NOW:

"So yes, I would say it's the give and take that goes with the territory. Everything is not always going to be even stevens. There will be times when one of you is giving much more than the other. But ideally, the one receiving recognizes this and when he/she is able, will tip the scales back toward the other."

I think it is all perception, as you said. Pep's thread is dead on... I believe it depends on where your mindset is.

Pre-A, I probably would have taken care of the dog and read H's paper eventhough I didn't want to, and he would have been thrilled. I would have seethed with resentment, and thought he was selfish for not recognizing what a bad week I was having and that I was tired.

Post-A, I would take my bath and not only would H take care of the dog and re-read the paper himself, he would probably give me a massage or take me out for ice cream! And the next day, because he let me take care of myself... and because he recognized I needed taking care of... he would probably get an extra special surprise (that he might not otherwise have gotten) when he got home from work. hee hee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So while M is a give and take, I think it all depends on the attitude and health of each of it's members as to what the "perception" of this give and take would be.

Froz, my analogy was to show the reasons and the motives for not giving information. Not whether it's right or wrong to give information. I'm on the same page as EVERYONE here. I firmly believe everyone should have the facts. You could carry my analogy further. The wife says to you "I don't believe you. I need to know." I mean my analogy is extreme, it wouldn't happen IRL to a witness, it would be handled by trained counsellors but if you accept that you're the one with all the information you will be in a position of inflicting extreme hurt on another person.

I started this thread because I've seen so many times an FWS saying "I can't tell my spouse any more detail. It will hurt them too much."

Almost without exception someone on the board comes back and says. No, that's not the reason you're not telling, you're not telling out of self preservation or some other selfish reason.

I just wanted to make it clear that, in most cases and note I say IN MOST CASES not all cases, it's from a wish not to inflict further pain on someone who has already had the knife plunged into them. Hence, twisting the knife.

"You did then what you knew then. Now you know better, you will do better."

Pep, ain't that the truth.

Is it really a huge comfort to someone to know that someone didn't specifically set out to hurt them, but was inconsiderate, rather?

Either way it sucks.

So what you are saying is that the WS isn't sitting there saying to themselves "I will keep these details to myself because I believe that will cause the most damage"?

Okay.

I don't know that I really care.

So because they are ignorant in the belief that it will protect the BS, or because it is a "common" attitude of WS's it is any less destructive?

The damage is still caused.

The WS's that come here have been told - most repeatedly - how destuctive it is, that it ACTUALLY doesn't protect the BS at all (which is the point, not if it is understandable that the WS has that mindset), yet there they sit - on a mountain of details and information they withhold.

I've seen it many times.

I can understand ignorance, but when someone KNOWS - has read and been educated that this is destructive - and then they do it anyway...

It no longer becomes ignorance.

It becomes a CHOICE.

A true "twist of the knife" to someone who is the victim of the selfishness and cowardice of their "F"WS.

what do you mean?

I am not trying to pick on you ... but somehow your saying this when you denied your husband the facts, as well as denying OM's wife the facts ... it just not ring especially true here

Froz, I think there is a difference between "knowing" and "understanding". A person can Know, have knowledge, without really understanding it. Until the FWS gets to that point of understanding, all that knowledge means nothing. For some it takes longer than others.

I learned fairly quickly, but until I did, I sat there baffled as to how not wanting to hurt my BS could be seen as selfish.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Pep, then why did you bring that up?

It makes them no less responsible for their actions and in no way lessens the damage caused by them. The same amount of damage is being caused regardless of whether they understand or KNOW. That seems like a rationalization and an excuse for destructive behavior.

you mean the quote?

I was talking to you when I mentioned that quote ... it's from my other thread ... "Harley is a smart man"

but I don't see how this quote applies to Kiwi right now, do you?

Pep

Pep,

I don't think it's my business to say whether or not that applies to Kiwi right now.

I didn't realize you were quoting that to me, the one Kiwi responded to.

But, it pretty much says what I meant!

Froz,

No, it does not make a FWS less responsible nor does it lessen the damage caused.

How can it be a rationalization and excuse for destructive behavior if the FWS beleives they are doing it because they think they are sparing the BS more hurt?

It's like telling someone who is colorblind that the sky is blue.....but what the colorblind person is seeing is red. And then tell them they are using excuses and rationalizations for painting the sky red when you want them to paint it blue!

That's what I thought!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Because a WS no longer has the luxury of proclaiming ignorance when it has been brought to their attention that in actuality their behavior is not protecting anyone but themselves.

Well, Froz...if they DO still think it is more hurtful to give details about the affair, even after they have been told it is MORE hurtful, then it is probably because they don't quite believe that is so. I certainly can't tell you why some do not believe that.

In my case, when I was told that it would be more hurtful not to answer my husband's questions, I went ahead and answered them....but I still didn't believe he was better off knowing the details. That still came later. I kind of felt snotty about the whole thing! I said to myself "Fine, if he wants to know, fine! He can find out for himself just how much more he will hurt after I give details!"
And yes...I was absolutely STUNNED when he did not seem to be more hurt.

I just did not see what good it would do to tell every little detail, especially when every little detail proved to be a complete farce, and completely meaningless.

I just didn't "get" what bearing it would have on his recovery. I was still pretty "ignorant" because I was not in his shoes.

And I suppose he didn't "get" what I was saying, because he had never been in mine.

ra·tion·al·ize "To devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for (one's behavior"

I think that fairly accurately describes the process of rationalization. I usually KNOW when I am bullshi**ing myself, and I suspect most do too. That doesn't mean that there aren't some who don't truly believe their own bullcrap, but it does not justify not telling the truth.

Here's the thing. It is a bad thing to withhold/lie about affairs regardless of one's "intentions." One's "intentions" do not erase that reality. And reality is what counts.

If I hurt someone, it's best to just face it like man and admit I hurt them. My victim isn't interested in hearing a bunch of crap about "good intentions." He will, however, GREATLY RESPECT a heartfelt remorseful apology coupled with the truth.

Ahh ML - That is my WS atm - believeing his own bullcrap about his 'love' for the ow and how hurt I would be to know 'all the truth'

grrr....

zuj

KiwiJ,

Thanks for bringing this up, the thread is most helpful. What is hard for the BS to wrap their brain around is the fact that someone they love/loved not only hurt them terribly, but seemingly refuses to reach out a hand to help them up. Like all the lies, it is so mind-blowing when it happens, it is surreal. I'm sure that there are some M's where this happens on other issues, but for most people who are affected by A's, their partner being the cause of their pain, continuing the pain which they have in their power to stop, is very harmful to the physche of the BS. It is another betrayal. Thus, it compounds the anger and resentment and distrust, which in a M where the parties decide they want try to recover, it causes more problems to overcome.

It may be that is the key, the FWS is not on board when these conversations are happening with the recovery of the M and it seems disloyal to the affair partner. Unfortunately, most BS's don't have the emotional ability to wait on these issues, but want answers fairly soon after D-day.

Perhaps this thread will do that seems to be your intent, to educate the FWS to the BS's pov and for the BS