'm heavily involved with words, where my investment is...but I deeply believe we talk to ourselves when we speak to others...and that message within the statement is crucially important. "I don't like you choosing to cheat on your WBF" is accurate. "I don't like you, you cheater" isn't...because the message that goes out doesn't convey temporary, in the present, and the message that goes inside me is "I am a cheater" (not someone who cheated) and "I don't like myself" because your actions were mine and if I speak as if they define you, they then define me.

We can care what our loved ones think of us...but when we care more what they think of us than we what we think of ourselves, is that real? Is that a healthy choice? Is that an invitation for them to define who we are, to seemingly give up our power, our responsibility and put it on them? When in reality, we can't dodge our responsibility, only think we can?

The part that baffled you...which was about ME not YOU. Hey, give that back.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was sharing that I was struggling with my words, identifying my great desire, and being honest with you about what was in me right then.

"but not because being with me is more fulfilling. Because I didn't cause as much damage to his life as her. She destroyed his livelihood, his career. What is most important to him. (He is equally responsible, but this is how he sees it.)" Whoa...you think if she didn't do that, they'd ride off in the sunset together, happy forever?

You win because you hurt him less? I would not choose to believe that either. Again...his truth. Not mine. Why choose to let that garbage come into you, be your reality right now? Good to know that's what he thinks right now...check back on that later.

"He did prefer to connect with OW, she would not allow it. But I will be happy that RIGHT NOW, he wants to cnnect with me." Please choose to believe that he didn't connect with OW...his fantasy connected with hers.

You said it perfectly...knowing each other, our essence, takes a lifetime...a lot of self-sharing...they didn't have that...misinformation from bad beliefs is what they had. That's what I believe. And yes, my DH said the same thing during withdrawal. He doesn't think so now.

Don't look for comfort in false beliefs...there isn't any. If the comfort is temporary, you know it's false. Lasting comfort, like in knowing you only control yourself, truly gives solid relief, comfort, validation and acceptance.

You can use that as a signal to identify false beliefs.

"I am very grateful and happy for him and everything he his and does. That is why I am choosing, right now, not to attack my relationship with my own affair."

What I hear you saying is that when you're connected (marathons can do that), then you will choose not to attack your relationship by having an affair, is that correct? That when he's enough, you're good to go. When he isn't?

Flip your beliefs over...and you'll find out what you really believe.

They have those two sides...all of them do...

"I did feel infatuation during that time. I was infatuated with a fantasy, not the real OM, I knew this at the time. After that conversation, the fantasy went away and so did the infatuation."

This was your experience. Why do you not choose to believe that this was the same experience for WBF?

Why would you choose to stay connected to someone who has stated he has feelings for you, which you believe, when you are in a committed relationship? Why did you stay friends with him, knowing you continually fed his pain? His longing? Be really honest here, please.

And now, since you're back to the way you were before the infatuation, it's okay for contact. Okay, so you're good with WBF calling OW, right? Just friends?

Valuing someone as a friend is HUGE...it is an emotional commitment...a choice to love...it is...real friends do that. Through thick and thin. Why I valued my DH so much...my best friend...at one point during his withdrawal, I wailed, sodden with tears, "I miss my best friend. I really do!"

WBF may have no problem with this arrangement because he's giving himself permission to incorporate his friendship with OW into your lives. Just the possibility even. Say, will OM come over for cookouts, play with your daughter? Bring presents on Christmas?

I have a button and this just got pushed. LOL. Not you. Me.

LA

LA,

There ya go. I fixed the sig for you. I believe that everyone is created equal in essence. Very different and unique, but equal. I also believe that people vary in abilities, qualities and better or worse, good and bad, is all just speculation for the most part. A matter of opinion unless it can be measured. I understand that just because WBF's opinion, his belief, his truth, right now of OW's physical and sexual qualities may be that in these areas, she is better than I. That doesn't mean that someone else who could draw the same comparison wouldn't believe, feel otherwise. The difference is that because there is no one else to validate me in that way right now, WBF's opinion, his truth is what matters to me. Why does it matter? Why can't/don't I choose to validate myself? Because I, myself am not completely satisfied with my sexual performance or physical attractiveness. And because of this, I chose to believe that WBF was/is saying, "I'm not satisfied with you sexually or physically either." OUCH! That hurts.

Vulnerability to me is similar to robbing a bank (Sorry, I really like analogies). It's exhilarating in that you could get caught or that you could have a huge payoff. I guess the unknown is what makes it exciting. You don't really know what will happen during the robbery, no matter how much you try to plan. Because you cannot control others' actions. I would feel ecstatic about the money and yet feel terrified of getting caught. For me, vulnerability is the same. It is exhilarating! I am anxious and ecstatic about what I COULD get from it yet terrified that I will get hurt. I doubt the reason that banks aren't robbed more often is because of respect for the law or anything else for that matter. I believe it is because the risk of getting caught is far too great and not worth the possibility of the reward. The possible payoff is not equal to the likelihood of going to jail. And jail is too terrifying an option for most to risk it. For me, sometimes, being hurt is too terrifying an option for me to risk for the possibility of the payoff, the reward. This belief comes from the experience that being vulnerable has led to being hurt more often than being rewarded, seeing the payoff.

Now, if more and more bank robbers were getting away with it, I believe more people would make the attempt. Feeling the risk of getting caught is less likely. If my experience were to be getting more payoffs, be more rewarded for being vulnerable, I would feel the risk of getting hurt is less likely and be willing to be more vulnerable, more often. I just need to allow the opportunity for that change to prove itself. It's not coming out right. I hope it makes sense.


I was very confused about this. I think "bogart" may be the incorrect term for this. To bogart is to take selfishly, to hog, without giving in return. With that definition in mind, this comment made absolutely no sense to me. I think that you were meaning something more like block, Is this correct? I'm sorry. I don't mean to correct you if you infact meant bogart. Help me out with this.


I believe that ignorant is a derogatory term whereas silly isn't. Or at least not as derogatory depending on the context. Huh! Wonder where that belief came from?


I was and still sometimes am the same way. And I too was very promiscuous until I met WBF.


Just that in my moments of clarity, my thoughts and beliefs that I have during foginess seem like that of a crazy person. It seems strange to me how sometimes I can think so differently. Such duplicity. Like black and white.

Yes

No, just disappointment.


Again, very disappointing and frustrating. I think there may actually be something wrong with me. Something that could require meds. Since I'm not one to take meds on a regular basis, I'm going to try to do the best I can without them. I say this because Friday immediately after I picked WBF up from work, I felt like I was heading back to Crazyland. Could not figure out for the life of me why. I couldn't find a trigger or cause or anything. I was perfectly fine and then, BAM! Not just mental or emotional but physical too. Like anxiety. I was so aggravated because I wanted my calm, relaxed, nonpsychotic self back. I tried to take a walk to get out of it. I just couldn't. I eventually did later that night but it was horrible. I felt completely out of control.


No, but I think if she didn't do that it would've carried on long enough for either him or I to decide that we weren't going to be together. So, yes. I think what she did helped to determine my present and at least part of my future.


WBF has told me repeatedly that he has not thought about her for over a month unless I bring her up. So, as far as I know, he's been done with withdrawal for a little while. Do you think he's still in withdrawal? If not, then wouldn't just being out of withdrawal change his belief about OW? That is what concerns me. That he still thinks this about her after withdrawal if that is in fact the case. I would know it's a load of crap if he was still in withdrawal. What I'm wondering is if and when his perception will really ever change.


What I am saying is that because now is the only time, the present, I can't be positive about what happens in the future. Right now, my intentions are to choose not to have an affair for the remainder of our lives together. I can only say what my intentions are right now. Also what I am saying is that as long as I don't set standards and expectations, and learn to care for myself, he will always be enough. This is what I am striving for. I will always have desires and needs, but they are not automatic. It is his choice to meet them. He isn't responsible for them. If he ever does meet (by his choice) the standards and expectations that I had when I was a citizen of Crazyland, then that will be an amazing bonus for me. But my life and our relationship doesn't depend on it.


I do believe this, The difference is that I have always known the reality and the fantasy. I know that what my truth about OM at the time of infatuation is very different than my truth about OM after the infatuation was over. Supposedly, the infatuation is over with WBF and his truth about OW remains the same.


The OM has been stating his feelings for me for almost 14 years, long before I met WBF. OM has been there through many relationships. They came and went and he was still there. I was not going to cut off my 14 year friendship just because I had decided to be in a committed relationship. Still won't. Because if this relationship ends (almost did) he (OM) will still be there. As just a friend. I think that the only reason this guy even expresses his feelings for me is because he believes that nothing will ever come of it. How was I feeding his pain? From being his friend? What pain, anyway? Of not being with me?? I don't believe that he actually wants/wanted to be with me. I think that I'm just a fantasy to him. Always have been. Even in the 3 day affair. He expressed his desire not to go beyond the phone conversations we were having. No sex, no romantic relationship. These were his desires.

The way I see it is that (so called) OM is innocent in all of this. During the 3 day EA, I was trying to seduce him. He was just being himself. He didn't want to be involved, especially if WBF was still in the picture. When I told him that we had to stop because WBF had made a decision to work on our relationship and I wanted to do the same. He thought I was telling him that I was never going to talk to him again. He was relieved to stop what we had been doing and devastated to think that he would lose me as his BF. That was not what I was telling him and he was fine once I cleared that up.

He is not at all aware of my intentions to have an A this time. And to be honest, until recently, I had never looked at the 3 days as an A. WBF was undecided as to whether or not he wanted to try to work things out with me. It had been 2 excruciating months dince D-day and it didn't seem that he was any closer to making a decision. I was moving on. A distraction from my pain. WBF was aware and I believe is what helped him make his decision. Not completely, of course, because OW doing what she did is what ultimately helped him.


NO, not okay. They were not friends before or after the A. And certainly not friends for 14 years. It went from professional, platonic relationship to 6 month A. And OW was certainly not innocent or a victim. She was fully aware of what she was doing and who she was doing it with and to. This woman used to come to my house and flirt with my man right in front of me. I now know that is when the A thoughts started. OM (still hate calling him that) never did anything to intentionally hurt WBF. Very different situations.


He better not. He would be insane to even think such a thing. I asked WBF what he wanted me to do about the situation. He said that he doesn't need NC forever. Maybe just for a little while. He's still considering it.


Our friendship isn't like that. We just talk on the phone. Not even that often actually. I almost never see him. I have only seen him like 5 times in the last 6 years at a carnival or something and WBF has always been with me. I don't hang out with him. The 3 day thing was on the phone.

Thank you for defining bogart...you're right, I didn't have it right. Block and bogart were synonyms to me. Yet, I remain confused...to hog selfishly...uhm, they are love deposits in your own bank...why not hog them selfishly instead of block them from coming in from WBF, and not from others who are not friends to your marriage?

You might want to thwap me for remaining in my own belief system...but why not risk being vulnerable? The payoff is in knowing you already are and when you share, you affirm you know and accept you are, love yourself and choose to share yourself, anyway. Each tells self, "I can handle rejection and judgment. I know where to leave them." And half of what you felt after your marathon of both sharing, was this surge of feeling close to yourself, as well as WBF.

That's what I've experience.

I like how you looked at a word and thought about it differently...with ignorance. I can see how silly sounds less of a put down...and I believe in ignorance--I am ignorant of a drug deal and I don't mind that at all. I don't know it firsthand and until I do, I will be ignorant, happily, by choice.

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Gaining and losing clarity...losing clarity, happened after you picked up WBF after work...can you help me out and remember what each of you said, what you thought, what images you saw in your mind, where you lost it?

I found that my completely out of control feeling came from my hidden permission to act on my feelings directly...which I didn't see until I was in a moment of clarity. I don't think you're crazy at all. I think you have a deep permission to react and haven't revoked that belief yet.

And yes, our emotions, thoughts, physical sensations and spirit are all bound together...one will manifest in the other...feeling fear as a tight chest, seeing red in your mind's eye (anger), distorted assumptions in your thoughts from stubbing your toe (anger and pain)...that's not crazy. That is human.

You were aware of it and acted on your own stuff!! You took a walk, and eventually, you succeeded getting back into control...AWESOME!!! Seriously...you did that. Way to go!

So I hear you saying you're using OM as back up? You've used him in this capacity again and again...committed to the friendship and him being a fall guy?

Have you heard of emotional torture? He can sign up...that's his part...your part is knowingly torturing someone and being okay with that.

He's not good enough to be chosen to marry and have a family with, but he's good enough to keep around when you don't feel loved, have enough attention or want to feel affirmed that you aren't awful?

Now, confession time. One of my A's was with a lifelong friend just as you've described OM. I'm not talking from judgment, but from experience. Seriously. And you nailed his fantasy part, both ways...took me 25 years to do that. Good job. Can we use an analogy here? Fantasy like a drug...you know you're supplying, contributing to his addiction to fantasy by staying friends though you consider yourself married...which I did and was married...thanks to MB, I have finally removed myself from this position of supplying and denying...feeding off and refusing...and I'm much better for it, I believe. My goal of living in truth is better served and achieved by doing what is really difficult. Then my part stops and he is free from my contact, to live his own life without the drug from me. He can get it elsewhere. I stopped torturing someone. He is as capable as I am of having relationships; his choice to have them or not and finally, my choice was to severe that knowledge, influence and not use another human being.

I had to stop taking the drug in tiny doses to stop giving it.

Helped me tremendously in doing my own self-care. He had to do a lot of it when my DH seemingly wouldn't. Praise, strokes, acceptance, appreciation and admiration...all he did for me recounted, verifying I was worthy. Take away the crutch and stand on my own frees me. That was deep usery on my part. I was crippling myself.

I made my DH my best friend. To have a male BF is a conflict you are choosing which may add to your emotional confusion.

So, he can't handle his own devastation? Is that what you think? You cured him of it? See how you take what isn't yours? You rob a lot of emotional banks. Can I be the one to jail you from it? You will not allow yourself to live a respectful life unless you stop doing that. You will continue to rob for the high, the false reward (stealing money from yourself...banks hold our money...not theirs) and being upset you aren't respected because you don't respect.

That was my experience.

What if WBF was BF with OW? What if? Would that be okay? What if he constantly compared you to her in times of stress, called and got admiration, validation, praise and acceptance when you were rejecting him from her? Would that be okay? What if he had the power to not devastate her, choose her emotions over yours, would that be okay?

Living imbalanced contains a lot of pain. Confusion. Feelings of being lost, out of control...which is fantasy versus reality living. If WBF had a female best friend, what would you be then? Second best?

What you're doing is called situational ethics and I'm asking you to get to principles, which apply in every situation. Takes you creating and maintaining your own code and living from it, not basing your choices on others' possible responses.

I think WBF would be very sane to believe such a thing. Being friends with people who are not friends of the marriage (relationship) is dangerous. You cannot control them, they have agendas you know nothing about (like OW), and your part is to protect your relationship, which you consider a marriage.

If you wanna be married, do the work. If the piece of paper doesn't matter...then please apply the rules. You're two humans in a human marriage. Protect that union by making better choices. Part of recovering from an A is seeing what existed pre-A you can change to protect the marriage. This is one of them.

My DH didn't cut off contact with my longtime friend, either. Until he got clear enough on not wanting to see himself as the bad guy and was truthful. He was anger with OM, felt resentment and I cut all contact.

See, it was an EA from seven years ago and I only told BH about it two years ago. Took him a year to his own truth. When OM emailed me his feelings again and I showed the email to BH as part of my transparency. It was hard. I knew how much BH felt...and did it anyway. Then I took action, not to fix BH's feelings...but to protect my marriage where I had allowed it to remain vulnerable where it didn't have to be. I had the power.

And we make others our friends, enemies, best friends, husbands. We make them those positions in our lives...not because of who they are, but where we place them...our half is as powerful as theirs. We choose the levels of intimacy, just as you raised yours with OM for three days...very much the duration of mine, btw...and we choose our mates as best friends by being their best friend.

I ask you to go inside yourself and see where you have placed OM...how his connection to you (by phone or otherwise) feeds you...how your own placing of him benefits you...look at the crutch for how it really is...what it serves in you, about you, for you.

LA

LA,


I don't want to be selfish about it. When WBF deposits love units, I usually feel I want to return the favor. Not that I have to, just want to. Do block deposits from others, especially OM except for when I am actively seeking them. To be honest, I've always cringed when OM expressed his feeling for me with the exception of the EA. If I were to talk to him now (which I haven't been and don't plan to anytime soon), and he expressed any feelings or affection, I would cringe. I usually don't like it at all. It feels awkward. I don't want to hear it and I somehow feel obligated to return the favor, which I never have except during the EA.


I certainly don't want to thwap you. I admire you for that. I have been trying to risk vulnerability. It seems to be paying off well so far. So, the way I am, I will continue unless and until it bites me in the butt.


Not really sure. I have been nit-picking the moments over and over to try and figure it out. He got in the car. Somehow, a telephone book delivery job that we have been doing was brought up. Don't remember by who and the next thing I know I was flipping out. We had a few routes for over a week that hadn't even been started yet and they are supposed to be finished within 2 days. I started nagging and blaming and defending myself (all for no apparent reason) about it not being finished. After that, every little thing was getting to me. We came back to my mom's and she asked "Why are you so aggravated?" and I replied, "I don't know but it's aggravating me."

At first, I thought maybe it was triggered by me feeling that WBF hadn't given me as much attention as I had hoped for after getting in the car. Now, that I'm thinking about it. It probably had nothing to do with him at all. I'm thinking now it was because of disappointing myself. I kept telling myself that after WBF started his new job I was going to get all the things done that had needed getting done for a while. I hadn't done anything all week. No motivation to. See, I have unrealistic expectations of myself, not just others.

Again, this is just a theory of what might have triggered it. I don't know for sure. All I know is that I hated it and wanted out. When I told WBF that I was going to take a walk he asked why. I don't normally do that. I told him, "I don't know if you've noticed but for the last few days I have been out of that funk I was in. Right after I picked you up, it came back. I don't know why. It's not your fault, you didn't do anything. I'm just gonna take a walk to try to figure out why and try to get out of it. I'll be back."

So, I took my walk. Mostly without alot of thought because I wasn't feeling emotionally cluttered like I did when I was in my "funk". Just observing the surroundings. I still felt it when I came back, but over the course of the night it slowly went away. I have been fine since. Seems very strange to me. It cames on like a switch, but just sort of faded away. I couldn't get rid of it no matter how hard I tried to fight it. Any thoughts?


No, am not nor have I ever used him as a backup. He was just conveniently located at the time I was looking for a distraction. I had actually been pursuing a few other guys but it never went anywhere. During WBF's A, I had turned to my friends and family for support. Unfortunately, so much so that I had worn out my welcome. All I wanted to do was talk about it and they were tired of hearing about it. I had not included OM into the private details of my relationship up until that point. I felt he was the only person at that time that was willing to listen and the only one to offer some tough love, yet be willing to back me up on any desicions that I had made. All my other friends have families and lives of their own and felt they had their own problems so couldn't be bothered with mine. They tried, but after a while it got to be too much for them. So, all I had left was OM. I was lonely and heartbroken and he was the only one left who would talk to me. No matter what I wanted to talk about. I feel like he helped save my life. I was feeling suicidal and he convinced me that I had so much to live for.

I wasn't looking for him to be the OM, but I allowed it. But again, I was looking at it as moving on, not an EA.

Don't know how I'm torturing him. I believe that just being his friend, I am giving him all he wants. He doesn't want to be with me. He's not even sure of his sexual orientation. His only sexual experience was with a man (I drove him to that meeting) and he has a huge crush on his only other friend besides me, which is a man.

The truth is, if I knew that he wouldn't be lonely for the rest of his life, I would have no problem cutting off contact with him. He has 2 friends, yes, 2, total, no exaggeration. No family except for his grandfather whom he lives with and who treats him as a slave as he is too old to do anything himself, or so he believes. Everyone else in his life is out of the picture. He had another friend. A girl we went to school with. She stopped talking to him over a year ago. She abandon him for her Boyfriend. He's adopted anyway but his (adoptive) father died when he was a child and his (adoptive) mother abandon him for her boyfriend. His brother (also adopted) is in jail for 20 years and the only other friend he has is about to get married and abandon him for his relationship. He doesn't have a job, a driver's license, no school. He's a social outcast and as you can see, has a history of being left behind for others' relationships. I don't want to do that to him. He's done nothing in all this. He has just been a friend, a very good friend. Is there a fault in that? Why does he deserve to be punished for my thoughts, my intentions?

I, myself could live without him for the rest of my life. But I am pretty much all he has left and why should he have to live with nothing because of my choices? Yes, I think he couldn't handle his own devastation. I know that isn't my stuff and he would never let me believe that he couldn't. But I know he couldn't. I have witnessed first hand the devastation he has experienced and he has lost his mind with much less. I just can't bring myself to do that to him.

And BTW, nothing has ever stopped this guy from being a friend of the marital relationship except for WBF himself. And another thing is, I no longer think of my relationship as a marriage. The only thing stopping it from being is WBF and his lack of "being in love" with me. Yeah, yeah. Then I guess I don't belong here if that's the case. It is afterall, MARRIAGEbuilders. I think I'll stay awhile anyway, if you don't mind. To work on me.

I'm sorry, LA. I am off on a tangant and I mean no disrespect to you at all, but it feels good to get this all out. I'll continue. I hope you don't mind.

What if WBF was BFs with OW? Never happen. I would've never got involved with a man who had a female BF. I've already learned my lesson with that. WBF chose to be in this relationship despite that fact. And no, I'm not implying that he deserves any of this. He doesn't. Not at all. That's why I've decided not to have the A in the first place. (The 2nd time, not the 1st, so I guess in the 2nd place.)

I don't blame WBF for doing anything if he isn't getting what he needs from me. If he gave me plenty of opportunity and I had just opted not to respond, that's my fault, not his and I would feel like I chose not to give him what he needed and why should he do without because I'm selfish? That's why I blame myself for his A. The only thing is that I didn't know what he needed. He never came to me and said there was a problem, so I never had an opportunity to give him what he needed. He knows what he isn't giving me, and the way I saw it (past tense) was that if he isn't doing what I need him to do, I can get it elsewhere. Not justifying. Very wrong, I know.


I disagree with you here, LA. OM would've never had any opportunites whatsoever if WBF hadn't had his A. I wouldn't have let myself be in that position if that weren't the case. Pre-A, this man was NEVER an issue, with either one of us.

Again, I apologize for my rant. This was not my best work. If WBF wants me to end contact, I will. Although I really don't want to. Not really sure what purpose it will serve and I'm certainly not going to do it if WBF doesn't feel it is necessary.