Silverpool has helped many people here and is now in need of support herself. Please read this thread over on In Recovery:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=0&fpart=44

I have been reading and posting on MB for a long time but did not make much progress until I happened on that same thread about P/A (Passive/Aggressive) behaviour.

I think that ALL affairs involve a good deal of P/A behaviour and tactics on the part of the wayward, even if they are not normally P/A. (If they are, it's even worse.)

But in any case, I think any BS who is dealing with an affair and getting nowhere would benefit greatly from understanding the dynamics of P/A behaviour.

If your WS is also P/A and you do not understand this, you will go CRAZY trying to deal with them and will wonder why MB principles do not seem to be working for you where they have worked for so many others.

The Harleys seem to classify P/A behaviour as a form of abuse, which would explain why MB principles don't help much in those cases. In the book *Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders*, the "Freeloader" is the perfect definition of P/A behaviour.

I would urge everyone to check this thread, especially if you are a BS who has been struggling for a long time and feel that you're getting nowhere. And please offer some support to Silverpool while you're there.
Mulan

Bump.

Personally, I think most of the talk about "Passive/Agressive" is just male-bashing bunk.

There!

I said it.

If I guy is doing nothing wrong, then you can always accuse him of being "Passive/Agressive".

-AD

AD,

I have P/A behaviors and I'm a woman...Hurtingless has a wife with extreme P/A behaviors...

no male bashing...labeling...we all have some...saying "yes" when we didn't want to, agreeing to avoid conflict when we really disagree (sabotaging POJA)...and then doing something else instead...choosing this passive response knowingly creates resentment...and these behaviors go from minor to major...including someone telling you that they want you to kill yourself right now...or having an affair.

Passive...the lying, pretending you're not betraying your marriage and your spouse...the aggressive is having the A directly attacks your marriage and your spouse.

When you read up on it, all over the net, there are different behaviors...passive, passive-aggressive, aggressive and assertive. Getting to assertive is a real part of recovery...personal and marital.

LA

I think there needs to be care, though, in implying that this is part of the MB theory when it is not.

There is danger in implying that Passive-Aggressiveness is the cause for As...it may certainly be a characteristic of those who have As..but according to the MB theory..the keys are the ADDICTION to the OP and UNMET ENs...regardless of the personality type/style or disorder of the BS or the WS...

still think it's bunk, even if wimmin do it too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You can read about the power of crystals all over the net too.

What I mean, is that there may be something that mental health professional call "passive/agressive", and there may even be something to it, but for every real instance of it, there are 10 or 20 accusations of it - mostly against people who haven't done anything to anybody.

-AD

OH, AD!!!

LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HI Mimi! <AD waves>

I was afraid you'd be steamed at me for saying that. I'm glad you're laughing.

-AD

You're one of my Buds, AD!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AD, I invite you to read the thread in question. One of the worst offending WSs is a woman, and I think you will see that being P/A is FAR more than "doing nothing."
Mulan

Really?!?!

... and now I'm probably not one of Mulan's - who made a serious request for aid on another thread.

-AD

Silver is in a deep state of despair. She is truely suffering and I am afraid for her as she has expressed the pain is so deep that she feels like killing herself.

Please offer her some support if you are able to. If you are not able to, please don't use this thread to create a debate over wether PA exists. She is very fragile right now.

Thank you.

AD & Mimi...

Try to get past the label...the statement is...when you are having an affair and hiding it from your spouse...you are acting passively...as if you're in the marriage, in agreement with...and aggressively attacking it at the same time.

Calling it what it is to me is helpful. It isn't bunk or a cause of an A...I'm saying that actual choice is P/A...and Mimi's right...lots of fantasy, self-deception and entitlement going on, which the drug soothes, distracts from, doesn't cure at all...and the permission to act passive when you're being aggressive is KEY, I believe, to the fog...permissions for these behaviors exist and are used long before an A is present.

I'm here to understand infidelity--myriad parts and pieces...by discounting before knowing, AD, that would be DJ, wouldn't it?

How helpful is that to you? I respect your choice. You're an informed guy. I've posted to you before...followed your whole journey...I don't think you're bunk. And I don't know a science guy who discounts before he considers and comes out with a belief worth believing when doing so.

I don't see it addressed anywhere as P/A behavior...I do see many love busters are like that...agreeing when you disagree...blocking intimacy...lying...so I don't know about what the Harley's believe, as clearly as they state about CoDependency.

What I do know is that Mimi's post on that thread was important...and appreciated. I did not permit myself to say that and Mimi did. She ROCKS.

AD ROCKS...in a wholly geologic way, too.

LA

I believe in PA behavior.

and sometimes my H and I are passive-aggresseive..

However, during his A, he was mostly AGGRESSIVE...and highly ADDICTED to the OW as stated by Dr. Bill...

I started to post to Silver...but did not...

Is it me or what?

I feel manipulated when people threaten suicide on a forum when it is clear that we really can't help..other than to encourage that person to get some REAL HELP.

I consider that to be passive-aggressive and manipulative..for me to get caught in trying to save someone's life in a forum...

LA,

I've read about it. I stick to my opinion.

Please understand what I'm saying : Putting a label on something does not change reality. If you label a person "P/A", you have said only that they are "broken" or "bad" or whatever, and that it is not your fault. What does that help? You might as well say they are posessed. Still, the problem remains.

Further, it is my observation that people often take terminology from the sciences, whether the social sciences or the hard sciences, and apply it without a clear understanding of the terms - and, again this is my personal opinion, this is often done in order to gain a position of presumed superiority in some disagreement. Even if the "diagnosis" is correct, nothing is changed. The problem is still there - but the person suffering the effects of it has now expended their energy in trying to get everyone else to agree that the other person is broken, defective, sick whatever, and not in figuring out the choices they should make in the areas over which they have control.

This is a recipe for frustration.

That's where I'm coming from.

-AD

I posted to the thread (though it was started by another poster). Her last post was 12 hours ago.

-AD

AD,

I am not labeling a person...but a behavior. There's the difference we're missing, I think. Guess you aren't familiar with my belief about broken, bad or defective.

P/A behaviors are choices, cannot absolve anyone of anything. That's the point. Owning what we choose helps everything.

I am not saying what you're hearing, AD.

And I don't believe I heard what you said. I heard you say labeling behaviors as passive, aggressive or assertive (or in combination) benefits no one. Doesn't exist. And that calling men P/A is bunk.

I believe in calling anyone P/A is bunk. I believe in recognizing and calling people on their P/A behaviors necessary.

I don't diagnos people...I am learning to discern behaviors without DJs.

I believe very much the same thing you do...that running with a little information is a dangerous thing...though I don't believe in assuming it is to gain superiority in some disagreement. I don't know why they run with it...but I keep in mind they may very well be running away from something else.

Nothing is changed...only people change themselves. My DH knows his P/A behaviors...and chooses not to do them. I know my own, and choose not to do them. I have to stay alert and conscious...I still believe they are so under my own radar that I need them pointed out, even as I learn more about myself, why I choose to act or react...and these "labels" help me understand my behaviors, their effects, in my personal and marital recovery.

But then, I don't do blame...not in our marriage...it was removed.

Maybe that's where we differ.

LA

Mimi (and I consistently have this compulsion to add "Dahling" to your name each time I type it),

What you did post was what I wanted to say and do not feel my place to say it. I appreciated very much you doing that...

"I started to post to Silver...but did not...

Is it me or what?

I feel manipulated when people threaten suicide on a forum when it is clear that we really can't help..other than to encourage that person to get some REAL HELP.

I consider that to be passive-aggressive and manipulative..for me to get caught in trying to save someone's life in a forum..."

I am with you on this...and given SP's history with me on that thread, I will not post about it. I will not say what is my truth. My choice. I believe that's okay. I know you and I will pray hard and long, though...

Your honesty is brave and speaks to me...I felt a twinge of cowardice, of not being true...so thank you for being who you are, Mimi.

Deeply grateful,

LA

LA,

Thanks for your reply.

Let me state it a different way then. If you say (to your spouse), "The thing you just didn't do was Passive Agressive" or "Your behaviour this afternoon was P/A", what do you expect the result will be.

You could then spend 3 hours with DSM4, dictionaries of psychology, looking things up on the internet, consulting with your friend who took 3 classes in psychology... whatever. But, the actual issue is then not addressed.

If instead, you said "I was hurt when you ignored me and talked for 2 hours to your friend", then you could avoid the debate about whether his/her behaviour was or was not P/A.

It really doesn't matter how you label the person or how you label the behaviour. The point is - that it hurt you.

One might even say that it is P/A to label another's behaviour as P/A.

-AD

LOL. I missed this earlier. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-AD