I'm not sure if I should be posting here or in Divorcing/Divorced . . .

Some brief background --

-married 18+ years to a woman I desperately love
-2 beautiful teenage daughters
-wife has had three affairs (2 physical / 1 emotional)
-I was not aware of Marriage Builders so never a Plan A / B
-I've gone to counseling, but wife has no desire to go
-Guiding principal through our "recoveries" has been to minimize impact to our daughters
-I've really got no one to talk with since one affair involved a friend of mine and our church (which we have since left)

The problem:
-Recently confronted my wife about email and contact with two of the men from her affairs (she had previously agreed to no contact and to tell me if they contacted her)
-Her most recent physical affair was contacting her to try and renew the relationship; she says she was ignoring him and hates him; all evidence supports her side of the story that he was pursuing her and she was ignoring him
-Other man is a "very good friend" with which she does not recognize an emotional affair (despite sending email ending in "Miss and Love You" and establishing secret email accounts to talk with him)
-Her immediate reaction (when I confronted her about the communication) was to proclaim that she hated me and wanted a divorce (this has always been her immediate response when I've confronted her about her behavior)
-I asked her to calm down and think of the children
-She later said she still loves me and wants to work on the marriage

My Position:
-I still love my wife (albeit I'm not sure how to trust her again)
-I want to go to counseling and she has (reluctantly) agreed
-I have a list of specific things she needs to do to prove that our marriage is really important to her and not just a way to pay the bills and am afraid of her reaction
-When she told me she wanted a divorce, she threatened to leave town and move in with her family
-I want her to stay with our two daughters (I would move to an apartment less than five minutes away) until they graduate high school
-I would still pay mortgage on our house and pay as many bills/etc as possible to maintain their activities and comfort level

My Question(s):
-Is it important for us to agree on the nature of her relationship with her "very good friend"?
-What's realistic for me to require in terms of "terminating" her relationships with these men? I feel I need to be a party to the verbal phone conversation -- she wants to do it by email.
-How do I retain any hope?

Thanks for your time in just reading this. I don't really have anyone to discuss this with and just writing it down is therapeutic.

"I want her to stay with our two daughters (I would move to an apartment less than five minutes away) until they graduate high school."

Artor... NOOOO!!! Don't do this! YOU be the shining example to your children... stay in the house. If your W continues her adulterous behavior, SHE moves out. Teach your children what true love really is. Teach them what family means.

To answer your questions:

NO... there is no agreeing to the nature of her relationship with her "friend." You need to set a boundary that this is unacceptable and there are only two partners in a marriage... you and her.

The relationships should be terminated by No Contact letters that you should mutually write together.

Have you read SAA? Are you familiar with Harley's concepts?

Your W is distracting you by placing the focus on your children and away from her and her sick behaviors. You need to start thinking of your daughters in a HEALTHY way, by teaching them that their mother's behavior is not acceptable.

Hopefully others will be around to help you shortly... hang in there! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Artor, welcome to MB. First get very familiar with the site concepts. You can click on the link in my sig line for some helpful information. Next as Katie Mae said, get Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley. I would also recommend the book "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

Keep posting and reading. You may also want to consider counseling with the Harley's by phone. Their number is at the top of the page.

Welcome, Artor.

You are getting very good adivce up there. Do Not move out. Do not even offer.

When the letters to all of the affair partners have been writen, a new email acocunt should be set up- one that you both monitor. My counselor suggested this as my FWS's A started with email contact.

All of the old accounts should be closed.

You should install a key logger to insure that no secret accounts are set up.

Are any of the affair partners from her work? If so, she will need to start job hunting. It would be best if she made a total break and quit the job asap.

Recovery does not start until there is no contact

Keep reading here and read Surviving an Affair. Keep posting

Artor - ditto Katie on the moving out question.

That would be the very worst thing for you to do.

Yes, it's important, but don't kid yourself that you can do this as a first step. Forget it for now. You can/should express your feelings about it though. "I feel..." or "I think you've got yer head up yer butt." Not, "You've got yer head up yer butt." OK, maybe not the head and butt part, but see the difference?


No verbals. Assuming for the minute that she's sincere about doing this, the recommended way is a No Contact letter she writes and you approve and send.

Why do you think she's sincere? Be aware that many WSs attempt to play along to placate the BS, all the while having no intention of giving up their fix.

Got a copy of Surviving An Affair yet?

What have you fixed in your Plan A?

What do your daughters know of her affairs?

Over how long a period have these affairs occurred? Why do you think there have been only two?

Thank you for the reply -- I appreciate your insight.

I guess I was leaning toward her staying with our girls because otherwise she'd probably move out of state. I don't want our daughters to live without their mom at this critical time in their lives (my eldest just started dating a year ago and my youngest has yet to start).

I will still be close and fully involved in their lives.

I understand your point and it has given me something to think about. I hadn't thought about taking a strong stand against the behaviour in an effort to demonstrate the unacceptable nature of infidelity in any form. Thank you.

I know she will never fully agree with labeling her "special friendship" as an emotional affair. In fact, just bringing up the label may push her over the edge.

I guess where I am right now, I'm ready for it and able to accept the idea that our marriage may be over. The previous times I was unwilling to accept the end of it. I am still dedicated to fighting for our marriage, but have lost much of my zeal given the repeated nature of the problem.

I will re-read the "No Contact" letter section again. I had wanted it to happen over the phone for real-time feedback on ensuring the message was received, but that might not be a good idea. What do you think about my (alone) following up with a phone call to ensure the message was received?

I'm working through the information on this site and revisiting much of the reading I did during the first two affairs.

Frankly, I'm losing hope and the vision I once had for a truly reconciled marriage. I don't know how to trust her anymore.

Thanks for the advice.

I have demanded the old accounts be closed. As a tip to others, since they were secret email accounts, she made up most of the information regarding birthday, name, zip code, etc. So I overloaded the incorrect password security trigger so it requires her to re-enter the information she made up and can't remember. This way, I locked the account.

I can do the joint email account and keylogger, but the problem is she will always have a work computer and voice mail to which I won't necessarily have access. I can't make her install a keylogger on her company's computer. I can get her voice mail password, but that's no guarantee she won't set up another one.

One of her partners was a MOM with which she worked. He lives out of state and (according to her) now works on another program and won't be seeing her. I have a hard time believing that and can't really confirm it.

One of my "needs" is for her to quit her job or move to a non-travel status. This may end it for her and motivate her to file for divorce. I guess that alone will say that our marriage is not the most important thing to her and that I'm just not worth the effort.

Thanks for the support.

Artor, let me ask you something. Is your WW's behavior the example you want your daughter's to follow as the begin to date? Is this the kind of mate you hope for them? I didn't think so. YOU need to be that lighthouse for your girls and your WW. Your behavior needs to be the shining example of how a man treats his W. Girls need a strong man in their lives. They need to look up to their dads. At this point in their lives YOU are an important role model..good or bad. So which one are you choosing?

Thanks for the reply.


I'm hearing that and am reconsidering strategies.


I'll think about that. I guess my problem is that despite declarations of No Contact in her first phyical affair and mediation by a paster with the OM, he still repeatedly contacted her until met with him and laid it out for him. Despite having to deal with his wife and family, the OM from the second affair keeps attempting contact. I want it to be direct and unambiguous. I'll re-read the No Contact letter concept.



I believe it is in my (alarmingly) large library on the subject. I'll check and get if it's not.



I didn't have "Plan A / B" knowledge during the first two affairs, but I did the logical things to try and address her "issues" with me. I started spending more time with her instead of working. I became more vocal of my love for her and complimenting her beauty and abilities. I lost weight and improved how I dressed. The trouble is that she is never clear about what the problems were. I have been left to guess about my inadequacies and failures and have tried a shotgun approach to improving our marriage. I keep asking for details but get vague hand-wavings.


Absolutely nothing, as far as we both know. We have told them nothing. Sure, they know mom and dad argue, but I was advised during my counseling after the first affair to protect the children from this knowledge. They were in elementary school at the time and I supported that. Now that they are teenagers (almost graduated), I think they could handle the truth better. I'm still heartbroken over the thought of telling them the truth.



The "special friendship" (emotional affair) has existed for over 15 years. I call it an emotional affair because I have no proof it was anything else. It started at the place where she worked and continued with secret phone calls and emails that I would only find out about occasionally. It was during the recovery from the first physical affair that I found they were talking about traveling to see each other. She has since told him (via secret email) how much she misses him and thinks about him and signed an email "M&LU" which I can only interpret as "Miss and Love You" -- she didn't deny this when confronted.

The first confirmed physical affair ended about five years ago after I disclosed it and had existed a couple of years. The most recent was last fall into February of 2006 when I disclosed it.

I guess it's wishful thinking to believe there have been only two physical affairs. My gut tells me the emotional affair had a physical element when they worked together, but I don't have proof.

I guess it's hard enough to admit to yourself that the woman you pledged your life to and love more than anyone else would find not one, not two but three other men that are better than you. The thought of more makes me die.

Absolutely not! So far, my eldest daughter has made good choices and shown surprising maturity in spurning the advances of a boy she liked but was spreading rumors about her. I'm proud of her.

I want them to find a husband that loves them without reservation and would never do to them what has happened in their parents' marriage. God help the young man who cheats on my daughter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

However, I had reasoned that taking a strong stance against my wife's behaviour while still trying to save the marriage would be a good example. I had hoped that even in divorce I could model love for my children by sacrificing for them financially and trying to perturb their lives as little as possible.

I want to spread as little hurt to them as possible. If my wife leaves and moves out of state, I can't afford all the activities in which they currently participate. Making them quit cheerleading or dance because I can't find a way to make their mom love me doesn't seem fair.

Artor, check your state laws. Many states do not allow parents to take their children out of state or hundreds of miles away from the other parent. If your state has legal seperation you may need to consider this to gain temporary custody of your girls.

Artor,
Dr Harley recommneds telling the children. He says this makes them more aware of the situation in their own relationships later.

Have you read Plan A?

Reading this, I think exposure might really help you here. By exposing to other people you will have to let your children know.

Exposure needs to be done at work to her superiors. Quitting her job seems to be a very important part of this. Have all of her Affairs started at work?

I would suggest you call the Radio show or make an appoiintment with Steve Harley.

I hope the best for you.

I'm sorry, for I wasn't as clear as I intended to be. She was planning on moving out of state by herself (without us).

She has threatened to abandon not only me but her children. When I confronted her about the email and her continued contact, she said (paraphrase), "I'm leaving. I'll move to another state. I can't stay here. I hate you."

When I urged her to think about her children, she said, "They're old enough now. You take them."

I am still floored by this, but recognize it as "fog". She loves her girls (as do I) and it was the thought of them that played a key part in turning her thoughts around. Of course, it may be she's staying with me only for them and will leave me as soon as the youngest graduates. But that's my fear to deal with.

I have yet to follow up on custody laws, but think that since the girls are 17 and 16, they'll be able to make up their own minds.

I guess I've known that this time we would end up telling the children.

I can't count the tears I've shed over the shattering of this part of their innocence.

I also believe the other men's wives need to know, but this is a huge point of contention between my wife and me. But given the nature of the email being sent, I feel they should know to help motivate their husbands to stay the *#&^ away from my wife.

Man oh man oh man.

Got an attorney?

A good case can be made to take her up on her offer.

Start the process and put pressure on her to make good on her threat.

Two things may happen:

1. She backs down recognizing (maybe) how stoooopid her threat was. Then, you may get an opening for the alternative - work on the marriage, or

2. She actually leaves. Excellent one step backwards to take two steps forward. As soon as she leaves, Plan B. This assumes you actually get full custody. (But the age of your daughters almost obviates any custody issues.)

Can you play hardball? She thinks she can.

This is war, man. Ya gotta come ready to play.

WAT

Artor, this is a no brainer.

You decide there is no alternative. OF COURSE your wife thinks this is a bid deal. Guess why?

Don't tell her you're going to do your civic duty. Just do it. Today. This is more important than telling your daughters.

Read the Affair Exposure 101 link in my sig line below.

Thanks for the pep talk -- I need it.

It's surprising how I have changed in my approach to her infidelity. The first time, I was a wreck, wondering what I had done wrong. Wondering why the lies. The second time, I actually was sitting on the OM's doorstep waiting for him to come home so I could change him from the Other Man to the Other Used-to-be-a-Man.

This time I entered girded for battle with her. As soon as she said "I hate you" and "you take the children", my armor fell off.

I have sinced re-grouped and am taking her to task on reconciliation. It will be full and complete or not at all. We discussed living as roommates until the girls graduate, but I eventually woke up and summarily rejected that approach.

It's all or nothing. She either dedicates herself to rebuilding what we can of our marriage or we go to divorce court.

It's the strenght to keep this stance that drains me every day.

Thanks for the support.

Artor, first listen to WAT on the custody issues and the playing hardball. Your WW is using her threats to keep you in line because she knows you are a loving father. Second, please stop calling this "friendship" anything but an EA. Your WW has had a long term affair (LTA) with this OM. No matter how you slice or dice it or dress it up purdy, it is an ugly affair. Keep gaining strength.

Thanks for the recommendation.

I had never thought of it as her using the children as a point of leverage, but I guess that's exactly what she's doing.

Talk about fog.

I will continue to strategize on how to keep the door open to reconciliation yet make it clear that I'm ready for the worst.

Thanks

So what about telling the wives of the other men?

Not only is this a humane responsibility, it's an extremely effective exposure strategy.

Don't put this off.

WAT