My credo, my personal belief, is to "Do No Harm" whenever possible. I have at times, like most of us, harmed others, and have made amends whenever possible. Heck, I make amends sometimes even when it *isn't* my fault. The thing is: Harm comes covertly sometimes... not on purpose... and I have to accept the consequences of my prior choices and how they might affect people healing NOW.

My story is seriously all over these boards, and if you know it already you can skip this paragraph. I met my H while both of us were separated, living apart from our prior spouses, divorces filed, and our prior spouses were with others (his was living with her OM in their marital home). As I've said many, many, many times before, this is something I have had to make peace with -- the idea that my marriage is an "affair marriage."

While the threads going on right now have nothing to do with me personally, they do hit a chord for me, obviously. Last night, several threads began about the harm that having affair marriages on this site bring to the majority who post here.

I had been praying about this for the last three days, because I could sense the tenor of the board. The threads right now are a response to what's been going on for some time, lately.

I have chosen to back away from MB (not saying "goodbye" but removing myself and the potential for harm to others).

Will you do the same?

As a Christian, I am forgiven. I know this in my bones. I have made my amends. However, the consequences for my choices will ALWAYS remain... and perhaps this is the most difficult part of my life to live... the continual consequences for something I chose to do six years ago. But it is the reality.

To anyone who stumbles in here who isn't in an affair marriage: This is not a plea for acceptance. It's something I have prayed about and believe in my soul. I wish to bring NO HARM. My presense here has the HUGE potential (at this time) to bring harm. That is not who I am - not by a longshot.

Even worse than this---she chose to ignore "K" and his terrific, always-spot-on-advice... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

And I still love her anyway. Because the world is not always black and white.

K,

My H and I value your friendship more than you know...

(((((K)))))

Hey, right back at ch'... but <guilt> how come you don't return my emails </guilt>??

We're on vacation starting next week. If kathi show's up, she'll know where... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i believe that an "affair marraige" is one that breaks up a marraige.....even if it's only ONE of the partners who still believe in the marriage.....

i do not believe that a marriage like yours is an affair marriage.....where BOTH partners, of both marriages have decided that the marriage/partnership has ended and have divorced or are in the process of divorce and each person has begun to move on

any others here agree with my opinion?

The sticky thing is "move on". I strongly believe in the "do nothing for 2 years after you've divorced" policy, because that "moving on" part is not always the straight path apart that one might imagine.

In NB's case I would suggest that while her relationship with her husband began way too soon, it didn't substantially contribute to the demise of the marriage. But the circumstances have certainly added challenges to the people involved.

And while I can completely understand why folks would want to see all affair marriages fail (as defined by you, eav)---drive that success percentage from 3% to 0%---and I have been known to feel that way at times too, there are times where you need to look at the poster and the situation and see if:

1. You want to help

2. You can contribute

There are some folks who will show up here where it'll be a waste of time (you just want to slap them silly), but most of those people will leave if they're not getting the attention they seek.

Hey K, we wrote back... and told ya we looked forward to your annual vacation pix. So guilt me all ya want... not biting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> PS: You have mail. (I suppose that means it worked. No gloating)

eav,

Well... you're not alone in your thinking... clearly, since most people tell me the same thing. But you know, harm comes in many forms, and I believe that this is one time I really need to stop and ask myself if my being here *brings* it on... and I believe it does.

But thank you for caring enough to write your thoughts. I appreciate that.

"you" believe it does.....but who here says your presence is hurting them?

do you know how i see it?

If you really were someone who had the feelings and beliefs of a person who would involve themselves in a real "affair"....if you believed you were "special, different, entitled and you didn't care who you hurt to get what you wanted".......like a person who gets involved in an affair does......

you would not be offerring and willing to leave here so that others are not hurt by your presence

(the others here who ARE in affair marraiges DO NOT feel they should leave even though thye have been taold they are hurting others here)

I agree eav....but how do you think she got to this point? Don't you think being here was an enormous part of her transformation? NB didn't start out where she is now. She evolved.

nope cause i don't believe her marraige started as an affair marraige as i posted above

Hi star, Hi again, eav,

K is right... Not that he's special (though he is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), but he just has some added insight because he was here back then, like I was, like a few of us still here were. (That sounds confusing!) He watched as I made these decisions. He was angry with me at first and not the least bit shy in telling me so. I made a right mess of things, believe me.

Star is right, too, that I've evolved. And I like who I am *right now*... do I like my prior choices? No. Do I like that I hurt people? No. Do I like that my very presense feels hurtful to some people? No. But it's true. And though I can't help who will be hurt by my being here, I can help by backing away at this time (and perhaps longer, if ever I can actually leave this place - it gets under your skin, doesn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

And eav, you are right, too... that I sincerely want to help others avoid the pitfalls I have found ahead of them on the path. My heart is pure in this respect.

Sometimes though, the person saying "Do what I say, not as I did" can cause harm and possibly look hypocritial... and the focus then becomes the "person" not the "message"... this is my fear.

eav,

I know this poster very well, and the particulars of her current marriage....details that newer posters would not know. NB can reveal what she wishes....but I agree with her honest assessment that her marriage would fit the criteria for an A marriage. I've watched her transformation and evolution.....and I'm really really proud of her. I think MB is better with her on it....but I respect her choice to leave if she feels that's part of her personal journey.

pre-evolved .... something to think about (for me)



Pep

Time sure does fly by when you're just sitting here reading.

Star,

Actually, every single sordid detail of the beginnings of my marriage have been shared here at one time or another. I've left nothing out. But I don't want this message to be about the details of my marriage... any more than it already has become...

I had hoped that my post here would encourage those who might have had an inkling (a still small voice, a stab of conscience, perhaps) that their presense here *may be* causing harm. I was hoping that they would feel validation for those feelings, and stop to think.

Nothing more, nothing less.

This really isn't about me. But, it has touched me. Perhaps it has touched others. I'm sure you understand.

I never expected a discussion about whether or not my marriage is an affair marriage, since I said it was. But eav, I really do appreciate your thoughts on it.

I am honestly feeling weary now... drained. Evolving or not, this kind of self-dissection is painful and tiring.

n_b,

I know that your intent with this thread was not to start an n_b fan wagon, but I agree with Star*. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If being in a stabilized *A* marriage creates an entrenchment of entitlement that will not change (as some folks have suggested).....how do we explain where NB is now?

NB....yes, I knew that....which is why I didn't share the details. I know you aren't hiding them or omitting them for any purpose....they were secondary to the message. eav can believe you....or not.

Perhaps some have, but I can honestly say I've never even considered NBII's advice as coming from someone in an A-marriage. I see her giving advice from the perspective of a FBS and FWS. I think that the perspective and experience of FWS's adds greatly to this board.

I think if we start getting really specific about whom *we* think should be giving advice/sharing experiences here on MB....well, that's a slippery slope, IMO. Who am I (or any of us) to say that someone's perspective is unworthy or unwanted here.

Maybe it's just 'cause I like NBII so much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, but I think we really need posters like her on this board. She really has been there, done that....she knows stuff that can be invaluable to those trying to get to recovery.

That being said, I also think NBII should do exactly what's best for her . If pulling back from MB is best, then I certainly respect that decision. I don't have to like it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, but I do respect it.

Lori

Hi NB,

Very nice of you to offer, but sorry NO DICE. You cannot leave just for the reasons you stated as needing to. You have evolved, you have learned and you have enriched peoples lives.

Has there been a cost? You bet.

I'm glad K is back to keep you honest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> As well as Pep, Star, and others.

I am going to say something here because I feel it very strongly. And I think your thread opened a door that should be carefully considered.

I cannot help how people "feel", I often understand how they "feel", sometimes I don't and just accept how they "feel". I understand that affairs are the enemy. But, I believe very strongly that life is about learning, and growing.

We all don't do it the same way. The arguements on this board have bothered me because this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not Fundamentalist MARRIAGE BUILDERS, Jewish Marriage Builders, not Agnostic Marriage Builders. If someone is in a legal marriage, then it is a marriage. Heck we even help people here are just "living" together. We help people here who have fathered children outside of marriage and their current marriage. We help people here that have become pregnant with OM's child. Why?

Because they come here and ask for help in rebuilding their marriage...their legal marriage. Who helps? Those that feel they can, those that this situation does not harm personally, those that think it is their duty.

NB, you should not leave unless you just tire of this place.

But let me ask you a personal question. Has the begining of your relationship and marriage ever bothered you? Has it been a carefree and easy marriage? Has it not challenged you in many ways to grow?

My point is that as K pointed out 3% of affair marriages make it. Those that do are probably not all just deliriously happy. Doesn't everyone think that is punishment enough, if indeed they feel punishment is due?

I'd don't know how to politically say what I truly think. I'll just say that if one has a belief in a Supreme Being, then they ought to trust the Supreme Being to handle many of these situations and not try to pretend THEY have the power or authority to act for this Being.

Sorry NB I'll get off my box now. As you can tell I am very bothered by this situation. It bothers me more to think you would leave because you felt you are not welcome or deserved to be here. You are and you do, in my humble opinion.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I don't think the *main* reason NB is leaving is because she feels she's not welcome or deserves to be here....I think she is trying to show grace/compassion, and she hopes others in the same sitch will follow her example...and leave with her. That's a noble cause....but what *I* REALLY hope they follow....is not her EXIT....but her transformation.

The arguements on this board have bothered me because this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS, not Fundamentalist MARRIAGE BUILDERS, Jewish Marriage Builders, not Agnostic Marriage Builders. If someone is in a legal marriage, then it is a marriage. Heck we even help people here are just "living" together. We help people here who have fathered children outside of marriage and their current marriage

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

really...

Amen...

ARK