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Folks KiwiJ (Jen) started a thread a few days ago Jen’s Thread and this thread has been rattling around in my brain for a few days. She simply stated that the WS doesn’t just withhold information to protect themselves but also to avoid “twisting the knife” with respect to the BS. In short not to hurt them further. What has followed as been 9-10 pages of interesting discussion about the need for open, radical honesty, which Jen never denied was needed. How selfish and self-protecting the WS is/was, the need for the BS to hear all of the details. And on and on. It crossed my mind that this thread also represents WHY the tenor on this board has seemed so harsh and judgmental. You never expected to be blamed of the tenor on the board did you Jen?  To refresh your memory Jen started this tread with the following statement. There is one thing that most FWS's say on MB and that is telling details and telling the "real" truth feels like a very hurtful thing to do.
It is always taken by the members of MB and probably the BS as a means of self preservation or unwillingness to face consequences.
Please believe me when I say that to stand in front of someone who looks like their whole world has suddenly collapsed and then to twist the knife further is a horrible thing to do to someone.
From reading here, I've learned that twisting the knife is what BS's want. They ache for every detail.
We're human you know, we know we've caused suffering. Most of us DO love the person we've hurt most in the world and it really is a very difficult thing to do.
Please don't take it as "our" self preservation. It's a natural human reaction to seeing someone (especially someone we care about) in pain.
I'm sure there are some WS's who enjoy twisting the knife. I've read things here that have made my hair curl, like a BS's wife telling him he "was too small" and other horrific foggy things that WS's have said.
--------------------
Jen I kept wondering what she was really trying to get at here and then it occurred to me that people have forgotten a few things. First, they have forgotten why Harley’s approach is so successful, although surely not 100%. He noted a few things: 1. Affairs often end in 6 months, few make it past 2 years. 2. The BS has some things they can do to save the marriage and one of them is take their time in making the decision to end the marriage. Associated with those two points and many others that Harley makes is the fact that only 3% of affair based marriages survive. And the term “survive” is far different from “thrive”. So why is Harley successful, because beneath all of the pain, the affairs, other issues, he knows something that is forgotten a lot on this site and frankly I have to remind myself of continually. The WS often still has love in their heart for the BS. YUP FOLKS THIS IS TRUE. It is really the basis for Harley’s approach. Now you cannot prove it by the WS’s actions during the affairs or shortly after, but the reason he cautions to wait until the affair is over is really straight forward, if the BS still loves the WS, the WS’s love for the BS can be found, nurtured, rekindled and the marriage REBUILT. I will use Jen (KiwiJ) as an example. She wanted to divorce her H, and have OM leave his W and they would get married. The ONLY fly in the ointment was that OM did not want to divorce his W. Otherwise, KiwiJ was set to go. I recall when she came here she wanted to leave and be with OM in the worst way. But, that did not happen. Now you would conclude from her stated goal that she did NOT love her H. He probably would conclude the same thing. And yet when H found out and confronted her, they began to work on their marriage and lo and behold even with OM rematerializing for a brief period she does LOVE her husband. Huh? You ask. The point is/was she was not running FROM her H, she was running TOWARD an illusion. She was going to be a teenager again. She was not going to have to deal with real live, such as her H’s depression over the loss of his parent. She was going to be 18 having fun on the beaches of Kiwi Land <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and the figure would be back, the “love of her life” would be their and it would be summer(winter) in NZ vacation all over again. But, she still had love for her H and when the dream went belly up, there he was still loving her. Folks, what I think what the BS’s miss is that although their spouse has had an affair, or is simply not paying attention to them, the ASSUMPTION that there is no love is a DJ, and often wrong. That is why WS’s don’t file for divorce. Yes, they want their cake and eat it too, but there is more. It is forgotten. WS’s often make the DJ of assuming because she is paying all of her attention to the kids, her work, her friends, whatever, that they are not loved, hence seeking their needs met elsewhere. The stories are all very similar, “he works too much and has no time for me”, she is “too focused on… and has not time for me”. SF is terrible, Yada, Yada, Yada. It is why Harley focuses on NEEDS and not love. He knows that implicitly below all of the debris and trash of life often the love is still there, it just needs to be brought out. What I have been seeing on this board lately I believe is a manifestation of the fact that many (especially newer posters) have not stopped to realize that the ONLY reason that Harley’s approach works is because both the WS AND the BS want it to work. Because deep down there is still love. The posters lately have not stopped to factor in that both the BS and the WS are in the middle of things they often cannot see that in their spouse. It is our job to bring it out. I have been commended a few times because I seem to be able to “get to” WSs and primarily female. It may be true that is something I have a talent for, I don’t know. I do know that the first thing I have to decide before posting is there a chance that they actually have some love for their spouse. Most of the time they do or they would NOT come here. So I proceed as if they do, and that the ONLY problem is one of perception. I have found that as perspective changes people begin to see what they NEED to see. It is also the reason many of us post to BS posters here saying “give it time, have patience, you can do this, go to Plan A, go to plan B, etc.” We KNOW that in many cases with time and patience the WS will begin to see that they do have love for the BS, although the BS cannot see it. We know that most affairs end, and most affairs are NOT started to end the marriage. The trick is to get the BS to give it enough time to allow perspectives to change and to actively change a few perspectives (plan A). I could go on, but let me get to the point. People seem to think that WSs and BSs are different, but on a fundamental level they are the same. They are people that want to love and be loved by their spouse and often for reasons (some of which are nothing more than DJ’s on both of their parts) they have become enmeshed in a MESS. I think perhaps KiwiJ was trying to say this. I am not sure hence a separate thread, but I think this. I think people on here are forgetting that this site is to bring the WS and the BS back together in marriage. It is to bring the discouraged spouse back together with the negligent one. It is to promote a change in perspective so that marriages can thrive. We need to remember what Harley KNOWS. Marriages can be saved because there often remains love for each other although cluttered with the debris of day to day life. We need to treat the posters here with that FACT in mind. So let’s consider when talking about divulging “details” to someone you have hurt and love, we will meet resistance. The source of this resistance is not just “self preservation”, although that is big, it can also be love (not wanting to “turn the knife”), AND it can be fear of abuse (we need to always caution to divulge details in the presence of a third party if that fear is realistic). Further, it is our job to caution the BS to seek the information they NEED. I have posted to hundreds of BS about this and the first thing I say is to write down what you want to know, why you want to know, and how will this information help YOU. Then sit on it for a few days and then reevaluate. You cannot undo the answer to be ready for it IF you really need. Folks what is called for is a recognition there is love still there or they would not be here. What is called for is that BOTH the BS and the WS are often operating under false assumptions, DJ’s. What is called for is that there are many ways to get to the goals at hand, but they do require that eventually what we say makes sense to those we are saying it to. Just some thoughts, but I do hope that they will lead to people posting here to “lighten” up and see that “no pancake is so flat that it doesn’t have two sides.” God Bless, JL
Last edited by Just Learning; 08/05/06 04:58 PM.
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Oohh JL, I love this thread. Gets right to the heart of it all. U sure u r not Steve posting as the great professor? LOL!!! I know u r not. Just kidding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for the post. I certainly hope it helps clarify matters for some so they can avoid some of the false recoveries that seem t/b rampant about now.
Mahalo,
L.
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WONDERFUL THREAD, JL.
I have always realized what you posted, but in a kind of subliminal way. My advice is usually to do Plan A, stick it out, give it some time.
It is surprising (just like magic) how many times it works. I've talked to folks on the divorce board whose spouse was out of the marriage, and not even communicating, who endured, and ended up with a good marriage. It's amazing.
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Alleluia!...Right on the money!
It is soooo difficult to make some here understand that underneath it all...we still love our BS. That there is still foundation to "build" on ..and once the "illusion" is gone, or...once we begin to see the "illusion" for what it is...we (the WS) slowly..find our way back, and begin to build.
Thanks ladies! And thanks to the BS who love enough to endure!
FWW- Me (44)
BH (47)
married 23 years
EA/PA 02/05 - 07/06
in REAL recovery since 8/06
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I tell you what - fantastic.
I am one of those about to give up hope, who can't understand why they're putting themselves through this s**t against a wave of "JUST MOVE ON" AAAAAGGGHHH!
I've often said that my love for WW is not something I can just turn off lke a tap - just coz she says she doesn't want to work on it doesn't mean that I cannot.
Problem is - as long as I want it alive she does not. I have to "pretend?" that I don't want it to find that hidden / buried love she has. I believe that is the dilemma most of us have on here.
Plan A is to make them see what they're gonna miss, Plan B is to make them miss it.
I think the mechanics are relatively simple, the emotions are horrendous.
CG
"Welcome to Dumpsville. Population: You"
- Homer Simpson
D Day 22/03/06
Divorced 17/02/07
Kids 2 x Girls 10 + 14
Me 40
XWS 40
Married 18 years
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Fantastic post, JL... can we change your name to "Ready to Teach"?
Can I add, IMO, that part of the difficulty and length in recovering is not how the WS (FWS) feels about the BS and vice versa, but how the WS feels about themselves. They see what they have done and the hurt they have caused... and they just cannot believe their spouse will truly forgive them and love them. Even when the BS says it, they are still waiting for their world to come crashing down and for the BS to show the hate that they feel for themselves. This might cause mistrust as they don't want to cause more hurt but neither do they want to be hurt (My FWW felt that my need to know was really a way to hurt her in response).... the cycle of mistrust begins and recovery slows down or ends.
We all just want to be genuinely loved.
Shaden
BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.
Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
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JL, you wonderful, wonderful man. Yes, yes, yes. It is all just as you say. I mainly started the thread because I kept seeing the response by BS's to FWS's of "no, you are selfish, that is the only reason you withhold information." I knew, for me personally, that wasn't true. Do you know what brought me to MB? The A was over and I was desperate, just desparate, to save my M and rekindle the love I always knew was there for my H. It was reading one of the letters from an OW on the main site and then reading Steve Harley's response. At the end of the reply was a sentence. It was "follow all these plans and I guarantee you will fall in love with your spouse all over again." It was the first light in the darkness. It was the ONLY light in the darkness. It was what I wanted to happen more than anything in the world. JL, I had to blush when I read your summary of what I expected from "riding off into the sunset." You have it SO right. Now I'm just going to check all my windows cos I'm sure you peer into them and know just what's going on in my mind and my life. j/k <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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What a timely, wise and compassionate post, JL. Thank you.
I'd like to add that the Harley approach offered me something very important during the worst of the turmoil - a reassurance that I wasn't crazy to hold out for the marriage, and that I wasn't holding out for that marriage because I was scared and pathetic. So many of my friends and family urged me to an instant and punitive dismissal of both H and marriage; it was often hard to maintain my determination in the face of their 'get yourself a lawyer!" advice.
The Harley method agreed with what I instinctively sensed - that H loved me and would work at recovery if offered time and space. Even at that, I was on the verge of giving in many times - it was Harley and this board who kept me going. Our children would be very grateful to the good doctor, if they knew how much they owed to him!
TA
"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
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Great post, JL, and I agree very much. I have never doubted that Jen believes in radical honesty or that she loves Rob. I always knew she wanted to do the right thing, but was stuck up on top of a TELEPHONE POLE paralyzed by fear. [this literally happened to me once on an adventure trip] Everytime I saw her before the exposure I envisioned her as PARALYZED. But I never doubted she loved Rob, so I hope no one thinks that.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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TA, I'm going to t/j JL's thread a bit here. (Well, I'm mentioned in it so I guess I can).
You said to me once that my charm was a double edged sword. That remark made me really think how I use charm to manipulate people but also that I AM a genuinely friendly person with a warm personality.
I just wanted to thank you because it made me think very carefully about how I use charm to get my own way and I've been watching myself very carefully and making sure I only use it for "good" if you know what I mean. It was one of many things you and others said that really hit home in a "good" way and has helped make me a better person (I hope).
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JL, Good subject. I had saved this response someone puut on here a few years ago. It speaks to this well. "To Whomever,
"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Very, very true JL. I never stopped loving my H during my A. All I ever wanted was a loving R with him but I handled things completely wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I think one of the reasons I had a hard time giving up on my FWH was I KNEW I loved him during my A, so he probably loved me during his.
Faith
me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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This post is almost spiritual. I was losing hope but this just takes me to the next level.
Mortarman that letter is awesome - I will be "borrowing" it for my current plight.
CG
"Welcome to Dumpsville. Population: You"
- Homer Simpson
D Day 22/03/06
Divorced 17/02/07
Kids 2 x Girls 10 + 14
Me 40
XWS 40
Married 18 years
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OK - So given this is the TRUTH.
The underlying piece of all of our pain.
How? And why?
do we even get passed it?
If I'm a beautiful 31 y.o. with so much ahead of me, so much more than dealing with a WH who'd rather hide the truth than deal with it....
Why?
(Just to be said I do buy into WH still loves me.)
if he's an emotionally stubborn man whose own Disneyland Dad (aka the Devil) romanced him into thinking the wknd. gig was better than the day to day and continues to persuade him that most marriages end in divorce so he's "normal"
Then how do I wake to a morning where I have to find terms to explain to our 1 and 2 y.o. that daddy still loves mom but he can't make up for his mistake???
me BW - 32
WH- 32
Married 6/01
EA 10/01 turn PA 2/02 (denied for 4 years)
ONS 5/02
DD 10/03
DD #2 3/05
D-Day Jan 06
EA #2 1/06
turned PA 5/06 ???
WH moved out 7/06
WH moved in w/OW 10/06
Divorce date 1/07
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And more immediately How?
me BW - 32
WH- 32
Married 6/01
EA 10/01 turn PA 2/02 (denied for 4 years)
ONS 5/02
DD 10/03
DD #2 3/05
D-Day Jan 06
EA #2 1/06
turned PA 5/06 ???
WH moved out 7/06
WH moved in w/OW 10/06
Divorce date 1/07
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thank you JL...
well stated...and filled with grace as you often are...
I too worry about the BS impatience with talking about it ALL right NOW....
our brains can't process...
our brains can't hear it all
our impatience
our fragile need to be heard rather that listen...
it all makes it so much harder....
our driven desire to make it all better right now..
instant
like our oatmeal and popcorn...
be still
seek compassion
understand our brains desire to preserve, and defend as first reactions...
well spoken JL...
rebuilding through these waters is a treacherous dance of humility, love and compassion....
ARK
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Great post, JL.
When I went to a lawyer early in a separation, that lawyer told me she didn't think I was ready for a DV. She said I didn't need to rush to file...I could leave it to him to file should he be so inclined. He didn't. It took a long time for my H to finally get it.
Too many people come here expecting it to be all over very quickly. Either fixed or they think it is over, they give up. Too many people give up on marriages that could be saved if they had some patience. It took great patience in my case and it took much longer than 'average'.
I am glad we put it all back together and didn't get a divorce.
I was glad when my H finally learned about Radical Honesty and could see the wisdom in telling me his whole truth. I sure didn't think his withholding the details and truths was because he still had some love left for me...but I can see that it was possibly so.
Married 1976
Me:BS
Him:FWS
MB Weekend March 2003
2 S's: '77 & '80, 1 D: '82
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i hope and pray all of you are right....that my H still loves me...
it's beginning to feel like the affair will never end though
and i will never have the opportunity to find out
i'm wondering trix...how long did it take in your situation (you said much longer than average)
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Harley is certainly a whole lot smarter than I ...
my personal recent/current struggle is ... the horrific nonsensical destruction of perfectly wonderful human beings such as HurtInOkla ... among many others
I just wonder how reading this might effect her
she never stopped loving her WH
she still loves him after he's divorced her
she's lost her family
and I am somehow just not seeing that he loves her
and I worry
about how someone in her position
precarious
still bleeding from her wounds
will feel somehow less lovely because her WH did not love her in the way that Kiwi's H loved his WW
JL ... I am having a really difficult time trying to reconcile your words with HurtInOkla's reality
any thoughts/suggestions?
Pep
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Pep, unfortunately, the WS's who don't find themselves here will never know how much they can do. It worries me, it's always worried me. There will always be those WS's who think they're right and they will follow their path. Their path will lead to destruction, nothing surer. My heart breaks for the people who's WS's leave them. Rest assured, whoever you are, they will not find happiness.
When I started my other thread I meant the FWS's who find themselves here. The REAL FWS's.
I feel the same way you do. What about those who will never recover? Some WS's will never see the light.
Pep, KiwiJ's H loves her unconditionally and has never stopped. It's an awe inspiring thing. But, KiwiJ also loved her H and never stopped. During the A I never did say "I love you" to the OM. I just couldn't do it. To say that would have meant I loved him more than my H and I knew (I always knew) it wasn't true.
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