I need some advice please. My husband is on his 2nd affair. He ended the first EA/PA in January '06. For a few months after that, we tried to work out our relationship. During Easter, he apologized to me, showed sincerity in his remorse and seemed to be back to his old self. In May, I felt that he was changing again and he was back in the fog. My intuition told me that he may be in contact with OW#1, so I planted a recorder in his car. I found out that he's talking/flirting with a girl from his old high school instead. I wanted to learn more about this new person so I checked his email and found out that he was indeed still in contact with OW#1. He sent her a nude pic of himself and when I confronted him about this, he told me it was just a trip and all for fun. I kept checking his other email (he didn't know i was able to do this) and found out that the girl from high school is now his OW#2. She has messages for him both on the phone and email, calling him babe (same as OW#1) and that she loves him so much. I hope i'm not confusing you, but when I found out he sent that nude pic, I left the house with the kids and he begged us to come back. We came back because I still had hope for us. But when I found out about OW#2, I tried to do Plan B. I sent him a letter and he agreed with me. It was a shock to me that he came back to the house and did not honor my request for him to leave. I have not done anything since because I thought he will leave. But he's still at home and he's torturing me because he's been going to parties with old friends and either coming home late or not at all. I'm trying to cover up for him for the sake of the children but I just cannot do anymore. I'm starting to despise him and I can't even look at him without disgust. Should I just kick him out again? I'm so confused. I have so many fears about how all this will impact my kids. Please help!

My wife has had two physical affairs and one emotional affair. I've had the same doubts and questions.

Unfortunately, I didn't know about Marriage Builders so I didn't have the resources of Plan A/Plan B at my disposal.

I think, and I'm not an expert or as skilled as others here, that he has not demonstrated that he respects you, your marriage or your family enough to deserve to spend time with you.

I believe Plan B (as I understand it) is in order to get him to make some definitive changes. He clearly must stop the partying and spend time demonstrating you and your children are the most important things in his life. I don't know how to handle the situation of him not willing to leave -- some of the more experienced heads on here will have to say if it's a smart thing for you to pack up the kids and leave. He needs an emotional 2x4 upside hit head!

Have you done counseling (for you individually and as a couple)?

Do you have any idea if there was something that triggered this behavior? From your signature and post it appears you were pregnant during the first emotional affair (or around that time period). Do you think this had anything to do with his childish behavior?

I wish you well and offer that there is hope. Hang in there.

Artor, thanks so much for your response.

I have been on couseling twice but my husband refused to go. I asked him in the beginning of his 1st affair and again last month. He told me that we're "beyond that" and that he doesn't think it will help us anymore.
The only thing I could think of as triggering this behavior would be my graduating from nursing school in May. He started his 1st affair when I went back to school. He blamed my being too busy studying as the reason to why he was "forced" to have this affair. I got pregnant during that time also and he labeled it as a betrayal on my part. First of all, I've always supported him on everything whether it be his career or school. He also knew about my plans on going back to school and my reasons behind it. I've always wanted to become an R.N. (which I am now, thank God) and the benefits salary-wise will help secure my children's future education. I've been told by many people that he might be jealous of me. But i'm not one to undermine him with my new accomplishment. I actually try to downplay this as to not make him uncomfortable.

I'm very hurt by his continued disrespect of me and the children. I'm praying all day and all night because what I want is whatever is in the best interest of the kids. If my kids will be hurt by divorce or separation, then I will try to stick with him. But if they will be hurt more if we're together, then I will not hesitate to leave him. It's so hard to make a decision because we do not see the big picture. I am hanging in there though. Btw, are you still together with your wife?

I feel for you.

Yes, I am still together with my wife. It has been (is) rocky terrain, though.

Yesterday I called the wives of the men she was in contact with despite our agreement that she would not have anything to do with them. It was difficult, but I feel that they deserved the knowledge and their marriages were being undermined by my wife and their husband's conduct. I also knew I would want someone to tell me if I was the one in the dark.

I told my wife afterward that I did this and she was very cold toward me (I had to use the ice scraper on the inside of my car it was so cold). We are still rebuilding and she, much like your husband, is in a fog and not thinking straight. She doesn't want to (won't) acknowledge the wisdom of getting things out in the open to deal with them.



Your efforts to protect and shield your children are heroic.

My reasons for staying with my wife after her first physical affair were much like yours -- I still loved her and I had young elementary school daughters to think about. They needed a complete family and divorce would forever mark them in some way. We never told our children about any of my wife's affairs. They know we had arguments, but that's about it. As far as I know, they don't know how close we came to divorce several times. I don't know if that will change in the future . . . that's in my wife's hands now.

At some point, however, Plan B requires taking steps that will alert the children that something is wrong. I'm all for age-appropriate information. Knowing that their daddy is fooling around may not be appropriate, but knowing that mommy and daddy are having problems and daddy needs some time away may be all they need to know for now. Even at 17 and 16 years old, if my children need to be told about my wife's affairs I will tell them only what they need to know to understand the situation. The gory details will be withheld -- they're not appropriate.

Hopefully, some other more veteran members can distract themselves from the swirl regarding who should and who shouldn't post on this board and offer you some advice on when to move from Plan A to Plan B and what to do if your husband won't leave.

There is hope -- despite what has happened in my marriage I still recognize the promise that I can help my wife become the woman she was when we first married. I still love her.

Best of luck and I'll be praying for you.

Gem,

Welcome to MB. I recommend you read the concepts section above, then the books: Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs. Both are by Dr Harley. There's another book called Love must be tough by Dobson which is good for those headed towards plan B.

Learn and create your own plan A first. Create your personal support group (including your children - even the little one c/b a part of that group). Reassure your children of your love and support of them. Secure your finances. Find a good MC familar with MB principals or call Steve H @ MB. Steve can help you put a plan together.

Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart along with lots of patience. Identify your personal boundaries and implement them. Remember these changes are for you 1st, for the M 2nd.

Then be prepared to kick some WS butt. See you don't want a WS or any such attitude in your family. Instead you should want your real H back.

Learn to recognize Ws babble and learn to kick it back with tools like reverse babble. I like this tool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Don't take his guilt. Learn to give it back to him.

I admire your efforts to take care of your family. While your H may have been offended seeing you grow that was NO excuse to have an A. Now that's a perfect example of WS babbling.

Let us know how you are doing.

take care,
L.

Gem,

Welcome.....I'm sorry you're here, but we're happy to have you. Please do a good Plan A before moving to Plan B. All the things Orchid mentioned above (getting all your ducks in a row) can be done simultaneously so that when you're ready to go to Plan B you can. In the meantime, please read all you can about Plan A.

here is an excellent post by Pepperband about Plan A:

***********************
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

*****************************

this is from Dr. Harley:

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

*************************************

Who knows about these affairs? Are these women married?

Gem, welcome to MB. It sounds like your H never really dealt with the reasons he had A #1 and so just jumped into A #2. My H had 3 A's in a 5 year span. OW #2 had a child as a result of that A. My H and I are now in very early recovery. It is a long, rocky road but it can be done.

How old are your children? Is your H spending marital money on the affairs? Have you exposed the affairs. Are either of the women married?

I think exposure would be a great tool for you right now.

Parents, siblings, family, friends, the people he's going out with at night, anyone who can put pressure on him to end the A's ... let them all know and ask them for their help.

I'd expose to both the OW's, too .... scare them a little to know that you know and that you're not taking it lying down. But the bigger impact would probably come from letting them each know that not only is he cheating on you with them, he's cheating on each of them with another OW. I'm sure they won't be happy at all about that.

Follow the advice above and get a plan in place ... it makes the day-to-day decisions and new discoveries and situations a little easier to bear.

I am so sorry that you need to be here. Hopefully you will find some direction and peace when you need it most.

I would start your journey here by reading all that there is to read. Read about Plans A & B. YOu may have to go right to plan B. I'm not sure.

Your H obviously has some issues that he needs to deal with. THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

I would make an appointment with the harley's. Call and set up IC for yourself too. The best thing you can do right now is to take care of you and your kids. Expect nothing from the alien that is occupying your H's body.

Find ways to get stress out. Exercise... begin now... rather than when you are really in the throves of a depression that can be caused by this stuff. You deserve happiness and this is in no way your doing. He made these bad choices. His responses to you have been high school equivalent maturity!!! Do not stand for it.

Talk to the Harley's. Get a blueprint for where to go from here. Your H is abusing you in the most cruel way. Find out what your rights are through an attorney.

And last....but certainly first on your list....EXPOSE. This should be done swiftly... without warning and to EVERYONE that could impact the situation. And I mean EVERYONE.

Take care and again, I am sorry you need to be here.

This is what your story sounds like.



You are married to a philanderer whose womanizing exploits define his manhood. He is self-absorbed and will act on anything that will stroke his pleasure centers, no matter what the cost, no matter who becomes collateral damage. He blames YOU for forcing him to sexually engage these women, but the real fact is that it is “he” who is doing all the f’kg.



What is especially troublesome is that he is a repeat offender and that perhaps makes him a habitual criminal. What is encouraging is that it sounds that he is not emotionally invested in these women as much as he is physically invested. For him, it is not fog; it is who he really is. The big question is what do you do about it? How do you find out if there are redeeming values suppressed in your husband?



First off, you should not be made to suffer day in and day out without end as your husband stuffs his face with cake. Harley talks about Plan A and Plan B. What I like best about his approach is that it allows you to live a life with some purpose while giving you the best shot at saving your marriage. If the marriage does die you will be left emotionally armed and able to best deal with it. You may be ready for Plan B at this point.



It also seems that as I read your posts you have been absorbing your current state and that reality is slowly causing you to fall out of love with your husband. I suggest to you that this is neither good nor bad but is more a consequence of you gravitating towards coping with your situation. One aspect of Plan B is that is allows you to slow the process of falling out of love with your husband.



Understand one important thing, you are perfectly justified and blameless should you elect to end this marriage. No one will blame you and everyone here will help you through the tough spots. If, however you decide to give it one more effort I suggest that you use the approaches outlined by Harley, quite possibly a Plan B type of approach. Read about Plan A and B and see where exactly you are. Your husband’s cake diet is about to end. Perhaps a little dose of Plan A before going to Plan B, I’m not quite sure what to suggest. With a little education on your end you will know your exact status.



The jest of how you will interact with your husband in the coming weeks and months is that you are the kind, generous and loving woman who, unfortunately for your husband, no longer serves cake. The rest is up to him. The way is difficult and not without disappointments and many highs and lows but know this, you may not see it right now, but your life is about to improve.



I would like to make one more comment regarding your children’s best interest. It has been my observation that a family’s best interests are ALWAYS best served by first taking care of you. Your emotional “well-being” is the absolute best gift you can give your family. It will shower them with confidence make you a role model. Couples that suffer through a failed marriage for the sake of their children solve little in the way of best protecting their children. What’s worse is that the children are NEVER fooled for very long. If you desire to give them the emotional tools that will last a lifetime you must first take care of yourself.

Mr. G

Thank you all so much for taking your time to help me in my situation. I am so overwhelmed by your kindness and support. I am trying to learn as much as I can from this website and considering counseling from Steve Harley.

About Plan A, I don't know if this will work for us now. I tried it last year when I first found out about OW#1. I provided both for his emotional and physical needs. This is when I got pregnant. I really don't know where to stand because when I'm nice and understanding, he takes advantage and continues with the affair. When I get fed up and confront him with the stuff I find out, he accuses me of snooping, not giving him privacy and retaliates by being gone all day. I tried Plan A again from January to May and stopped it when I found out about OW#2 and the nude pic to OW#1.

I have talked to a lawyer about my rights but have not retained services yet because of our financial situation. We have a joint account and he does not get money from here to fuel his affair. He has another account by himself that he uses for this. I don't have access to this at all. He also used his company credit card last year with OW#1 because I found an email about OW#1 lending him money to pay off for the debt he incurred at work.

About exposure, I have exposed to all his family members, my family and friends as well as OW#1 friends and families. I have not exposed to OW#2 yet because when I exposed to OW#1, i felt desperate. Is that a normal feeling? Plus, WS gave me such a hard time about it.

I think Plan B is where we're heading to right now. I really cannot do Plan A anymore because i'm so mad at this and I don't see myself to be a loving wife right now. I have stooped down so low and was even desperate before just to keep him because I still did love him. But now, I don't think I can do that anymore. This is the first time I have felt strong and happy. I'm actually putting myself and my kids before WS. I really don't know if I want to give him another chance. Do you think I'm at the end of the rope?
Orchid - I have actually read your babble post about 2weeks ago and I used it with him last Sunday. I felt so strong when I used it because I ended up with the last words. Thanks for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Mr. G, you are so right about my WS. I can literally see him stuffing his face with his cake. He's just not the man I married. I cannot even find a glimpse of who he used to be.

Well, thanks again everyone. I will pray for all of us.

Take care,

Gem

HOney your WS gave your grief about exposure with affair ho numero one because...IT KILLED THE AFFAIR.

rather have an angry and foggy WS than a divorce huh? Or the continuance of the stupid affair right?

Do carrot of A to a T! perfectly.

and also?

STICK THE STICK! EXPOSE OUT YOUR YING YANG!

justpeachy, i'm not sure i can do plan A right now. i feel like i've had it with WS. I'm actually gearing towards separation right now. I have exposed OW#2 to his family and mine but is just now getting info about his and OW#2's circle of friends. As soon as i get their contact info, I will expose to them. Should I talk to OW#2?

Artor, how did your wife handle it when she found out you exposed to the other spouses? In my case, OW#1 is divorced with 1 child. I exposed to her friends and family but not to her ex nor to her parents. She is still in contact with my WS and I think they even saw each other this weekend when he did not come home. I have tons of email and pics of her which I can send to her ex and parents. Does anyone think I should do that? About OW#2, i know she's separated but her kids are in the custody of her husband. I don't know anything about her spouse nor family. I can expose her though to their high school friends and the group they belong to for their upcoming reunion. I do not think OW#2 knows that my WS and I are still married and are still living together. From the recording, my WS told her that we are separated already. Should I call OW#2. I get contrasting advices about this one. But personally, i want to call her right now!

I'm feeling for you -- you're in a tough situation.

In the case of my wife's affairs, each OM had a wife and family that I knew would help establish accountability and keep him "on the right track". Or at least I hoped since only one of them I knew personally (an ex-friend).

The reasons I exposed varied from day to day leading up to the actual exposure.

First, and foremost, I wanted someone to know on his end to keep him away from my wife. Only his wife or family would probably have the ability to do this.

Second, and sometimes more strongly, I wanted him to suffer. I struggled with this motivation on many sleepless nights. He (and my wife) had put me through H*ll and back and I wanted to know that he was going to be miserable, too. I couldn't stand the thought of my wife and I going through the pain of this and him "getting away with it". By the time I actually made the calls, however, I believe I had sufficiently supressed this desire and didn't want to bring pain into the OM's family, but wanted someone to help keep him out of mine.

So, I would ask you to think about what you hope will come out of the disclosure. If you're leaning toward my second reason, then I think you should take a step back. Your motivation will color the manner and method of your disclosure.

I would focus disclosure on those that you know she would not want to be aware that she was continuing the relationship with your husband. They will help keep her accountable.

As far as how my wife handled it -- it was messy.

She still, to this day, resents me for disclosing her first physical affair to the youth pastor at our church. In truth I was meeting with him to discuss some summer activities for our youth group and broke down during the meeting. My wife and the OM both worked in the youth group as music leaders and I just couldn't handle the burden of knowing this alone anymore. Of course having the pastor know caused all sorts of ripples -- none of which I regret starting in retrospect.

The most recent exposure was met with some of the same resentment. She has already demanded that I have no further contact with either of the OMs or their wives. I unfortunately agreed to this, but will probably be telling her I have to change that agreement if one of the wives calls with information I need to know.

When you disclose, it reduces the number of people that your WH can feel comfortable around. He knows other people know he has cheated on the woman he pledged his love to and assumes they have told other people about him. This can cause some resentment and make them feel trapped. How you deal with him and his feelings during this time are pretty important.

Good luck.