if just jilly were the OW that my husband marries i would hope you would all ignore her and give your time to those people who have NOT destroyed someone else's life and marraige for thier own happiness

I have lost all respect for you, BigK and MEDC. You didn't answer my questions, mocked me and I feel like dirt you tread on.

Is that whining and complaining in your book? In mine, it's sharing honestly.

MEDC has double standards...where he says posting equals support and approval when I do it and when ML or others do it, it's not.

What a weird world. I'm grieving my lost admiration and trust in you all right now. The mockery cuts hard into my heart.

Like taunts on a playground. May your endless pride and permissions soothe your marriage, BK. Contribute. And MEDC, you, too.

Not because of what you believe, because of what you chose to do as acts from your beliefs. Your extremes are sure terrifying from this receipients viewpoint. I'm sure newbies and even oldies will tread carefully around you. I wouldn't be honest with you if I were newly come, knowing this decimation, assasination and taunting.

You think that was passive-aggressive, my statement to ML? It is my guess. I owned it. From my experience, we often mix AA and Al-Anon...and have those in Al-Anon who are alcoholics. It's not uncommon. Wasn't a shot...was another way to view what she believes. Hers is hers. Like she said, no one has power over her.

Good to see where you leap to defend someone and not stop them from attacking others. Good to know.

LA

bwaaaaaa

BK,

"LA - I can't believe someone like you would say something like that. WOW. That is the opposite of all you preach here on MB."

Good to know you understand I feel as shocked and astonished at your conduct, ML's, MEDC and others here. Seemed to me to be the opposite of all they preached as well. News to me.

Not the opposite...who she was, not who she is...thanks for stating it like fact again, BK.

ML - I have no idea what you meant...are you saying you went to one Al-Anon meeting and then booked to ACOA?

LA

It was a gratuitious cheap shot, LA. You can't view something "another way" when you don't have the facts and the truth. Feelings are not truth. I am a little surprised to see this come from someone who constantly cries "abuse."

And again, I say that my experience in Al-Anon was not seeing others resentment for recovering alcoholics. I saw others who felt relieved, hopeful, admiring and took that home. You take what you want and leave the rest.

Your experience was different. Your conclusions were different.

There is another side, ML. I would like you to acknowledge this as valid experience as well.

And if that was your one night with one group, supports why we are encouraged to try a different group each night until we find our fit.

LA

I would like for you to admit that you have NO KNOWLEDGE of my situation and therefore, could not possibly have "another side." You have no truth, no facts, no nothing about my experience, LA. So, if there is "another side" it could not be possessed BY YOU, someone who has NO knowledge of the truth of that specific situation.

Soooooo....

You are using that comparison to say that there are BSs here who will take comfort in seeing their worst case scenario supported...

or...

They can take comfort in what an obvious farce it is [that can't be right..it's mean]

or...

The will be relieved hopefull and admiring of JJ because she is...uhm...well she's...>thinks<........

You know I can't think of one single thing.

A lot of them are probably glad she's leaving so that they don't have to watch her affair get called legit and also so all that have been having the same circular boring [to all but us] discussions will shut up already.

la.....you are a fraud.

ML,

I'll agree to disagree. I was saying your experience wasn't mine...and isn't common. The experience you shared and the choice you made from it. I didn't say a thing about the truth. Only what you shared.

I didn't know you then...and I believe who I thought you were now, my perception, has drastically changed. I fear you. I know you say I spin...and my head spins when I write out something simplistically and you deliver it back unrecognizably.

Noodle...just as when WS's in A's first come on here...we hurt anew when they post...we endeavor to hand them reality...in an effort to save their marriage. Over time, they are not who they were when they first came on here. They change. They are NOT who they were.

Which is what I was referring to with ML. Who she was. Think about an WS in the fog. Most of the AA'rs who came to our Al-Anon meetings had been in AA a long time. Weren't new, still working out their addiction, their fog. I thought this might have been the case with ML. I don't know. I know that who she is now in her recovery must be very different than back then.

Cheap shots, eh? Wowsers...do you define your own cheap shots to others here, too, ML?

And yes, Noodle...BS/FWS can hurt anew and they can feel relieved because JJ's 12 years were full of fog. No prize, no fixes...and she owns that. She shows all the damage and how it ripples, and continue to ripples in her life. The consequences. To say it is only hurtful to BS's excludes where it may not be. And until ML shared about Al-Anon, I didn't see that.

In real life, we mix. There's hope, there are amends, it is heartening to see them grow and change, as they share, as much as it has been a relief to AA'rs to see Al-Anon'rs grow and change. They can see their mates, their parents, their own children in the Al-Anon'rs...as well as the other side.

Al-Anon is all about resentment...how we create it, in our controlling the universe, shouldn't be this way mindset. Our own fog from our FOO, our marriages, brothers, sisters...so yes, it's absolutely unusual what ML experienced. When we feel resentment, it's a signal...that we are not in our own power and limits. We are not in our equality and giving it to our Higher Power. How we personalize into our lives what isn't there, through others.

And we learn to not presume, as you did, that a lot of them are probably glad...they may not care...they may tremble knowing their own secrets may now not be shared...or maybe they will be bold and tell us. Eav did...others on the thread that BobPure linked. And I'm taking you are saying this for you? That you will be glad? ML, MrsW, MEDC, BP, Resilient, BK?

I don't think that taking comfort that A marriages are fantasy is mean...it's real. Until one of them wakes up...and A's will happen again in A marriages...and when one wakes up, life changes.

I understand you can't think of this, Noodle. What other posters have been saying doesn't seem to have been understood by you. I get that.

LA

Of course I can think of it LA...it's not a subtle or sophisticated point you are making, I just reject it on grounds that it lacks merit in my opinion.

And my point is that you could not have known what happened because you DON'T know the truth about my situation. All you know about is your OWN experience. You can't make judgments about that which you don't know have facts. Yet you did. You did it based on feelings, and as I pointed out, feelings are not truth.


I define your remark as a cheap shot, LA, and that is the issue you keep sidestepping.



LA, this may be how you handle your resentments and how Alanon treats resentments universally, but Alanon is a collection of INDIVIDUALS. So when I saw a woman express discomfort about my presence and another ask if her comments would be taken back to AA - to her husband - I saw no reason to continue there. I could just as easily get the help I needed from ACOA. And I did.

Noodle,




And I'm not believed when I say I'm confused? Wow.

To me, this is gaslighting.

LA

I might ought to change my name to "ABystander." I have been watching this thread for some time. I have all sorts of mixed emotions. People I trust and respect are on opposite sides of the debate.

Each has looked at the elephant and seen something different.

Bob Pure finally brought me into the picture with something LA said and I want to say something about that. While LA devastated me with her post some year plus ago, I have also seen solid advice from her to various people and I respect her for that. Bob and I also tangled once when I made a mistake and he took me to task for it although I think I brought up a decent point that responded to something he said. Bob chewed me out and I deserved it for being insensitive.

Yet I totally respect Bob's advice and the journey he has been on. And I am in awe of Bob's ability to use his native tongue (flacid?). Yet I also have seen value in some of FH posts, especially but not exclusively the secular ones and have said so more than once.

The point I want to make is that we are all human. At the same time, we all approach our time here on MB from a PERSONAL point of view. With few exceptions, we handle ourselves by putting our own values in our posts. We take a long look at who posts what from what has happened to our own selves. In other words, we take things personal and that is not bad or good, it just is.

This is a pro marriage forum. If it wasn't, most of us wouldn't be here. I know that I wouldn't. And I think that most marriages can be saved, especially those with kids. Yet I also think that some marriages are a form of ******. I believe my first one was that way. I fought for five years and lost. No shame there. It was what it was.

My wife has also been married before. If you knew the pain she went through from that over opinionated and under educated cretin, some of you might recommend something harsher than divorce. And some would probably condemn her for getting a divorce, or me. And yes I understand the point of an affair marriage, an anathema to most on here because it hits home, where we live although that doesn't apply to me or my wife.

I want to share one thing.

I have seen the heart of the wayward, more than one. I have seen the heart of a divorced person both in myself and in my wife and others. I have spent time reading gloryb and on Langley's forum. I have seen entitled critters who shouldn't be allowed to breath the same air as the rest of us and I have also seen the tortured souls of human beings who made a mistake or were forced by abuse or some other dynamic to make decisions that violated the until death clause of a marriage. And I have been there myself. Yea and I have also seen the problems we bless our kids with doing our socalled adult thing.

I have also seen people change over their lifetime for better and sometimes for worse. There is no RESET button in life. It is what it is and we become the sum total of our interactions and personal experiences. Some of who are strong NOW, forget when we were weak. We forget what it was like not to feel safe. We forget how vulnerable we were to anyone or anything that could make us feel safe. But we do remember the pain. None of us, wayward or betrayed, can forget that unless we are a total critter.

What I see in JJs posts is pain. What I see in the posts of those trying to rip her head off is pain because of how she got where she is. What I see in the debate is pain.

Heck, I can't read the just found out forum, too much pain, nor can I read about the OC, same thing. I avoid too much pain and concentrate on the positive, the places where I can help someone deal with the issues that causes them pain and I clearly understand that they are where they are and that there is NO RESET button. I don't agree that once a cheater, always a cheater. I do believe that people can learn from their mistakes and be better for them. Otherwise, I would have gotten a divorce long ago. In fact, I bet that even some of those who said that in this thread don't really believe it.

I am not here to cause pain. I am here to share my knowledge and personal experience to help people IN pain and to help myself in the process. If someone posts something that I think is bogus, unless it is so outrageous, I just ignore it. If someone comes here after being married 12 years, with children and I can help them, I will. And while I might not like how they got where they got, all I have to do is think of the kids and there you go.

My bottom line is that I don't think it serves the purpose of this forum for there to be a wild debate about whether or not someone who says they are in pain should be helped or not based on their distant past. In my view, those who want to help should be allowed to do so and those who don't want to help should keep their counsel to themselves, like I did as an example and maybe for the reason that those who were more open with their comments had in mind. Maybe yes and maybe not. That isn't important one way or the other.

Each side on this issue is convinced they are right. I note that Justuss has edited posts. And moderators here use a very light touch. My point is that it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. There really is no right or wrong in this case because;

We don't need the real helpers, the long time posters, the ones who make this the place it is, the real helpers, the ones who help those in pain, tie up and have a public fight. None of us is perfect. There is no RESET button in life. We need to deal with things as they are, not as we would want them to be. And we don't need fights about whether or not we should help someone in pain, or not, as the case may be. Those who want to help should and those who don't shouldn't.

Otherwise, a fight sends the wrong message to those who seek help. As always, my opinions are my own. I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone. That was not my intent.

This thread is going to close shortly, as well it should.

Larry

Sorry LA,

Misunderstood your statement.

I don't see anything admirable in her "journey". I understand what other say they see..but I reject it.

Make sense now?

Loud and clear? No gaslight?

Larry,

Thank you for your posts. I am sorry I said that to you. I should not have. I remember BP's fury then on me...and felt I deserved it, had to shut up and take it. Part of that was with me this last week on this thread. Especially him bringing it in to discredit me. I feel like I most likely have a lot of my own posts which would do that. He chose yours.

To you, I apologize. I have not shared that belief with anyone here...it is solely applicable to me in my own situation. Your thread taught me not to be that honest, ever. This one brought it home more.

That was my amends...and I didn't pony up with a direct apology before. Thank you, BP, for affording me another opportunity. God works.

LA

LA


I understand that all advice here is personal and not always applicable. That is the lesson there, not honesty one way or the other.

I accept what wasn't necessary. Now go help someone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

So
Best case scenario:

* JJ gets help she wants
* Bystanders don't read forum elders legitimizing their worst nightmare on page one of their town square
* Scripture arguers can continue to try to convince the world they are more correct than, say, Augustine was on this issue of the legitimization of affair marriages but in a form where only volunteers will attend. Who knows ? Without the strong passions some of us might even earn from such a debate ?

A good outcome from an horrible situation. I hope it stays resolved.

Good luck Jilly.

Still can't resist the desire attack other believers, eh?

Perhaps if MM does start one of the threads he mentioned you might actually discuss differing opinions based upon what the Scripture actually says. I have my doubts though, since you ignored and/or refused to answer some very basic questions that were put to you about fundamental beliefs that the Scripture is VERY clear about.

That there are difference of "opinions" is one of the reasons that there are different denominations and groups who all call themselves "Christian." But actually discuss what those differences are and what the Scripture does say? Doesn't seem likely that you are interested in getting at such a discussion that might confirm your position or cause you to rethink your position.

Interesting.

FH

I will not debate further with you because I cannot trust you based on my interactions with you hitherto. You twist, you manipulate and you come prepared with a trick bag of scriptural traps to render competing viewpoints irrelevent.

I will continue to learn and discuss scripture with my pastor and church eldership, at Sunday worship, at my weekly bible study group and with my friends online on another forum.
Strangely, my pastor has three decades pastoral experience and is not nearly as dogmatic as you are.

Regarding your opinion of me, it is none of my business.