Jen, I think your insight is invaluable.

And please don't regret posting this topic. Its important.

I think you are exactly right in ~why~ a WS doesn't reveal the truth. (I am NOT saying it is right, I think all of us educated students of MB can see that its the wrong way to think....but foggy people don't have the perspective we all have...)

Back in the day (for me anyway) there was another element to why I didn't reveal when questioned, and why I evaded telling the truth when confronted.

And that is the avoidance of intimacy. It takes a tremendous amount of ~trust~ to reveal your greatest weaknesses and mistakes to someone. And I did not have that kind of relationship with my BS, even though that is what he wanted. The walls between us were huge and I had constructed them. I was very uncomfortable with breaking them down.

At the time I was questioned, my loyalty was to that other relationship. I was motivated to protect that. Not get pulled back to my BS. That Plan A groundwork had not yet been laid -- it wasn't "safe" for me to be honest.

Just another thought on Jen's topic of why a WS doesn't come clean....

Hi Jen,

From someone who's been on both sides of the fence (that would be ME):

It's interesting, because my ex-H tells me that if he had to do it all again, he *wouldn't* want the details. But that might be because he's a conflict-avoider, at heart. And it didn't *help* that I was willing to tell him anything he wanted to know at the time, he could look at the OM face-to-face (and picture what I'd said) and he'd talked to him... he could put all the details together.

Me? I wanted ALL the details -- and I mean ALL. I don't think I *ever* got them.

Years after my ex's first affairs, he sat me down and told me some things I'd wanted to know years before, you know *while it was happening*. It made me SICK. Had I known some of what he told me, I mean AT THE TIME IT WAS HAPPENING, I might have made some other choices regarding how I handled our "recovery". I felt duped and stupid to hear it like that. Frankly, at that point, yeah, he could have kept that stuff to himself. But he felt guilty. He didn't finally come clean for ME, it was for HIM.

I learned most of the details of Squid's affair from OMs confessions to his GF that she then ran by me for correlation.

I asked why Squid didn;t tell me herself and she gav eme differnet answers at different times:

"I didn't want to hurt you" ( its the act, not knowledge of it that hurt me)

" I didn;t know what you wanted me to say"

" I couldn't remember" (yeah, right)

" It makes me feel terrible to face what I did. I can't believe I did those things. I was never any good at taking responsibility "

and most tellingly :

" I was afraid that if I told you the dreadful truth , you'd leave me"

I found out pretty much all I needed to know from both OM GF and Squid. I feel still that they share secrets that I will never learn, which hurts, but I can't see how dragging them out of Squid like pulling a molar will help. And in truth whatever promises they made each other it is clear after 20 months of NC that the promises meant NOTHING.

But yes, a FWS should tell all IMO. IF the BS wants to hear it.

KiwiJ, I think this is a good thread.

You pointed out that before MB, even YOU didn't understand why full disclosure was so important.

Put yourself in the shoes of a foggy WS, and you can't expect any kind of sound judgement on this subject. It's all about self-preservation, and damage control. Collateral damage? Maybe for some, but not all.

I'm with LadyClueless on this one. Toolman contends that the reason he restarted his affair, and kept it secret is because ~~people~~~ told him it was more respectful to do it in secret than to just tell me he was "dating others." I contend there is nothing "protective of imanotherone/stonecold" by his behavior. It was protective of toolman. It allowed him to live in temporary harmony.

Now, I'm forced to piece together all the ~stuff~ about his A on my own. He could have provided it, but didn't. It wasn't to spare me any pain, since he could give a chit how I feel. It's to spare him the embarassment.

Some FWS will be repentant and want to ~~spare~~ their BS's further pain, like yourself. But many are trying to spare themselves the pain of an extended recovery or a divorce. Hardly ~noble~ IMVHO.

Good topic, though~

I agree Kiwi, FWS are not always motivated by self-preservation.

But there is another reason to open up about the truth--that isnt related to the BS--it is a necessary step in the FWS own personal recovery. Learning to be courageous enough to tell the truth when it is hard--when their are consequences attached is tied to learning not to cover-up /stuff their own feelings in the M...which was probably a pattern somewhere in the past of the FWS....and which led down the wrong road.

I feel the same way about my FWW and the OM. I believe that I know why I feel that way too - she didn't come completely clean on D-Day and it took months for "all" of the details to come out. Not the best approach to take if a WS wants to re-establish trust. The subliminal message that they're sending by avoiding telling the truth because (insert the usual reasons given by the WS here) is "I'm prepared to be honest only when it suits me."

AHuman,

I absolutely agree with what your saying.

I had a somewhat different situation with my H.

I told H I would answer any question he asked. I knew it would be painful, but I was prepared to do it.

H really didn't ask very many questions, and to this day he doesn't know ANYTHING about OM (including his name) or the details of our A.

At first this was very troubling to me, because I anticipated he would want to know everything. Instead, it makes him feel safer to not know anything.

Truthfully, this has been a challenge for my recovery.

Several months ago, H woke me up in the middle of the night crying. He told me how much he loved me and he wanted to let me know he forgave me. He kept saying it over and over, "I forgive you."

I am still haunted by this, because how can he forgive me when he doesn't even realize the depth or extent of my betrayal?

I want H to feel safe, but on the other hand, I struggle with his forgiveness. He doesn't really know.

I made a promise to H that I will only give him the information he asks for, and I will stick to that promise. I just wish I felt at peace with it.

Exactly.

I hear what Kiwi is saying is the WS point of view.

I hear what Mel is saying is the BS point of view, but most importantly she is speaking of truth.

I still don't see that Kiwi gets that a WS's desire not to tell is NOT done out of empathy for a BS, but self-protection.

Sure, it feels horrible for a WS to do. I'm not arguing that. It feels horrible to watch. I bet it does.

It is not the TELLING that is horrible - except for the WS. The point is that the damage HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE. The BS just doesn't know it.

The WS telling all is only facing consequences of actions that have already taken place.

It is extremely selfish for a WS to think that THEY have the right to decide FOR SOMEONE ELSE what they need to know.

THAT IS NOT PROTECTION, and to think so is delusional and self-protecting.

Kiwi... Please reread my post to you on THIS thread which says exactly what and why I was going to do.



I hope this clears it up.

JL, KiwiJ, & Mel,

Kiwi and Mel,

[color:"blue"] I am wondering if Jen, is really rattling around strategies for approaching WS's about the need for honesty. I don't think the need for honesty can be debated, I don't think it can be debated that honesty is the healing balm although often very painful, for a marriage.

What I wonder is if Jen is really suggesting that as posters we need to factor in that the WS not only is trying to protect themselves, but also trying to protect their marriage and their spouse with the withholding of painful details. If this is the case then the issue is one of awareness when talking to a WS and trying to convince them to be honest and open with the BS.

It is often true if one understands where someone is really coming from it is often easier to reach them and convey important information to them.

Is this where this is going Jen? What do you think Mel?

God Bless,

JL

Post Extras:

KiwiJ
Member


Reged: 02/04/04
Posts: 4971
Loc: New Zealand - bottom of world Re: Twisting the knife [Re: KiwiJ]
#3073201 - 08/03/06 11:31 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply



JL, regretting starting this now as I knew I would.

I only wanted to point out that BS's misunderstand the reason for withholding and from the replies I've had refuse to see it any other way.[/color]

I think JL has hit it right on, KiwiJ Please don't drop this thread, i have gained what i feel is valuable insight from your thread and comments. I have in the past also been helped by your posts. I believe this is a very important thread and would truly like to read more.

Mel, thank you for your valuable insight and POV, you know I always appreciate your input, even when it's 2X4s, I guess especially when it's 2X4s.

Thank you,

Eagle15

I had exactly the opposite problem with honesty than most - I got too much, too fast!

I can understand why...H's activities were a natural result of his family's habit of insularity and intense secrecy, so he felt he needed to give up all his secrets and burn his bridges completely. He felt that his urge to keep secrets was so compelling that, if he didn't tell me every single detail right up front, he might never be able to tell me anything.

So I got it all, in lurid detail, from a man speaking coldly and without feeling, utterly numbed to himself and to my reaction. Nearly twenty years' worth...horror upon horror...shock upon shock...affairs with neighbours, colleagues...prostitutes... It was more than I could deal with; my IC described it as 'close to sadistic'...but I think it was the only way he could turn himself inside out.

He could see how much pain he'd caused me, but it took over three years before he could bring himself to face it emotionally, and comfort me.

He told me many times that, when I was obviously hurting, he hated himself so much that he didn't want to be near me; there was no comfort that he could see himself being able to offer. I explained many times that, wherever the pain came from, I still needed someone to hold and comfort me. He could never do it. It's only recently, when I've been deeply hurt by others, that his ability to hold and help me 'cleanly' has been able to emerge.

There's a paradox for each WS, I think...the moment of revelation hurts them and makes them long to be comforted..but the one they want the comfort from is the one who's hurting and needs comfort. Someone had a sig line once that summed it up.

TA

It's pretty clear from the variety of opinions that each WS and each BS is an individual, and copes with difficult issues in their own way.

Like Katie Mae's husband, mine also does not want to know the details and prefers to have his head-in-sand. A few times I told him stuff anyway, to clear my conscience, but he didn't appreciate it.

It's probably best to ask the BS what they want, and then give it to them. If they want total honesty, they should have it. But if not... that view is strange to me, but like Katie Mae I also respect my husband's wishes.

Anyway- I just wanted to bring up the possibility that there may be more than one path leading to recovery, since a marriage involves two individuals.

PORH is the best way to go, early on. Waiting months or years to finally come clean causes, IMHO, yet another type of D-Day and starts the process all over again.

this pretty much draws a circle around how the BS feels
when they learn the life they thought they were living was a lie

I think what Kiwi is getting at is simply this:

A WS does not stand around and consciously, intentionally, with complete awareness of what they are doing, say to themselves, "I think I'm going to withhold information from my BS because I know it will hurt him MORE if I do that."
On the contrary, a WS does NOT YET REALIZE, early on, that is what they are actually doing. It appears to and feels like the WS is doing what is best for his/her BS. Not saying that is reality, just saying the WS cannot see the forest for the trees. And, because of this, throwing words at a WS like selfish, self-serving, cruel and such, is going to look like an attack to the WS, because this is not what they THINK they are doing!
I know that it took me a while to see that I WAS being selfish for not telling all, or at least thinking I shouldn't.
I also would add that I believe it is very common for 99% of the population to think this way. As Harley has said, a lot of what is needed during recovery is counterintuitive....and this is one of those things.


NOW

Yes, duped and stupid.

But...I know there was a time when I actually thought maybe RH was a bit more interested in a woman he worked with, but did not have the guts to ask, and actually convinced myself I didn't want to know. It turns out, he was attracted to her, but never crossed any lines.

So, my question for the BS is, before you KNEW there was an affair going on, and when you possibly had suspected it, did you try to ignore it, pretend it wasn't there, or tell yourself you were imagining things? I am pretty sure the OM's W in my case did this. So, did she actually believe at some point, also, that she thought she was better off not knowing?

NOW

So, my question for the BS is, before you KNEW there was an affair going on, and when you possibly had suspected it, did you try to ignore it, pretend it wasn't there, or tell yourself you were imagining things?

I thought to myself "NO, that's not possible. Mr Pep is such a solid family man, he'd never risk everything."

I am pretty sure the OM's W in my case did this. So, did she actually believe at some point, also, that she thought she was better off not knowing?

Highly UNlikely she thought she was better off not knowing (Possible? Yes. Likely? No.). More likely she thought her husband would never stoop so low. Also, probable her husband was still making her feel loved and desired in many ways.

Pep

Maybe "better off not knowing" was the wrong choice of words. Could she (and other BS) have known it in their guts and chose to believe it wasn't true? Kind of self-denial? Unwilling to face reality?

More akin to unwilling/reluctant to put an ugly face on a much-loved spouse I think.

Pep

I don't know if this example will work for you NOW

If you have one kid who you thought (based on experience) would never sneak money out of your wallet ... but money is missing from your wallet ... you'd likely believe that kid when he/she claims he/she did not take the $$$ >>>> until you find some expensive item they've taken the trouble to hide under their bed.

See?

Pep