I just wanted to comment on your statement from the CrimsonRose thread. Please don't take this as a religious debate... I don't know enough to try. And I hope this does not come across as me trying to convince you of anything... I know that I cannot do that, and frankly, it is disrespectful to both of us. (See Mel and Pep, I did learn something here).

My history... I am a son of ministers... grew up going to Church twice on Sunday and spent probably 3 or 4 nights a week at the church in different activities as a kid... music, youth groups, education, etc... even spent every Christmas morning at a rehab/hostel for men playing the piano and serving Christmas dinner to the homeless.

Until this past year, though, I was a fence sitter. I attended because it was all that I knew. I rarely read the Bible or prayed, and yes, I was one of those who said... I might as well... what if it's true, I don't want to wind up in He!!.

I am now ashamed of that behaviour and thinking. Not only was it wrong, it showed little respect for Christianity or myself. (Maybe a side needs to be chosen... Mrs. W if you read this, know that I am still going to answer your question).

I'm not going to get into the how or why my thinking has changed... although, you can probably guess that it was initiated because of my personal crisis in my marriage. I understand it is a normal reaction for people to either hate God or draw closer during a crisis, therefore this will not be any kind of proof or newsflash to you.

What I want to say is about what I am learning. Being a believer, IMO, is not about getting to Heaven, about religious acts, or about doing good. It is about becoming intimate with God. Finding out who he is and telling him who you are. Like any relationship, it is superficial and unmeaning until the intimacy grows. I didn't ever feel a connection in all my years prior because I didn't try to find out who he was and I was afraid to be real to him. You can't scream at God, or you can't ask for what you want... because that would be selfish... that is a load of garbage. Doing these things builds the intimacy. Praying, meditating, looking at nature, reading the Bible and other religious books... all of this helps to get to know who he is. It is then that the intimacy, belief and faith starts...IMO.

I am still an infant in my learning and there is a lot more to it than this. I still don't know exactly who or what God is. But I wanted to comment on your opinion of Christian's who "do good" to get into Heaven. IMO, that is not being a Christian. We do good things and get to know God intimately because these things are right and good... not because there is a reward at the end.

Similarly, I stay and remain committed to my marriage, even though I don't know if things will work out... because I feel it is right and good... will make me a better person... not because I expect a reward at the end. Being a better person is its own reward.

Shaden

Good for you, Shaden. I wish you contentment in your search.

I find everything I need in this regard in the GR. One stop shopping. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Indeed. The toughest critic I have to answer to is the guy in the mirror. I have to live with him the rest of my life.

WAT

Is that the same guy who is in my mirror every day... he is tough! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope yours has more hair.

WAT

The article below really caught my attention the other day and I think speaks to some of the things Shaden was trying to say about 'building intimacy" with God through lamenting, sharing, crying, woundeness and so forth. This is an article in Christianity Today from an interview conducted with Christian singer Michael Card. Good reading.


The Wounded Worshiper
by Maryann B. Hunsberger
posted 06/19/06

Twenty-five years of composing music, writing books, creating Bible study material and garnering awards haven't given Michael Card immunity from sorrow. After he watched his 18-year-old nephew and two infant nieces die, Card embarked on a journey to learn how grief brings us closer to God. His new album, The Hidden Face of God, follows his book, A Sacred Sorrow. Card shared with us about why both projects are devoted to the topic of grief, about the church in America and about true worship.

You've written a book and an album about sorrow. What was your inspiration for all this lamenting?

Michael Card: My brother's oldest son died in 1999. My sister lost two infants four or five years before that. My mother lost a child before I was born. That has always been simmering on the back burner of my mind. What made me finally think about it, act on it, and write about it was 9/11. It was a wake-up call. The book, A Sacred Sorrow, came out of those experiences. The new record came out of my work on the book.

On your new album, The Hidden Face of God, the song, "How Long?" talks about God hiding his presence from us. Did you feel that way?

Card: When my nephew died, it was a long, drawn-out cancer, and I was thinking more about trying to support my brother. When my sister lost her first child, the child was blind, had an open spine and many other birth defects. The child died after two months. I could see the sense in that. When my sister lost her second child 13 months later, it really affected me. The child died at two months old of a ruptured appendix. In many ways, our family fragmented and never recovered from that. My sister and her husband divorced and my brother and his wife split up. It was devastating for our family. That was when I had the big struggle and questions. And I shook my fist at God.

Why is it so tough when God seems to be indifferent to our suffering?

Card: God has revealed himself to us as a loving God, the person who gives us everything. When something happens that is so inconsistent with that, it's a problem. When he seems to be silent, it makes it even worse. There's a great book calling Naming the Silences by Stanley Hauer was about how God uses silence when we are suffering. God is most intent on giving us himself, not giving us things. At the end of the book of Job, he doesn't get his things back. Job gets God back. It's a whole reorientation in our relationship with God to see him not as a provider who gives us things, but to see him as intent on giving himself to us.

How has this knowledge changed you?

Card: People come up to me and share about things that have happened to them. The impulse is always to try to fix things, but I don't talk at people anymore. I'm now able to enter into their pain and cry with them.

Job's friends blamed him for his suffering. Christians often tend to do the same thing to other Christians. Why is that?

Card: Other people's suffering is threatening to people because it goes against their formula where if you're good, God blesses you, and if you're bad, God punishes you. When people see others suffering, they can't understand it. They come up with easy answers because they feel threatened that it could happen to them. My sister and brother had people telling them if they just had enough faith, their children wouldn't have died.

Why is it important that Christians "weep every unwept tear," as your song "Come Lift up Your Sorrows" says?

Card: Lamenting is the truest experience of worship. In Psalm 51, David forfeited everything because of Bathsheba and realized that God didn't want his bulls and goats. He wanted his broken spirit and contrite heart. He looked at his life and realized that all he had left is what God wanted in the first place.

A friend was out on a pastoral call when a drunk driver hit his car and paralyzed him. He was lamenting when he powerfully experienced God's presence. When the immediacy of that presence started to leave, he cried out, "You don't have to heal me. Just don't leave me." He realized he needed God's presence more than God's provision.

What else does grieving accomplish?

Card: The miracle of the book of Job is that our tears move God. In chapter 1, God is on the throne in heaven. In a later chapter, he is at Job's side. Job says, "My ears have heard of you, but now my eyes see you." Tears are a bridge to God. When you look at the cross, you see that God uses suffering to save the world.

Does God welcome our lamenting?

Card: He tells us, "Be hot or cold. Whatever you do, don't be lukewarm." I think he'd rather us be angry with him than deny that he exists. When we're hurting, we have the choice of not speaking to him or of really experiencing him. Job said horrible things for which he had to apologize, but he didn't say that God doesn't exist. Jacob wrestled with the angel and said, "I will not let go." That's what my song "I Will Not Walk Away from You" is about. I may say the wrong things. I may believe the wrong things. Yet, I'm not walking away. I'm not giving up. I'm not quitting. You ultimately find that you can make those statements because he's been holding onto you the whole time.


Why, then, do some Christians think it's disrespectful to complain to God?

Card: We're taught that it is a sign of weakness, but nothing in the Bible tells us not to cry or mourn. Jesus said, "Blessed are those who mourn." He did something no other leader did—he broke down and wept in front of his people.

How does someone "worship God with their wounds," like you sing in "Come Lift up Your Sorrows"?

Card: We can't worship God without recognizing our woundedness. We have a worship revolution going on in the U.S., but we're not worshiping. There is no woundedness in it. True worship celebrates God's worth, and without experiencing woundedness, you don't know his worth. You don't have that experience of God's presence over God's provision. You experience his worth in the wilderness, not in the picnic grounds. "Amazing Grace" says, "I once was lost, but now am found." Without that acknowledgment of loss, what do you have to worship him for, unless you're just worshiping feeling good? Lament is the lost language of worship.

What do you think of today's worship music?

Card: Many people are doing good work and trying to listen to the Scriptures and to where people's needs are, but the majority of worship music is an industrial response to a trend.

The insights you give in this album are rare in Christian music. Why don't we hear more lyrics like this?

Card: When an industry, rather than a community, creates music, it will lean toward what sells best. Many people are writing great stuff, but we won't ever hear it because of the industry. The early Jesus music came out of community. John Michael Talbot says there was a holiness to Christian music back then that it doesn't tend to have now. That's not to say God can't use the Christian music industry, because he does.

An overemphasis on music, rather than lyrics, is part of it. Many songwriters are very young, too. You have to look harder to find what your heart resonates with, but you can find it. Andrew Petersen is one of the greatest writers today. Yet, nobody had ever recorded one of his songs before. "The Silence of God," which is on my record, is his. Sara Groves is a great writer. People like them need more support from the industry.

You also recorded Michael Kelley Blanchard's "To a Broken God." You normally write your own songs. Why did you use other artists' songs this time?

Card: Laments are so hard to write. When I heard Andrew's and Michael's, I knew I couldn't do better.

"How Long?" was on an earlier album of yours. Why did you rerecord it with jazz saxophonist Kirk Whalum?

Card: It's from Psalm 13, which is a primary lament, so it fit. I originally recorded it with an orchestra, but I wanted it done differently this time. Here's a typical industry thing: When I played the song for some radio people, they came back and said it would be great without the sax. The sax was the whole idea!

Why did you include the African-American spiritual, "Walk with Me, Lord"?

Card: I go to a black church and that's my pastor singing it. He was a Black Panther back in the '60s. That was his mother's favorite song, so almost every time he sings it, he cries. I played the banjo on it because slaves invented the banjo. It's the only truly American instrument.

You work with WorldServe Ministries. Tell me about your interest in the suffering church.

Card: I started with the Bible League thinking I'd take time from my busy schedule to help the persecuted church. I smuggled Bibles into places that couldn't get Bibles. Then, once I went, I realized I am a spiritual pygmy who got more than I gave. I was with a guy in China who was in prison for his faith for 22 years. That was a great dose of perspective. WorldServe recognizes the suffering church as a resource, as living examples of real Christianity. They are strong in ways where we are so weak. One of the prophets said, "You say you're strong, but you're weak, poor, pitiful and blind." That's how it is with the American church. I feel much more at home in an underground church in China, Vietnam or Cuba. They worship as one and lament together.

I feel no need or desire to build intimacy with God.

I feel a need and desire to lead a good life and be of benefit to others as they may be of benefit to me, for our common good and peacefulness. Plus good fishing, favorable winds, and cold beer.

WAT

A great article, thanks.

"Be hot or cold. Whatever you do, don't be lukewarm."

This is how I was, not only with God, but in my marriage. This was a big part of our problems pre-A. I treated my wife very well... but there was no passion, no "hot and cold". No intimacy. She grew bored and died inside... I did as well, just didn't know it.

Shaden

I respect that... just wanted to comment on the differences of opinion in what I felt a Christian was.

One problem with religion is that many feel compelled and dutybound to convince and convert others of their way... it is part of the mission... to bring others to God. I don't believe in that. It's the same advice we give in dealing with our marriage... you cannot change the other person or convince them of anything. You can be there to support and share if they are open. When someone is ready, then we are there to help.

I know you didn't ask for my opinion on religion... and didn't even expect you to respond.

Thanks for responding, anyway.

Shaden

Likewise, thanks for not trying to convert me.

If you build a better mousetrap, people will buy it. No need to advertise, word will get around.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
WAT

Shaden, a question if you have time. You said -

Acknowleging you don't do this, do you also see the irony (hypocrisy?) I do regarding those who do?

Hang with me for a minute.

I'll "estimate" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> that 100.0000000000% of evangelists consider themselves "conservative" - or anything so long as it's not "liberal."

What's the hallmark of (social) conservatism? Primarily, IMHO, it's the importance of individual responsibility. You're most responsible for taking care of yourself and solving your own problems.

What's the hallmark of (social) liberalism? The main one, IMHO, is paternalism. The opposite of individual responsibility. Liberals seem he11bent on "helping" others who, for whatever reason, they deem "need" their help. They know what's good for us, whether we seek it or not. We must be protected from ourselves.

So, is it not a contradiction that evangelists call themselves "conservative" when they just have to "help" others acquire their beliefs? - to "save" them? How much more liberal can you get?

I guess I'm just not smart enough to reconcile this behavior. Perhaps the next time my individual responsibilities are violated by someone attempting to "help" me - for whatever reason, including getting "saved" - I should simply reply, "No, I don't need help from a liberal perspective - I can take care of myself."

Whadoyathink?

WAT

I quite agree. I've never really thought about it before... and hadn't heard about evangelists being conservative or liberal... but looking at my experiences with evangelists, you are probably correct. They might base their need to convert on fundamental, conservative thinking. (Is that the "walk softly but carry a big stick" idea?)

My church experience, The Salvation Army, had its share of evangelists like this... but it's mission was to give aid in practical ways to people... food and shelter, aid with addictions, love and support, etc... The "evangelism" came later if those being helped wanted to know more about why the Salvation Army was helping. The answer at that point can be about religion. Even then, I wouldn't press it but be ready to talk more if the person is ready for it.

I guess you could look at the mission of the S.A. in two different ways. 1) is the practical help a manipulation to get to religion conversion? or 2) is the practical help a demonstration of the love of God... and conversion is a secondary objective?

Going back to the "conservative" evangelists. I am not going to say they are wrong. They believe they have been commanded to tell everyone, and anyone that does not convert will go to He!!. My way of thinking is that a person needs to be ready for this change in their lives... they need to long for it and want it otherwise it won't be real. Part of the Christian goal, IMO, is to live life how Jesus would have so others notice and want to know why. NOt to club their beliefs over the heads of non-believers.

Like I said, I grew up in the church, even was a "leader" in the church for years, and led a fairly moral life up to now... but I don't know if I would consider myself a true Christian... or atleast I was on pause in "Christian infancy" my whole life until this past year.

I guess you can tell me "you don't need help..." but to be truthful, I was being selfish and trying to help myself in my own beliefs more than I was helping you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Shaden